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Is a Draw Better Then a Lose?


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Vonholtz #1 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 12:36

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I was in a match ealyer tonight on stepps. Both side pushed though one flank. I got to the cap just about same time as the first of the tanks on there team. Then was soon followed by another from my team and then another. At this point both teams had about 6 to 7 tanks left and 3 on cap. The rest of the teams charged the middle. But soon after geting to the cap one of the 3 of us on cap ran for the other side to try and reset taking his cap points and droping us to a lose in what would have been a draw.

I was in a M7 and pushed up and took out arty and had to fight a E8 I could not get on the cap faster do to the E8 but I finshed him off with some sniper help and then moved to cap. next tank was a hellcat who stayed on cap. At this point rest the heavys head across the filed to are cap. A cromwell pulled in to cap and finshed off a AFK KV-1 that I was shooting . And at that point the cap was neck and neck, The cromwell took off across the map and we droped way down in the cap and now we only had 2 on cap. He was no closer to geting to are cap then anyone eles was.

So I ask was that player wrong to leave the cap and give us a sure lose or sould they have stayed and taking the draw?

ScottieZippen #2 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 12:39

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You deny the enemy a win which is most cases they didn't earn.  So why the hell not.  If I can't win no one should. 0.o

Boxhawk #3 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 12:39

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A draw is counted as a loss as far as your win rate is concerned, so the cromwell did the right thing.

VladimirsRevenge #4 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 12:46

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View PostBoxhawk, on Feb 03 2013 - 12:39, said:

A draw is counted as a loss as far as your win rate is concerned, so the cromwell did the right thing.

That's not entirely accurate. Although it does lower your win rate, it does not increase your loss rate. Example:

You play 10 games. You draw one game. That makes your win rate 90%, but it also makes your loss rate 0%.

But lets go back and say you lost one game. Then your win rate would be 90%, but your loss rate would be 10%, so the loss actually counts against you where the draw does not. The other thing that draw does is prevent your enemy from getting the bonus points (XP and Money and win rate), so there is something to fight for in the draw rather than just charging in to certain death. That is just plain stupid.

CreepyJanitor #5 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 12:51

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Vlad got it on the money.

jankar #6 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 12:56

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In my opinion Cromwell charge was justified only if there was a slight chance for a victory - reset the enemy cap, while completing own cap. But if by leaving the cap Cromwell denied his team a draw it was not a good move.

Vonholtz #7 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 12:59

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View PostBoxhawk, on Feb 03 2013 - 12:39, said:

A draw is counted as a loss as far as your win rate is concerned, so the cromwell did the right thing.
Keep in mind that at the point he left there was no way to make it in time. The count were both over 50% He did not even get close some the heavys were closer I think.  I would post the replay but there no way with out name shaming the cromwell player by the forums rules.

Vonholtz #8 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 13:00

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View Postjankar, on Feb 03 2013 - 12:56, said:

In my opinion Cromwell charge was justified only if there was a slight chance for a victory - reset the enemy cap, while completing own cap. But if by leaving the cap Cromwell denied his team a draw it was not a good move.
The draw was 100% with him on cap thats for sure. But I realy did not think he could have got there anyfaster then anyone eles.

Firemoth #9 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 13:44

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id play for the draw.

Edited by Firemoth, Feb 03 2013 - 13:45.


Neverwish #10 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 13:44

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Forcing a draw (usually hiding until the timer runs out) is a dick move. Well on the top of the list of players I hate the most are the ones who don't try to win. I don't give a crap if it's 10 against 1, I'll take out as many of them as I possibly can. If it ends in a draw, I did my best to win, and not to deny them the win.

andyraptor #11 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 13:52

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View PostNeverwish, on Feb 03 2013 - 13:44, said:

Forcing a draw (usually hiding until the timer runs out) is a dick move. Well on the top of the list of players I hate the most are the ones who don't try to win. I don't give a crap if it's 10 against 1, I'll take out as many of them as I possibly can. If it ends in a draw, I did my best to win, and not to deny them the win.

Standby for a whole heap of hate then !  You'll see it over the whole spectrum of skill levels. Not often.... granted ... but you will

+1 for the explanation Vlad

Beerstein #12 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 13:57

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View PostVladimirsRevenge, on Feb 03 2013 - 12:46, said:



That's not entirely accurate. Although it does lower your win rate, it does not increase your loss rate. Example:

You play 10 games. You draw one game. That makes your win rate 90%, but it also makes your loss rate 0%.

But lets go back and say you lost one game. Then your win rate would be 90%, but your loss rate would be 10%, so the loss actually counts against you where the draw does not. The other thing that draw does is prevent your enemy from getting the bonus points (XP and Money and win rate), so there is something to fight for in the draw rather than just charging in to certain death. That is just plain stupid.
Losing mentality, 1% chance of victory is better than 99% chance of a draw cause if you're not a winner you're a loser.

scout_in_da_house #13 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 13:57

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I had a game this morning in my SU-100, my team had a tiger and a t20 left, vs 1 kv5. Instead of waiting for my support they just dumbly suicide rushed him 1 by 1 and in the last minute i managed to get away and survive to make it a draw. I consider that much better than a loss against that kv5, where he 'should' have won...

VladimirsRevenge #14 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 14:01

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View PostNeverwish, on Feb 03 2013 - 13:44, said:

Forcing a draw (usually hiding until the timer runs out) is a dick move.

Spoken like a two year old with no concept of competition.

Many times I've found myself the last one alive against superior numbers. Now, I'm not going to be a fool and just give them a win by charging in at them. I'm going to make them earn it. If they're capping me for the win, yes...I'll go after them as best I can and probably lose anyway.

But if there's not enough time left to cap, and I can hang on for the draw, you damn right I am. After all, just this week they had me outnumbered 6 to 1. Here's how it ended:

http://i938.photobuc...zpsc65eb19b.jpg


I had gone ice road and was half way to capping them when our cap went off. I raced back just in time to kill the guy capping. Then, I went totally defensive, killed 2 more of them and held on for the draw. That, my friend, IS victory. Charging into certain death giving them the easy win is a boneheaded, childish and flat out stupid move.

Beerstein #15 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 14:05

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View PostVladimirsRevenge, on Feb 03 2013 - 14:01, said:



Spoken like a two year old with no concept of competition.

Many times I've found myself the last one alive against superior numbers. Now, I'm not going to be a fool and just give them a win by charging in at them. I'm going to make them earn it. If they're capping me for the win, yes...I'll go after them as best I can and probably lose anyway.

But if there's not enough time left to cap, and I can hang on for the draw, you damn right I am. After all, just this week they had me outnumbered 6 to 1. Here's how it ended:

[img]http://i938.photobuc...zpsc65eb19b.jpg[/im*g]


I had gone ice road and was half way to capping them when our cap went off. I raced back just in time to kill the guy capping. Then, I went totally defensive, killed 2 more of them and held on for the draw. That, my friend, IS victory. Charging into certain death giving them the easy win is a boneheaded, childish and flat out stupid move.
Spoken like a 12 year old that got one too many participation medals.

Neverwish #16 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 14:08

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View PostVladimirsRevenge, on Feb 03 2013 - 14:01, said:

Spoken like a two year old with no concept of competition.

Many times I've found myself the last one alive against superior numbers. Now, I'm not going to be a fool and just give them a win by charging in at them. I'm going to make them earn it. If they're capping me for the win, yes...I'll go after them as best I can and probably lose anyway.

But if there's not enough time left to cap, and I can hang on for the draw, you damn right I am. After all, just this week they had me outnumbered 6 to 1. Here's how it ended:

I had gone ice road and was half way to capping them when our cap went off. I raced back just in time to kill the guy capping. Then, I went totally defensive, killed 2 more of them and held on for the draw. That, my friend, IS victory. Charging into certain death giving them the easy win is a boneheaded, childish and flat out stupid move.

As Beerstein said, you have a losing mentality.
Your options are not limited to: Hide and force a draw or Charge at them to die, but you think they are because you don't have enough confidence to believe that you can win against the odds.

"If I can't win so can't they". - This, my friend, is a childish mentality.

People who kid themselves into believing that a draw is better than a loss will never win against the odds because they are more ready to lose than to attempt the win.

VladimirsRevenge #17 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 14:15

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View PostNeverwish, on Feb 03 2013 - 14:08, said:

As Beerstein said, you have a losing mentality.
Your options are not limited to: Hide and force a draw or Charge at them to die, but you think they are because you don't have enough confidence to believe that you can win against the odds.

You know...Adolf Hitler thought that way. It ended badly for him, didn't it?

Inappropriate content (explicit) - continuance within 7 days of previous warning. 6d RO issued.
Sadukar09

Edited by Sadukar09, Feb 03 2013 - 16:53.


Buthrakaur #18 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 14:21

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They should take draws out of the game.  Either one team wins, or both teams lose.  Simple as that.  You should always do your best in anything you do, and always try to succeed.  In a game, that means trying to win.

Playing for the draw is the exact same mentality that keeps people in minimum wage jobs.  They are happy with sufficient, which is sad.  Before you replay, "but it is just a game", let me remind you, the way you approach the things you do by choice is a truer statement of who and what you are, than the way you approach the things you have to do.

VladimirsRevenge #19 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 14:29

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View PostButhrakaur, on Feb 03 2013 - 14:21, said:

They should take draws out of the game.  Either one team wins, or both teams lose.  Simple as that.  You should always do your best in anything you do, and always try to succeed.  In a game, that means trying to win.

Playing for the draw is the exact same mentality that keeps people in minimum wage jobs.  They are happy with sufficient, which is sad.  Before you replay, "but it is just a game", let me remind you, the way you approach the things you do by choice is a truer statement of who and what you are, than the way you approach the things you have to do.

People keep saying "Playing for the Draw". They're incorrect. Nobody sets out to get a draw by design. What one tries to do is prevent defeat against superior odds, which in and of itself is a win.

By hurling yourself into certain death and CAUSING THE LOSS, you've actually GIVEN VICTORY TO THE ENEMY...rather than doing your job, which is every soldiers job in war: Harass and confound the enemy to the very best of your ability. You can't do that by dying. You do it by staying alive and preventing them from winning.

mattwong #20 Posted Feb 03 2013 - 14:32

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View PostVladimirsRevenge, on Feb 03 2013 - 14:29, said:

People keep saying "Playing for the Draw". They're incorrect. Nobody sets out to get a draw by design. What one tries to do is prevent defeat against superior odds, which in and of itself is a win.

By hurling yourself into certain death and CAUSING THE LOSS, you've actually GIVEN VICTORY TO THE ENEMY...rather than doing your job, which is every soldiers job in war: Harass and confound the enemy to the very best of your ability. You can't do that by dying. You do it by staying alive and preventing them from winning.

But this is not war; it is a game, and games are supposed to be entertaining.

Draws are long, boring, tedious affairs.  A typical draw is a battle which begins with five minutes of combat and ends with ten minutes of camping.  No thanks.  If I want to watch scenery for ten minutes, I'll go to the park.




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