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Italian Tanks and Military Vehicles

italian tank tree heavy medium light tank destroyer artillery semovente carro armato

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rivit #881 Posted Jun 19 2013 - 20:06

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^ I can't make much sense of that. If they're in discussion with someone from a fan based tree, then maybe the EU forum has someone they're talking to.

Edited by rivit, Jan 31 2014 - 15:32.


sp15 #882 Posted Jun 19 2013 - 20:11

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i think they are talking to digensu (hupefully i spelled that right) over at the japanese tank & guns discussion

rivit #883 Posted Jun 19 2013 - 20:15

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^ you got a nice Swedish tree in your signature up there ^. I like it :smile:

Edited by rivit, Jan 31 2014 - 15:32.


sp15 #884 Posted Jun 19 2013 - 20:22

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View Postrivit, on Jun 19 2013 - 20:15, said:

^ you got a nice Swedish tree in your signature up there ^. I like it  :smile:
thanks im glad you like it

ive put quite a bit of time into it...
although i should probobly put some more time on writing descriptions.
and porting as much of the up to date information from the post on the european forum over to the american one

but other than that im quite proud of it

Edited by sp15, Jun 19 2013 - 20:23.


Imperator_Gallogrecia #885 Posted Jun 19 2013 - 20:29

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On SS' blog serb talked about the gl-4 maybe he saw it of us i posted the link on pg 30-42 cant remember

sp15 #886 Posted Jun 19 2013 - 20:36

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i dont think serb  does browse the american forums often.
and i think what serb said refers directly to the japanese tree & guns discussion.
while also making the point that fan trees contain a lot of bad or mis information.

thats my interpretation anyhow.

Vollketten #887 Posted Jun 19 2013 - 21:44

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View Postsp15, on Jun 19 2013 - 20:36, said:

i dont think serb  does browse the american forums often.
and i think what serb said refers directly to the japanese tree & guns discussion.
while also making the point that fan trees contain a lot of bad or mis information.

thats my interpretation anyhow.

Yes, upon reflection I think you are right but considering the traffic on this thread alone and the information/verification and sourcing I thing we at least deserve some recognition.

BTW: I too like your Swedish tree tpp, if he (SerB) was seriously considering an Argentinian line then he can't ignore Italy or Sweden and for that matter Czechoslovakia too.

Vollketten #888 Posted Jun 20 2013 - 16:50

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edit

Edited by Vollketten, Oct 27 2017 - 20:28.


lostwingman #889 Posted Jun 20 2013 - 16:52

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View Postsp15, on Jun 19 2013 - 20:11, said:

i think they are talking to digensu (hupefully i spelled that right) over at the japanese tank & guns discussion
They are because WG doesn't have crap for Japanese sources.

View PostVollketten, on Jun 19 2013 - 21:44, said:

Yes, upon reflection I think you are right but considering the traffic on this thread alone and the information/verification and sourcing I thing we at least deserve some recognition.
WG has a serious lack of Japanese info and contacts. I don't think they are short of Italians in Italy that can speak Italian and English.

Slakrrrrrr #890 Posted Jun 20 2013 - 16:58

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Volketten, wouldn't this make a better tier 2 SPG than the L3/35 Brixia?

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It apparently was an italian self propelled gun with a 75mm howitzer. It would make sense for this to precede the FT-17 105/14 because of how similar it is, and the 75mm howitzer would perform with it's peers much better than the Brixia IMHO.

edit: Just realized the third image is different from the first two (gun is pointing forward on the hull), derp.

Edited by Slakrrrrrr, Jun 20 2013 - 17:06.


Vollketten #891 Posted Jun 20 2013 - 17:16

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Edited by Vollketten, Oct 27 2017 - 20:28.


Vollketten #892 Posted Jun 20 2013 - 17:23

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Edited by Vollketten, Oct 27 2017 - 20:28.


Slakrrrrrr #893 Posted Jun 20 2013 - 17:27

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View PostVollketten, on Jun 20 2013 - 17:16, said:

Undoubtedly the gun would be more powerful than the puny Brixia mortar but I was under the impression that this was a French vehicle using the Schneider gun.. If it is Italian it will go on the tree without a doubt.
Looking back, I'm pretty sure the first two pictures are the Italian SPG, while the last two are probably French (the one in the fourth picture was created in 1918).

Also, a lot of the stuff on wesworld is fanmade, created by photoshop modelers.

Edited by Slakrrrrrr, Jun 20 2013 - 17:31.


Vollketten #894 Posted Jun 20 2013 - 17:37

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View PostSlakrrrrrr, on Jun 20 2013 - 17:27, said:

Looking back, I'm pretty sure the first two pictures are the Italian SPG, while the last two are probably French (the one in the fourth picture was created in 1918).
If you or me or anyone can find a reliable source lets stick it in.

View PostSlakrrrrrr, on Jun 20 2013 - 17:27, said:

Also, a lot of the stuff on wesworld is fanmade, created by photoshop modelers.
That's what it looked like I just wanted to be sure because things didn't make sense.

sp15 #895 Posted Jun 20 2013 - 19:04

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http://forum.axishis...p?f=31&t=151845
there is a post over here that may have some additional info on the ft17 spg

actually according to this site
http://gunter-spb.li...om/1355899.html

exuse me for using google translate but

And this, I am not afraid of the word - art. Yes, the 75-mm-based art mentioned in the previous post Renault FT-17 - a miracle of technology shows Marshal Ferdinand Foch (his excellency the top).
Separately, we note that the shot that art is not forward but backward, that is, the barrel pointing towards the stern. I am a very bad idea how produced loading, and what had mehvody whose door is aligned with the breech. (and most importantly, how he had climbed?).

and as you can imagne ferdinand foch was not italian
https://en.wikipedia.../Ferdinand_Foch

this site has some nice pictures of different variants though
http://bbs.tiexue.ne..._5595668_1.html

and according to this site

http://interbellumim...01_archive.html

"THE TRUTH did not provide any further information about these prototypes, and their country or countries of origin are unknown. Only time will tell if these prototypes are the progenitors of a whole new breed of self-propelled artillery"

Edited by sp15, Jun 20 2013 - 19:16.


Slakrrrrrr #896 Posted Jun 20 2013 - 19:40

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1. Ferdinand Foch is the namesake of the French tier 9 TD, is he not?

2. I think I might have found the proof we were looking for:

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Vollketten #897 Posted Jun 20 2013 - 19:42

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Edited by Vollketten, Oct 27 2017 - 20:29.


Vollketten #898 Posted Jun 20 2013 - 19:48

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View PostSlakrrrrrr, on Jun 20 2013 - 19:40, said:

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nice find, I tried to enlarge the text and then look up 'Seccion Tecnica de Automotives de Vicennnes' (STAV) and end up in a loop going back to the French 75mm field gun all the time.

Edited by Vollketten, Jun 20 2013 - 19:48.


Slakrrrrrr #899 Posted Jun 20 2013 - 19:56

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View PostVollketten, on Jun 20 2013 - 19:42, said:

Personally I think the two guns should just be options on the same chassis at that tier. I still like the idea of a truly different small very fast light punching fast firing arty at Tier II just to change up peoples play styles from the norm but you are correct. There is no reason this couldn't be there as well I just think having a genuine second gun mount option would be better.
The designs of the hulls are slightly different, so I still think the one with the French 75 (Semovente 75/36 perhaps?) should be tier 2, with the Semovente 105/14 being tier 3 with the Mle. 1897 as the stock gun. Maybe the Brixia could be a tier 2 premium SPG?

Vollketten #900 Posted Jun 20 2013 - 19:57

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okay definitive at last:

"Renault FT Self-Propelled Guns
by Charlie Clelland
The problem of moving artillery in support of any advance across the trenches on the Western Front was identified by the French Army as a central issue in 1915. The inability of horse drawn or wheeled vehicles to traverse the terrain of no-man's land and shell cratered trench systems was obvious which left only tracked vehicles as a viable alternative. French industry prompted by the Ministry of Munitions and Army High Command explored just about all possible options for moving artillery with tracked vehicles. Some of these studies resulted in vehicles which were placed in production such as the Renault FB artillery portee vehicle and the Schneider CD heavy towing vehicle. Although these vehicles mostly solved the problem of transporting artillery over bad ground it was clear there was still a delay once artillery pieces had been delivered before the artillery could go into action due to the set up time. The St Chamond SPGs offered a solution for bringing heavy guns into action quickly, although to modern eyes a speed of 2.5 km/hr requires a redefinition of "quickly". There remained a similar problem for light field guns and howitzers.
The start of production of the light Renault FT tank in 1917 offered a possible solution to the deployment of light field guns on tracked vehicles based on the FT chassis. By May 1918 studies were underway to use turretless FT tanks with light guns such as the 75mm Mle 1897 field gun and 105mm Mle 1913 howitzer fitted. At the end of August 1918 the French Army GHQ received and approved these studies. On 3 Sept 1918 a specification was issued for a vehicle based on the Renault FT with the 75mm Mle 1897 field gun with a crew of 4 (driver plus gun crew), carrying 100 rounds of ammunition and a total weight of 5 - 6 tonnes. In response to the specification three prototypes were built. The intent was to construct an SPG which could be used for counter-battery fire and in an anti-tank role.

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Renault FT SPG
The first SPG produced was designed by Renault and tested by them in August 1918 and handed over for official testing at Bourges, the French Army proving ground, on 18 Sept 1918. The vehicle was extremely minimal. The gun was limited to fire over the rear of the SPG and could only be moved in the vertical plane (-4° to +24°) which limited the max. range of the 75mm gun, there was a control which allowed the whole vehicle to be turned for gun traverse, the details of how this worked are unknown. The driver had to exit the vehicle before firing and the accommodation for the two man gun crew was an unprotected pair of seats on top of the SPG. 40 rounds of ammunition were stored in boxes on top of the engine compartment. Although the Renault SPG was found to be quite stable and met the criteria established for mobility over bad ground the poor ergonomics and smaller than specification ammunition capacity meant it was rejected by the French Army.

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STAV SPG

With the rejection of the Renault SPG, Army Headquarters requested that the "section technique automobile de Vincennes" (STAV) study an SPG with capacity to carry 150 rounds of ammunition (half a day's firing) and using the Gramme naval mounting for the 75mm gun. The front of an FT chassis was cut down and the gun mount installed on the reinforced floor of the chassis. The driver was relocated to the centre of the vehicle, similar to the unsuccessful Renault prototype for Renault FT 75 BS. The gun crew had a unprotected bench across the rear of the chassis. The prototype was built by Renault and had a 360° traverse and elevation -8° to +40° although at elevations above +10° the gun had to be fired over the rear of the vehicle. The ammunition capacity was 120 rounds. The first, and only, prototype was finalised on 9 Oct 1918.


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STA SPG

The last FT SPG design was that of the "section technique de l'artillerie" (STA) which had been studying SPG design since May 1918. This was a much more elaborate design with the engine moved to the centre of the chassis and the driver also in a central location. The rear of the FT chassis was opened out to create a platform for the gun crew and the gun was mounted to fire over the front of the vehicle. The gun could be elevated from -5° to +41° with 11° of traverse. The SPG could carry 90 rounds of ammunition. The SPG appears to have been built by Renault and was sent to Bourges in late October 1918. Later modifications to the STA SPG included extending the rear platform, adding a folding spade to prevent movement of the vehicle during firing and the addition of a Hotchkiss MG presumably for local defence.



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Renault Munitions Vehicle
One of the problems with operating SPGs with quick firing guns was that of ammunition supply. Renault produced a prototype of a tracked munitions vehicle with a central drivers position and an open compartment with a hinged gate at the front. The volume of the compartment was 1.5m x 1.05m x 0.9m. The track spacing was slightly increased compared to the FT tank. Only one prototype was produced but it's hard to see a role for such a vehicle when the existing Renault FB and Schneider CD could carry much more ammunition.


The fate of the Renault SPGs
The STA/STAV SPGs fell foul of politics. General Herr, Inspector General of Artillery, opposed the SPGs since he believed that towing guns with tracked tractors was a better solution. He managed to convince Gen Pétain, the commander in chief who opposed the production of a trial batch of 4 SPGs proposed by the Ministry of Munitions on 6 Nov 1918. However, the SPGs had supporters. General Sainte-Claire Deville, Inspector General of Ordnance, strongly supported tracked artillery in Dec 1918. Pétain avoided a confrontation by calling for more studies of the competing views. By the time these were completed the war was long over and the FT tank was considered to be close to obsolete so proposals to build enough STA and STAV SPGs to properly evaluate them were never taken up.

Source
The primary information for this article came from:
François Vauvillier "1916-18 des Chenilles pour le 75" in  "Histoire de Guerre Blindés & Materiel"  No. 89, Oct-Dec 2009, pp.70-74.
There are very few images of the Renault SPGs available especially of the STAV and STA types - the period images have been taken from the cited source.

How to Model this Gun
As far as is known no models exist of the Renault SPGs

URL for this page
http://www.landships...nault_SPGs.html "

Edited by Vollketten, Jun 20 2013 - 19:58.





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