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A Different Way to Rework Arty?


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BattlecryGWJ #1 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 21:45

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Arty seems to have been a significant source of complaints since I started watching the forums.  Having gained some experience myself and shared various opinions in threads started by others on the topic, I thought I'd present my thoughts in my own thread.

Is arty the issue, or is the implementation the issue?
It seems like the complaints about arty (easy mode/hyper accurate death stars/god mode) stem mainly from the general impression that artillery was more of a strategic asset (targeting an area) rather than a tactical one (targeting a small object) while the implementation in the game is more of a tactical implementation.

If I recall correctly, when artillery targeted a single stationary object (mg nest, tank, etc) data indicated that generally only 1 shell out of every 6 fired would actually score a "kill" against the target.  Now, I'm aware that this is a game with the point being to have fun for the players so that they spend money so the publisher makes a profit.  This causes deviations from what is historical to balance the game towards what is good for everyone, but I believe that changes can be implemented in arty to restore the strategic nature of the weapon while maintaining the playability of the unit (and the game itself).

Proposal
I'll start with the nerfs:
  • Make arty significantly less accurate (ie: change from 0.5m to 1.5m)
  • Make it so arty has to "deploy" to fire, meaning that the hull cannot be rotated without going through a re-deploy process.
Buffs:
  • Make arty fire significantly faster (at least x2 rof, with an ammo capacity increase as well and ammo cost decreases)
  • Decrease the aim time somewhat.
  • Increase the XP coefficient that arty gets (since they should be doing less damage they'll need more XP for the damage they are doing and this would also reduce the grinding needed to move up the arty trees)
This should make arty into more of a strategic resource where you have an area of effect, instead of the specific tank targeting.  It makes the initial positioning of arty more important as relocating takes you out of the action for a longer period of time than it does currently.  It does increase the "spray and pray" nature of arty, so it wouldn't eliminate the "easy mode" aspect of complaints, but people may be less vocal since getting hit by arty becomes more about them wandering into the kill zone than arty singling them out.

This reduces some of the satisfaction of arty on the "nailed the bastard" type, but it will improve the ability to deal with massed enemy units, so it should be a roughly even trade-off there.  Also, if you increase the XP earned on artillery (or maintain it while reducing the XP needed to progress), the arty population will likely decrease somewhat as I imagine there are other players like myself who are merely playing arty because it is there, rather than because they actually enjoy it.  If I could spend less time "grinding" arty and more time playing what I wanted to, I would (granted, to many this may mean that I'm playing the game "wrong", but so be it).

What are the community's thoughts?

tvanderhart #2 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 21:47

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This has been said before.  Try the search bar.  It's not a bad idea, just not completely new.

itsdavyjones #3 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 21:49

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Ok, so you want to make arty worse then it is in 8.3, because I see much less arty now due to the decrease in splash, because you do barley any damage with splashes now.  The only tier 8 arty less affected was the object 261 due to it being fairly accurate as it is, but the GWE and the t92 got hit hard.

BattlecryGWJ #4 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 21:56

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View Postitsdavyjones, on Jan 22 2013 - 21:49, said:

Ok, so you want to make arty worse then it is in 8.3, because I see much less arty now due to the decrease in splash, because you do barley any damage with splashes now.  The only tier 8 arty less affected was the object 261 due to it being fairly accurate as it is, but the GWE and the t92 got hit hard.

I'd probably say that if arty is truly implemented as a strategic asset then modifications to the splash would have to be investigated.  I suspect that the radius would likely need to be increased, with some kind of damage received calculation based on distance from blast.

Edit: That said, from the tier 5's I've been playing since 8.3 was brought out, I haven't noticed significant issues, though I haven't personally played any tier 7 or 8 arty, which I understand is where many of the complaints have originated from.

Edited by BattlecryGWJ, Jan 22 2013 - 21:58.


skcuf #5 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 21:57

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I proposed basically the same thing a few months back but my thread got locked :/. Either way the only difference I had was elimination of the line back to the arty and the dots around the center letting them know if they're going to hit something. It's too much info.

My uncle recommended having them fire multiple quick shots only aiming with the mini map which I would also find fun and more realistic.

BattlecryGWJ #6 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 22:04

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View Postskcuf, on Jan 22 2013 - 21:57, said:

My uncle recommended having them fire multiple quick shots only aiming with the mini map which I would also find fun and more realistic.

Interesting, alternatively it could be implemented with a full screen version of the minimap... somewhat more accurate but not necessarily overly so.

I also thought about a system where they would ditch the overhead view for arty altogether and go to a system similar to what the old Tribes game used with laser range finders (if I recall correctly if you had a mortar and someone painted a target then your pretty much get an aim point in the sky).

Yodaman2 #7 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 22:05

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  • counter battery.
  • effectively damaging everything within a huge area by some kind of luck.
  • Although true to arty of the time, like you said game before reality, and changing that now would flip the game completely.
  • and so many more small things like the Bat Chat's use....etc etc etc.
Honestly small changes like not being able to see when terrain is damage/destroyed, trees knocked over, and such would be a decent nerf to arty...although more prone to CW play as most Pubs don't know how to or just can't.

But to give my own opinion, changing how you aim your artillery and what you see through the above head sight (like I said before) could easily remove the arty OP-ness.

Edited by Yodaman2, Jan 22 2013 - 22:15.


Yodaman2 #8 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 22:24

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Another interesting rumor that is floating around is the concept of the second kind of arty being (again rumors I could be completely wrong but the concept gets me and is very similar to what you are proposing) worked on. After the scraping of the Sturmtiger there was some chatting of a kind of assault gun line that would be based around the concept of multi-shot artillery that would fire like low tier machine guns or those British bofors, but have some splash to them. Yet most tanks that came up had little to no range so their ability to counter battery would be limited. Another factor would be high arched shots that could be visibly seen coming in giving time for tanks to even react. Cool concept but I doubt it becoming a reality.

David_90539 #9 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 22:27

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I like it, good ideas.  +1

Tiger_Tank_Tim #10 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 22:39

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I only play arty as, more or less, a stress relief vehicle. I like my Hummel, and it seems to have a stinking hard time hitting most things anyway.
Besides, don't hurt arty too much, or there's much less dynamic in the game. Now that I mention it, arty practically IS the dynamic part.

Wedge12475 #11 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 22:39

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Arty needs to be a lot more about splash effects and engaging multiple targets with one shell as opposed to hitting a single target directly. The arty should have a very high splash radius and HIGH rate of fire. It has been suggested that this high rate of fire that more closely emulates artillery barrages in WWII, and to counter, the more frequently you shoot, the less accurate the shots become. Therefore shooting at maximum RPM would have heavy consequences and therefore only be useful for large groups of targets.

Wedge12475 #12 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 22:46

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Additionally it would be more realistic and make more sense with my solution to only provide a general area in which the enemy tank occupies in the bird's eye view.

BeenThat #13 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 22:59

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i am rather confused by all this. i play a fair amount of arty and it is a skill in it's own as it is. the reload is long the aiming slow and the damage has been reduced to almost nothing even with a direct hit and there are no high angle guns for use in city streets which reduce the arty to more or less TD's.

if you are going to raise the fire rate and increase the splash damage the i think you will get even more complaints because of those battles were several arty already make it a challange it will be much worse 4 arty all high splash DAMAGE AND RAPID FIRE i want to be on the arty end of that.

pepe_trueno #14 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 23:03

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View PostBattlecryGWJ, on Jan 22 2013 - 21:45, said:

Arty seems to have been a significant source of complaints since I started watching the forums.  Having gained some experience myself and shared various opinions in threads started by others on the topic, I thought I'd present my thoughts in my own thread.

Is arty the issue, or is the implementation the issue?
It seems like the complaints about arty (easy mode/hyper accurate death stars/god mode) stem mainly from the general impression that artillery was more of a strategic asset (targeting an area) rather than a tactical one (targeting a small object) while the implementation in the game is more of a tactical implementation.

If I recall correctly, when artillery targeted a single stationary object (mg nest, tank, etc) data indicated that generally only 1 shell out of every 6 fired would actually score a "kill" against the target.  Now, I'm aware that this is a game with the point being to have fun for the players so that they spend money so the publisher makes a profit.  This causes deviations from what is historical to balance the game towards what is good for everyone, but I believe that changes can be implemented in arty to restore the strategic nature of the weapon while maintaining the playability of the unit (and the game itself).

Proposal
I'll start with the nerfs:
  • Make arty significantly less accurate (ie: change from 0.5m to 1.5m)
  • Make it so arty has to "deploy" to fire, meaning that the hull cannot be rotated without going through a re-deploy process.
Buffs:
  • Make arty fire significantly faster (at least x2 rof, with an ammo capacity increase as well and ammo cost decreases)
  • shooting the same cuadrant increase acuracy and aim time by 20%, shooting adyacent cuadrans will incur in a 50% penalty of the current stacked bonus and anywhere else will completly reset the bonus.


What are the community's thoughts?
change in red.

reason for that is becouse arty biggest problem is rng, yo can get matchs where you can shoot a sitting mauss all day long and miss while the next match you shoot a target without even aiming and magicaly get his ammorack and 1 shoot him. that being said adding more rng will just suck.

on top of that what needs to be done is a rework on how HE works, current formula use a linear reduction making big calibers hit like a truck while smaller ones do little to no dmg, a % reduction will be much better since it will reduce the exesive dmg of the big ones without completly destroying HE in smaller calibers.

DUKE_AUTY #15 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 23:08

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As it sits now, arty splash is constant on any surface. I would propose that the splash be more real world i.e. hitiing rock or pavement gives a close to horizontal blast but a hit in soft ground or snow will give a more verticle blast reducing the splash area.

Wedge12475 #16 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 23:10

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View PostBeenThat, on Jan 22 2013 - 22:59, said:

i am rather confused by all this. i play a fair amount of arty and it is a skill in it's own as it is. the reload is long the aiming slow and the damage has been reduced to almost nothing even with a direct hit and there are no high angle guns for use in city streets which reduce the arty to more or less TD's.

if you are going to raise the fire rate and increase the splash damage the i think you will get even more complaints because of those battles were several arty already make it a challange it will be much worse 4 arty all high splash DAMAGE AND RAPID FIRE i want to be on the arty end of that.

I did not at all mention high damage, I simply suggested a much larger splash RADIUS. If anything, damage in general would go way down with this philosophy.

rags17 #17 Posted Jan 23 2013 - 00:54

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I posted a similar suggestion a few weeks ago (remove icons from top view minimap, increase ROF and ammo, reduce accuracy) but was shouted down by the usual horde of trolls and forum idiots - good suggestion but realise nothing will ever change because WOT likes it the way it is and the whiny unicums will never agree to anything that allows artillery to remain a viable play opton, no matter what form it takes.

Screw this community.

n4cer67 #18 Posted Jan 23 2013 - 01:47

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The SPG's don't need any more nerfing because they had a major dry screwing in 8.3 update.

Wedge12475 #19 Posted Jan 23 2013 - 18:24

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View Postn4cer67, on Jan 23 2013 - 01:47, said:

The SPG's don't need any more nerfing because they had a major dry screwing in 8.3 update.

This is absolutely not a nerf, I believe most arty are underpowered at the moment. This is just a rework to make arty more entertaining and more realistic to their true purposes in WWII.

n4cer67 #20 Posted Jan 23 2013 - 18:43

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View PostWedge12475, on Jan 23 2013 - 18:24, said:

This is absolutely not a nerf, I believe most arty are underpowered at the moment. This is just a rework to make arty more entertaining and more realistic to their true purposes in WWII.
If 8.3 wasn't a nerf i would hate to see what a nerf did do. The "rework" was nothing but a nerf and the reason most SPG's are underpowered is because of "reworks" like 8.3.