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ROF vs Alpha.

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captking #1 Posted Feb 19 2013 - 23:31

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After 9000 games and playing both ROF and Alpha Machines I need the community to think about something... Alpha vs ROF.  

The newly Minted 215B(183), and M4(HEAT) tanks got me thinking about this and I did a little looking.  Since most of the ROF Guns,  57mm, M1A2, and 6lber all rely on a high rate of Fire to over come the lack of Alpha.  This leads me to this question...

If the Difference between the alpha (KV-3 390) and the ROF (Church II 150) why doesn't the Chuchill get the same offset with DPM.  

390 = 150*260%

1850(kv-3) vs 1950(church) DPM

In 15 seconds the KV-3 will do about 780 dmg where the Chuck will do about 600

Now all the KV-3 has to do is shoot and retreat taking 150ish damage to its 400 damage out...then poke out long enough to do it agian.

Where as the DPM of each is almost the same or within 5% give or take I am not looking up all the numbers for this abstract thought.

Shouldn't the Folks that use ROF as their weapon have the same advantage at DPM as the Alpha guns have per shot...

3350DPM = 150dmg ever 2.6 seconds.  Should the idea sticking it out in-front of a ROF Tank, this should hurt?   When an Alpha tank can just stick out shot get hit once,  maybe twice?  Then retreat,  rinse and repeat.


Now before you go,, you're Fing nuts think long and hard about HOW the game is played.  The only time anyone gets bent out of shape when it comes to balance is when something is out of sorts...IE Alpha and ROF,  SU-122-44 and M4(HEAT) at least the M4 you have to spend a fortune in AMMO...

High Alpha Low reload
Low alpha Fast reload

But with DPM the same this is where the formula doesn't work.

kajfasz9 #2 Posted Feb 19 2013 - 23:43

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These days I tend to prefer RoF over alpha. Shells bounce, hit spaced armor, and do zero damage pens more often than they used to, which can make the high alpha guns frustrating at times. The only tank I've ever rage sold was the T30, after hitting a lorraine 4 times in a row for not 1 damage (and please hold all the "learn to aim!" comments, first shot was a track, all others into different areas of the hull or turret). High alpha is great on paper, but in practice a wild shot, bounce, or zero damage pen can be your death sentance. I do play some high alpha tanks, but I just find the RoF tanks (Cromwell, Black Prince, T34 and so forth) more fun and reliable.

Bobthewonder #3 Posted Feb 19 2013 - 23:56

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It comes back to knowing your tank and using it correctly for the situation.  If you've got a high rate of fire you need to be staying back at a good vantage point where you can shoot at multiple targets.  If you have large alpha you can peak and shoot.  With large alpha there is usually less accuracy and more aim time so they have to get closer to land effective shots.

Wedge12475 #4 Posted Feb 19 2013 - 23:57

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Honestly I seem to do perfectly fine in my M4 simply using HE ammo and aiming for weaker/less sloped armor. (Gotta love that 6.9 sec reload with a rammer and 100% crew  :Smile_Default: )

As for my preference:

Light Tanks: Tie Between RoF and Alpha (Chaffee and T21 vs. ELC and VK2801)

Medium Tanks: RoF! - This mostly embodies the principles of a proper medium tank play style

Slow Heavies: RoF/DPM - they are not particularly good at pop-out games and their heavier armor allows them to stay exposed without many consequences if positioned properly

Fast Heavies: Alpha - KV1S and the IS's are a good example

Traditional TDs: Alpha - The less frequently you are taking shots,  the less often you are having a lapse of camo

Turreted and Fast TDs (ie. Hellcat, T49, T25/2, M8A1, also M10 + M36 to a lesser extent): RoF/DPM - The ability to relocate allows you to fire sustained shots into enemies and retreat when they turn their focus to you

Arty (My only experience is up to tier 4): DPM - Things like M7 Priests and SU-26s are very frustrating to face due to their ability to pin a target down with sustained fire.

Edit: I unintentionally put DPM where I wanted to say RoF, as high DPM can be associated with some high alpha guns.

Edited by Wedge12475, Feb 20 2013 - 03:09.


Madox76 #5 Posted Feb 20 2013 - 00:00

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Well while I am not a fan of implementation for DERP cannons and HEAT, the pro's vs con's of them is a bit on an uneven level for sure.

And while mathmatically it would make sense it also risks making all the tanks effectively the same thing.  Each tank has its plus and minus each gun has different boosts trying to make them all even really vanilla's the game.  There is a fine line between 20 different tanks individual tanks and boiling it all down to Fast/Slow, Alpha/Rof basically making tanks lines etc useless.

Some tanks for sure are a bit lacking in certain area's but that's what makes them unique and hated by one player but loved by another.  Not to mention how the player uses the tank makes a HUGE difference.  Perfect example was this weekend with Panther being on special was playing mine, my friend was rolling his T29 sure my Alpha insanely lower then his, but I still beat him regularly in damage done, Sure my ROF was much higher but my guns accuracy allowed me to take risky shots he would never think to try or take snap shots he wouldn't be able to anyway.

wulfhound #6 Posted Feb 20 2013 - 00:20

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View PostWedge12475, on Feb 19 2013 - 23:57, said:

Honestly I seem to do perfectly fine in my M4 simply using HE ammo and aiming for weaker/less sloped armor. (Gotta love that 6.9 sec reload with a rammer and 100% crew  :Smile_Default: )

6.9 sec? I've been at 6.75 sec since my crew was at 90% (Yes, I am using a rammer and vents)

Wedge12475 #7 Posted Feb 20 2013 - 03:10

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View Postwulfhound, on Feb 20 2013 - 00:20, said:

6.9 sec? I've been at 6.75 sec since my crew was at 90% (Yes, I am using a rammer and vents)

Hmm... odd...

Maybe the reload timer mods we use work differently somehow?

Edited by Wedge12475, Feb 20 2013 - 03:11.


The_Templar #8 Posted Feb 20 2013 - 03:15

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heavies of different tiers?

Vaporous #9 Posted Feb 20 2013 - 03:28

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RPM means nothing when you can one shot 90% of the enemy team
DPM is only good for good players, not anyone can do good with T62A or IS6 or T29 with 90mm

Wedge12475 #10 Posted Feb 20 2013 - 04:04

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View PostVaporous, on Feb 20 2013 - 03:28, said:

RPM means nothing when you can one shot 90% of the enemy team
DPM is only good for good players, not anyone can do good with T62A or IS6 or T29 with 90mm

This is true but there are very little tanks that apply to this: S35CA, KV1S, ISU-152, Hetzer, T40, and KV-2. There are probably a few more I am not thinking of ATM.

Rexxie #11 Posted Feb 20 2013 - 04:09

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IMHO DPM and Alpha are both important to an extent.

DPM is more useful in sniping and flanking encounters. Alpha is more useful for general-purpose warfare, quick engagements against weak or weakened targets, and for outputting the most damage possible.

In general, Alpha > DPM. Sniping is not the norm, and flanking is teammate dependent and therefor unreliable in pubs. General brawling, close combat, and peekaboo'ing is far more common.

Look_its_Rain #12 Posted Feb 20 2013 - 04:10

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Alpha is more important to ROF to a point, there is a happy medium and to me the 122mm M62 is the perfect happy medium.

Vaporous #13 Posted Feb 20 2013 - 04:38

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View PostWedge12475, on Feb 20 2013 - 04:04, said:

This is true but there are very little tanks that apply to this: S35CA, KV1S, ISU-152, Hetzer, T40, and KV-2. There are probably a few more I am not thinking of ATM.
Let me help you out:
M4, PzIV, SU-26(it actually has both alpha and rof), T18, M2MT, KV-1S (400 damage at tier 6 go figure), and the soon be released 215b

thundornoggin #14 Posted Feb 20 2013 - 05:06

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LOL.........alpha?.......you mean a gun that does large damage?  A big damage gun is only really good it seems, when on a fairly mobile platform, otherwise you are in the open to arty and everything else.  At least if you have some decent rof....the enemy is not so confident.  The JPE suffers badly as it takes forever to reload, aim then retreat, plus it has a very very large weak spot it points at its target...that being its lower butter hull.  ROF is applied to all guns, it is a real number.  What the hell is the math of alpha?  Furthermore, what is the meaning of alpha?

captking #15 Posted Feb 20 2013 - 15:15

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View Postthundornoggin, on Feb 20 2013 - 05:06, said:

LOL.........alpha?.......you mean a gun that does large damage?  A big damage gun is only really good it seems, when on a fairly mobile platform, otherwise you are in the open to arty and everything else.  At least if you have some decent rof....the enemy is not so confident.  The JPE suffers badly as it takes forever to reload, aim then retreat, plus it has a very very large weak spot it points at its target...that being its lower butter hull.  ROF is applied to all guns, it is a real number.  What the hell is the math of alpha?  Furthermore, what is the meaning of alpha?

Let me Change it for you..

Single Shot Damage Vs Damage over Time....

90% of this game is played Peekaboo...Stick out shoot retreat....This is how the game is played most of the time...The Players that are STUCK with guns that cannot play this style are at a disadvantage most of the time...IE:  Tiger, BP, E2,E8,  and of the Churchill's really...  My question is shouldn't the tanks that have Damage over time vs Single shot have an advantage that extends to DPM much like the single shot Damage tanks(peekaboo) get for their one shot?  

Hope this helps.

thundornoggin #16 Posted Feb 20 2013 - 20:46

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View Postcaptking, on Feb 20 2013 - 15:15, said:

Let me Change it for you..

Single Shot Damage Vs Damage over Time....

90% of this game is played Peekaboo...Stick out shoot retreat....This is how the game is played most of the time...The Players that are STUCK with guns that cannot play this style are at a disadvantage most of the time...IE:  Tiger, BP, E2,E8,  and of the Churchill's really...  My question is shouldn't the tanks that have Damage over time vs Single shot have an advantage that extends to DPM much like the single shot Damage tanks(peekaboo) get for their one shot?  

Hope this helps.
What does alpha mean?  Many think it means big damage....well ok then...so just say big damage.  Damage over time?......all guns do damage over time.  To try and corral certain guns into a damage over time category is retarted considering all guns do damage over time.  The only true maths in game are...DPM...which all guns do and ROF which all guns do.

Asassian7 #17 Posted Feb 20 2013 - 21:09

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In a heavy tank or TD, alpha is my preffered. Bt in a fast tank i prefer the RoF. French heavies? Depends if their not looking at you but the ability to put a few high alpha shots into an enemy in 3 seconds is always welcomed :)

Look_its_Rain #18 Posted Feb 20 2013 - 21:10

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View Postcaptking, on Feb 20 2013 - 15:15, said:

Let me Change it for you..

Single Shot Damage Vs Damage over Time....

90% of this game is played Peekaboo...Stick out shoot retreat....This is how the game is played most of the time...The Players that are STUCK with guns that cannot play this style are at a disadvantage most of the time...IE:  Tiger, BP, E2,E8,  and of the Churchill's really...  My question is shouldn't the tanks that have Damage over time vs Single shot have an advantage that extends to DPM much like the single shot Damage tanks(peekaboo) get for their one shot?  

Hope this helps.
Tanks with low alpha shouldent be peek a booing with other bigger guns in the first place.

Garbad #19 Posted Feb 20 2013 - 21:14

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The biggest problem with ROF guns is that alpha guns usually have more relevant DPM. Because both guns start reloaded, an alpha tank almost always can kill a DPM tank before the DPM becomes significant. And that's on top of the peekaboom advantage.

XMdead #20 Posted Feb 20 2013 - 21:30

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A consideration is also playstyle.  If you are the kind that prefers to have lots of armor and duke it out hugging the enemy, ROF might be preferable.  If you are the kind that tends to not care about armor (avoids enemy shots) and would rather have a big gun... well... ROF might not be for you.