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Why is KV-1 the best tier 5 tank or at least the best tier 5 heavy?


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SULOMON #21 Posted Mar 14 2013 - 15:26

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View PostBrawler, on Mar 14 2013 - 15:17, said:

its more because it was about the only real heavy of its time very little to do with the rest of the comments made
go an learn about real world tanks an when they where made
That's not why.

Raindrops #22 Posted Mar 14 2013 - 15:32

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The 122 is an inferior derp, in my opinion. If you want to play that way, go buy the M4 or PzIV already.

That said, the KV has a low profile, good armor, and an excellent selection of guns. The 57 is a devastating machine gun, while the 85 is very solid in all counts. And yes, it does have derp potential, though in my opinion, it's a waste of a great tank.

in comparison, the Badger is all gun - the 90 will put in serious hurt, but you'd best have killed what you just shot at due to your nil armor. The T1 is excellent, with a great gun and armor, and will steamroll anything. ...so long as they don't get to your sides. Or know your weakspots. With the Churchill... Don't talk to me about it. In my experience, I could never get the armor to bounce or the gun to pen, and its abysmal speed always left me stranded.

EliminationStation #23 Posted Mar 14 2013 - 15:37

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My favorite tier 5 heavy thus far was the T1 heavy. Once fully upgraded and with 100% crew training and some skills, this tank was so much fun. Soft armor, but a good gun with a quick reload and fantastic maneuverability. Regardless, go one on one with a KV1 and you're a deadman in most situations.

truthleaker #24 Posted Mar 14 2013 - 15:41

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k i see why kv1 is good

Xerosic #25 Posted Mar 14 2013 - 16:20

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View PostNithydux, on Mar 14 2013 - 14:57, said:

Because Armor and 122mm.

View PostFattty, on Mar 14 2013 - 15:00, said:

View PostNithydux, on Mar 14 2013 - 14:57, said:

Because Armor and 57mm.
Fixed.

View PostNavySnipers, on Mar 14 2013 - 15:15, said:

Because armor and 85mm.
Because Armor and Flexible Gun Choices.

Geezus.

JLK_250 #26 Posted Mar 14 2013 - 21:48

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I don't think the KV-1 is the best tier 5 tank.   It is a great heavy due to good guns and great armor for the tier, but that's it.  It's far too slow for me to enjoy playing and I'll happily get rid of it once I no longer need it for my grind to the IS-7.

Madox76 #27 Posted Mar 14 2013 - 22:36

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Good Armor, Good Gun selections, Decent mobility.  No over the top obvious design flaws to take advantage of means its very forgiving to player that is learning and very powerful for player that knows what to do with it.

danielduwaldt #28 Posted Mar 14 2013 - 22:38

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the 85 mm is the real deal I must say, the derp isnt that amazing. Fast reload and reliable pen will keep you alive in almost all battles.

InDogeWeTrust #29 Posted Mar 14 2013 - 23:04

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View PostRaindrops, on Mar 14 2013 - 15:32, said:

The 122 is an inferior derp, in my opinion. If you want to play that way, go buy the M4 or PzIV already.

I disagree that the 122mm is inferior to the 105mm derp guns.

Yes, I understand that the DPM of the 105 is higher because of the faster reload, but the higher alpha damage and greater pen of the 122 allows a KV driver to 1 shot nearly every non-heavy tank Tier 5 and below, something that the 105 can't do.

With a normal damage roll on the 105, I can't 1 shot a fellow full health M4 or PZ4, something that I can do the vast majority of the time with the 122mm. Just yesterday I shot a M5 in the side with the 105; I got a normal damage roll and left him with 4 HP.

The 122mm is not inferior to the 105mm, it is merely better suited to the KV-1's gameplay style than the 105mm. The armor and HP of a KV-1 allows it to "tank" return fire while reloading. I've held choke points by myself in the KV-1 against multiple enemies because I was able to 1 shot all of them as they tried to swarm me, something an M4 or PZ 4 can't do.

I don't believe that the advantage of being able to 1 shot full health enemies can be overstated. The ability to completely eliminate a source of enemy fire in a single shot greatly enhances your survivability and is incredibly intimidating to less experienced players (which make up the majority of the player base in lower tiered games).

Edited by shaaman34, Mar 14 2013 - 23:14.


Nikolai_Mikoyan #30 Posted Mar 15 2013 - 04:43

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Allow me to sum it up for you.

Pros

- Heavy Armor  in tier 5 matches, you can bounce most incoming shots from up front easily, most of the time, without the need of sidescraping.
- Turret sits up high and with a very bouncy turret, it can exploit objects like debris or bomb crater effectively.
- Wide range of weapon choice from shredding lower tiers and permatracking higher tiers with the rapid firing 57mm 413, to pushing everywhere with the general purpose 85mm F-30, to blowing fears into the enemy with the 122mm U-11, The KV-1 is a tank that can easily adapt to your preference.
- Tier 5 now, it may not sounds like a pro, but being tier 5, you have a more forgiving MM, most of the time, you will end up in tier 5 match, where you rules.

Cons

- Poor Mobility this is the only significant con of the KV-1, but with engine upgrade, its mobility went from poor to decent (not fast, but decent) this is the cost of its great survivability. That said, if you'd expect a fast tank, better go for medium tank.

FlorbFnarb #31 Posted Mar 16 2013 - 01:17

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View Posttruthleaker, on Mar 14 2013 - 14:57, said:

Im gona get the kv1, but first i want to know why do alot of people say its the best tier 5 tank or tier 5 heavy? What makes it so good, what are its pros? What does it have that other tanks dont,etc.

It isn't the best Tier 5 tank or Tier 5 heavy.  The T1 is the best.  Before they fixed it, the old KV tank was absurdly broken OP, and could mount the KV-2 gun as well as the T-150's 107mm gun, I think.

But since that was fixed, the T1 shines.  Good solid gun, good frontal armor, and excellent mobility.  You can shoot-ram-shoot almost any Tier 5 tank to death; even a KV-1 will be hating life if a 60 ton T1 HT rams him in the side at 35 kph.

Jefftiffy #32 Posted Mar 16 2013 - 13:53

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View Postshaaman34, on Mar 14 2013 - 23:04, said:

I disagree that the 122mm is inferior to the 105mm derp guns.

Yes, I understand that the DPM of the 105 is higher because of the faster reload, but the higher alpha damage and greater pen of the 122 allows a KV driver to 1 shot nearly every non-heavy tank Tier 5 and below, something that the 105 can't do.

With a normal damage roll on the 105, I can't 1 shot a fellow full health M4 or PZ4, something that I can do the vast majority of the time with the 122mm. Just yesterday I shot a M5 in the side with the 105; I got a normal damage roll and left him with 4 HP.

The 122mm is not inferior to the 105mm, it is merely better suited to the KV-1's gameplay style than the 105mm. The armor and HP of a KV-1 allows it to "tank" return fire while reloading. I've held choke points by myself in the KV-1 against multiple enemies because I was able to 1 shot all of them as they tried to swarm me, something an M4 or PZ 4 can't do.

I don't believe that the advantage of being able to 1 shot full health enemies can be overstated. The ability to completely eliminate a source of enemy fire in a single shot greatly enhances your survivability and is incredibly intimidating to less experienced players (which make up the majority of the player base in lower tiered games).
Lol load HEAT on 105mm and you can do the same alpha at almost triple the speed with more pen.

ComradeHX #33 Posted Mar 18 2013 - 23:05

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View Postshaaman34, on Mar 14 2013 - 23:04, said:

The 122mm is not inferior to the 105mm, it is merely better suited to the KV-1's gameplay style than the 105mm. The armor and HP of a KV-1 allows it to "tank" return fire while reloading. I've held choke points by myself in the KV-1 against multiple enemies because I was able to 1 shot all of them as they tried to swarm me, something an M4 or PZ 4 can't do.
122 has higher alpha indeed.

However, KV-1 has piss-poor speed and agility.  Which makes alpha less useful(because faster tank can land two 105mm on Kv-1 and get behind cover for one 122mm).

Certain tier V medium tanks were only balanced against KV-1 when silver purchased 105mm HEAT became available.

Edited by ComradeHX, Mar 18 2013 - 23:06.


InDogeWeTrust #34 Posted Mar 19 2013 - 02:42

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View PostJefftiffy, on Mar 16 2013 - 13:53, said:

Lol load HEAT on 105mm and you can do the same alpha at almost triple the speed with more pen.

You're just making stuff up; you have no idea what the stats of either gun are. Posting before fact-checking just shows how careless and ignorant you are.

105mm/HEAT:

350 damage
150 Pen
7.5 rpm

122 mm/HEAT:

370 damage
160 Pen
5.7 rpm

Therefore the 122mm/HEAT does more damage/shot, has more pen and has a 10.53 sec reload time with a 100% crew.

The 105mm/Heat has a 8 sec reload time with a 100% crew

Where the heck are you getting

Quote

the same alpha at almost triple the speed with more pen
with the 105mm? The 122mm reloads ~2.5 SECS SLOWER THAN THE 105. The only thing that the M4 is better at than the KV-1 is DPM, and as I said earlier, DPM doesn't matter if my KV-1 can stop your derp med cold with 1 shot while correspondingly you can't kill me in 1 shot.

Edited by shaaman34, Mar 19 2013 - 03:04.


InDogeWeTrust #35 Posted Mar 19 2013 - 02:57

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View PostComradeHX, on Mar 18 2013 - 23:05, said:

122 has higher alpha indeed.

However, KV-1 has piss-poor speed and agility.  Which makes alpha less useful(because faster tank can land two 105mm on Kv-1 and get behind cover for one 122mm).

Certain tier V medium tanks were only balanced against KV-1 when silver purchased 105mm HEAT became available.

That assumes the KV-1 lets the derp medium get two shots at him and that neither of them bounces. If I have to, I'll eat a HEAT shell to ensure that I can kill the derp med in 1 shot, something my higher alpha allows me to do the majority of the time.

No smart KV driver will let himself be caught out in the open without cover close at hand. I've bounced/forced misses on quite a few HEAT shells because I always angle my tank and wiggle/rock back and forth if I can't get into cover before the enemy reloads. I've noticed that HEAT can have lots of weird non-penetrations/pen for no damage on targets that one would assume would be a guaranteed pen.

I also never let anyone shoot my side at a 90 degree angle (in the case of peak-a-boom).

Now if there are 2 or more derps working together then yes the meds will win, but that also assumes that the KV has no support, another thing that a smart KV driver should never allow.

I agree that the KV1 has terrible agility and acceleration, but since I played my KV1 long enough to elite it, my crew is on its second set of skills so I find it to be relatively agile for a heavy. Even stock it wasn't worse than a stock Tiger IMO.

Pure speed wise it's a lot faster than you'd think, on a level surface. I've hit the low 30s on level grass and the mid 40s going downhill (typical of Russian heavies).

Edited by shaaman34, Mar 19 2013 - 03:13.


ComradeHX #36 Posted Mar 19 2013 - 09:45

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View Postshaaman34, on Mar 19 2013 - 02:57, said:

That assumes the KV-1 lets the derp medium get two shots at him and that neither of them bounces. If I have to, I'll eat a HEAT shell to ensure that I can kill the derp med in 1 shot, something my higher alpha allows me to do the majority of the time.
Not even D2-5T can reliably kill 450/460hp mediums in one shot.

Majority of time?  Do you actually play that tank?  If you are smart driver of Kv-1; you would have noticed that enemy can follow you around a corner and shoot you again unless at longer range where accuracy is starting to make you miss.   You should have noticed by now that only area that KV-1 can block 105mm with is the highly angled middle section of front hull and turret.

Or are you trying to flank and pen with HE?

Pure speed wise I know exactly how "fast" Kv-1 is.  I have been playing Kv since it had 107 and 152mm.

Edited by ComradeHX, Mar 19 2013 - 09:50.


InDogeWeTrust #37 Posted Mar 19 2013 - 19:50

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Quote

Majority of time?  Do you actually play that tank?

*sigh* Why is it that people feel the need to launch ad hominem attacks the instant someone doesn't agree with them? Why would I post something if I didn't have numbers to back up my assertions?

Kv-1
124 battles (~40 of them w/o the 122. Used the 57 until I unlocked the 85, used it for a couple of games then switched to the derp)
61.3% W/R
44.4% Survival rate
884 Average Damage per game
3.0 K/D
1344 Eff
1817 Win 7
210 Total frags
Reaper: 9
1.8 Damage Ratio (kinda low I know. The last 40 odd games I played in this tank I ran in a 3 tank platoon which got us in a lot of Tier 7 battles where this tank's weaknesses were painfully exposed)

So yeah...I have played this tank and kicked a** in it.


Quote

If you are smart driver of Kv-1; you would have noticed that enemy can follow you around a corner and shoot you again unless at longer range where accuracy is starting to make you miss.

This is why you run in a platoon so that you have at least 1 teammate to watch your six at all times. If I shoot and damage someone and he follows me around the corner, my platoon mate is there waiting to introduce him to another 122 or 105 HEAT round.

Quote

You should have noticed by now that only area that KV-1 can block 105mm with is the highly angled middle section of front hull and turret

Of course I've noticed this. That is why I try as much as possible to expose only this portion of my tank to enemy fire I.E. angling or better yet use rubble to protect everything else while aiming.

Quote

Not even D2-5T can reliably kill 450/460hp mediums in one shot

Each shot has a chance to deal +/- 25% the average damage stated for the gun. In order to kill a derp M4 w/o the top turret I only need a damage roll 12.3% above the average to 1 shot the M4.

Regardless of the percentages and probabilities, unfortunately I don't have replays of my battles so I have no empirical data to prove my assertion that I can reliably 1 shot T5 med derps. What I have noticed is that the 122mm tends to consistently deal damage higher than the average stated.

Additionally I have been able to 1 shot full health derps when I most desperately needed to do so (1 example: full health derp PZ4 flanking me over a dune on Sand River; 1 shot him from the front. Not an Ammo rack or Engine fire).

I can't prove it and maybe I've just been really lucky but the 122mm has saved my tank's life so many times with 1 shots that I trust it to perform when I need it most (including taking and making ~500 yd shots with a reasonable chance of success). I trust my tank and the 122mm... take that for what you will. *shrugs*

Edited by shaaman34, Mar 19 2013 - 20:11.


ComradeHX #38 Posted Mar 20 2013 - 02:02

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View Postshaaman34, on Mar 19 2013 - 19:50, said:

*sigh* Why is it that people feel the need to launch ad hominem attacks the instant someone doesn't agree with them? Why would I post something if I didn't have numbers to back up my assertions?

View Postshaaman34, on Mar 19 2013 - 19:50, said:

I can't prove it and maybe I've just been really lucky but the 122mm has saved my tank's life so many times with 1 shots that I trust it to perform when I need it most (including taking and making ~500 yd shots with a reasonable chance of success). I trust my tank and the 122mm... take that for what you will. *shrugs*

View Postshaaman34, on Mar 19 2013 - 19:50, said:

Each shot has a chance to deal +/- 25% the average damage stated for the gun. In order to kill a derp M4 w/o the top turret I only need a damage roll 12.3% above the average to 1 shot the M4.
Derp M4 without top turret is not the 450/460 typical tier V medium tanks.

Edited by ComradeHX, Mar 20 2013 - 02:07.


Tupinambis #39 Posted Mar 20 2013 - 02:06

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Bah, you guys have clearly never encountered a T1 heavy with a high level crew, let alone with with BiA and a full equipment loadout. The T1 benefits more from a high level crew than the other tier 5 heavies, and suffers more from a low level crew than the other tier 5 heavies. I'm under the impression that most people grind through tier 5 with 50% or 75% crews, which is probably why the T1's reputation isn't what it deserves.

ComradeHX #40 Posted Mar 20 2013 - 02:10

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View PostTupinambis, on Mar 20 2013 - 02:06, said:

Bah, you guys have clearly never encountered a T1 heavy with a high level crew, let alone with with BiA and a full equipment loadout. The T1 benefits more from a high level crew than the other tier 5 heavies, and suffers more from a low level crew than the other tier 5 heavies. I'm under the impression that most people grind through tier 5 with 50% or 75% crews, which is probably why the T1's reputation isn't what it deserves.
T1Ht does have lower accuracy, alpha, and dpm than KV-1.

Along with worse armor(although slightly confusing as lower glacis is tougher than upper) including almost non-existent side armour...even turret is worse.

Mobility is is the only thing it has going for it; and it is not all that great...

High level crew can improve accuracy and mobility of tank; but it does not make tank do more alpha nor have more armour.

T1Ht is only viable after KV-1 got 107mm and 152mm taken away(before, it was just free exp for any decent KV drivers who most likely played it enough to elite and get 100% crew).

Edited by ComradeHX, Mar 20 2013 - 02:13.





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