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New Stahl 8.5


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The_Chieftain #1 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 18:23

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A light one, this week.

The big news, it seems, for 8.5 is the arrival of the Leopard 1. For all its import and merits, however, it’s easy to forget that there are a few other vehicles coming along as well. For the purposes of general education, let’s have a quick look at the other ones.

Starting at the start, the VK20.01 (D).


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If it looks like a Pz III with interleaved suspension, there’s a reason for that. The tank was developed in order to replace the Pz III as a 20-ton tank. Daimler-Benz came up with a couple of designs, the most basic, Z.W.40, was simply a re-working of a Pz III. The other was the VK 20.01 (III), a generally new-design vehicle, although obligated by the Army to use  various existing components and features, such as torsion bars.

It turned out that the PzIII Ausf E as built by D.B. under the instruction of the armaments board had a few quirks with the suspension and transmission, and after the experiences in Poland D.B. basically went back to the government and said “our designers were right, you should have not mandated we build the tank this way

As a result, they went to an automotive standardisation commission named “Generalbevollmaechtigen” with the request to be able to build their own tank, without interference from the Army. This permissision was granted, and the vehicle named GBK (Kampfwagen des Generalbevollmaechtigen) in their honour. The first thing they threw away were the torsion bars. The suspension remained interleaved, but now using DB’s favourite leaf springs.

Significantly, the engine they decided to use was  400-450hp diesel. This was a bit of a break from standard German practice at the time, but they did design the MB809 to be able to be tweaked into a petrol design if required. Somewhere along the line, the name of the vehicle was changed to VK 20.01 (D). The chassis was built, motor installed, the the vehicle tested in Kummersdof in mid 1941. By December 1941, over two years after the program had started, they decided that the basic concept of the 20-ton MkIII replacement was overtaken by events. Such a vehicle would be obsolete on the Russian front as soon as it showed up.

VK 30.01(D)


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This is basically a T-34 painted German grey. Daimler Benz’s initial thought was to simply copy the T-34, put a German 7.5cm gun on it, a German motor, and give it leaf springs (Must have the leaf springs). It may be the source of the popular conception that Panther was designed off T-34. In any case, DB decided soon enough that this particular idea wasn’t worth pursuing, and instead they faced off against M.A.N. in the VK 3002 project, which became Panther (and which they lost).

Aufkl. Panther


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As with basically every other tank that has ever been produced, it’s always a good idea to see if it is efficient to take a chassis already in production and do something else with it, instead of making other vehicles just for the purpose. Panther was not exempted from this, and indeed, Bergepanther (the recovery vehicle) was put into production. A number of other versions were also propsed, to include anti-aircraft, artillery and an observation vehicle  (Artillerie-Panzer-Beobachtungswagen Fahrgestell Panther). And, of course, someone had the bright idea of making proposing a recon vehicle. The Good Idea Fairy also visits Germany, who knew?

However, the idea was somewhat doomed to failure. If you’ve ever seen a real Panther up close, you’ll note that it is not exactly.. well… small. Sticking a half-height turret on the top just changed it from ‘really big’ to ‘rather big’, and if you’re going to go scouting with something as expensive to produce as a Panther and almost the same size, you may as well just give it the proper gun and turret and scout with the fully capable tank. That was the end of that.

Indien Panzer


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I must admit to having been surprised by this vehicle. I had never looked into it in the past, but some point last year it came up in conversation with Hilary Doyle, so I had him send me the plans. My very first reaction (we were on Skype) was “what were they thinking!? This thing is obsolescent. I mean, a rear mounted machinegun in the turret?” He generally agreed.

There is probably a reason that the Indian Army decided to go with the far more reasonable British design. That Indien Panzer was consigned to the dustbin of history was probably a good thing, as it allowed the lads to focus on making Leopard instead.

Leopard 1


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Not having had built a tank in a few years (especially once the Indien Panzer silliness had been dispensed with), the Germans decided in 1956 to have a new tank. The requirements were a combat weight of 30 tonnes, a power-to-weight ratio of 30hp/tonne, a width of 3.15m, height of 2.2m, a maximum road speed of 65km/h, an air-cooled multi-fuel engine, a 105mm cannon and two machineguns. Three teams set about meeting these requirements.

In the Red Corner, Porsche, Jung, Luther & Jordan, MaK and Rheinmetall.

In the Blue corner, Ingeniurburo Warneke, Rheinstahl Hanomag, Henschel and Wegmann.

In the White corner, the Direction des Etudes et Fabrication d’Armement and Atelier de Construction d’Issy-les-Moulineaux. (And I thought Germans were the ones into compound names)

CFW Borgward had a brief crack at being an independent design entry, but fell out of the running pretty much before they got started.

Trials took place between Team A (red) and B (blue) in 1961 and 1962, and pretty quickly it was noted that neither tank worked. Well, neither group had built a tank in nearly 20 years, so this wasn’t surprising. After a little tweaking, a second set of trials were conducted, by which time the Powers-That-Were decided to drop Team B’s design.

This still left the French entry, however. In the spirit of multinational co-operation, the German government decided to purchase Team A’s vehicle before the comparative trials with the French vehicle (which turned out to be AMX-30) were completed.

And that was that. The Germans were back in the tank business.

Oh, and as to how well they met those initial requirements? Combat weight of 40 tonnes, power-to-weight of 20.75hp/tonne, a width of 3.25m, a height of 2.6m, maximum speed of 65km/h, water-cooled diesel engine (Multifuel came later), a 105mm cannon and two machineguns. Close...

Daigensui #2 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 18:27

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I was going to write a Kankou's Rambling on this matter..... I suppose I could write a more detailed one.


Also, about the Indien-Panzer: It was the manufacturing method that sunk it. The whole-cast armor/turret would have been impossible to make given India's limited capabilities at the time.

JennaBugLovesYou #3 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 18:28

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This post makes me moist.

Priory_of_Sion #4 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 18:35

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View PostThe_Chieftain, on Apr 13 2013 - 18:23, said:

CFW Borgward had a brief crack at being an independent design entry, but fell out of the running pretty much before they got started.
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A design before its time: The Borgward Leopard.

bankaibahamut #5 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 18:35

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Interesting read.

Basically mirroring what everyone thinks of the Aukf. Panther, that it's a silly idea. I mean, come on, a recon Panther?
Just use a normal Panther, problem solved. LOL.

Priory_of_Sion #6 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 18:35

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View Postbankaibahamut, on Apr 13 2013 - 18:35, said:

Basically mirroring what everyone thinks of the Aukf. Panther, that it's a silly idea. I mean, come on, a recon Panther?
Just use a normal Panther, problem solved. LOL.
That is exactly what happened IRL.

bankaibahamut #7 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 18:39

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View PostPriory_of_Sion, on Apr 13 2013 - 18:35, said:

That is exactly what happened IRL.

I know, I'm just amazed that anyone thought this was a good idea.
"Oh, I know, let's make a version of the Panther with a tiny turret and crap gun and make it go further into harm's way than
a regular Panther. That's a great idea!"

:facepalm:

AGMx #8 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 18:41

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wtf is stahl, german steel, whatev I get it

Edited by AGMx, Apr 13 2013 - 18:42.


Priory_of_Sion #9 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 18:42

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View PostAGMx, on Apr 13 2013 - 18:41, said:

wtf is stahl
German for Steel

danielduwaldt #10 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 18:44

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View PostPriory_of_Sion, on Apr 13 2013 - 18:35, said:

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A design before its time: The Borgward Leopard.

Unfortunately too advanced for its time.

Blackhorse_Six_ #11 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 18:47

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View PostPriory_of_Sion, on Apr 13 2013 - 18:35, said:

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A design before its time: The Borgward Leopard.

Now, this is a Fantasy Tank I would like to see in the game ...

Chieftain, have you driven any of the vehiles you've outlined here, or the "restricted" models?

View Postbankaibahamut, on Apr 13 2013 - 18:35, said:

I mean, come on, a recon Panther? Just use a normal Panther, problem solved. LOL.

Back when the Bradley CFV was slated to equip every scout platoon in the mechanized force (Division 86), MG "Tommy" Tate told us during a visit that scouting in a Bradley was a waste of money - given the size of the Bradley, we might as well go scouting in Winnebagos ... and we'd all be alot more comfortable ... That comment stuck with me.

I have been on the Test Server a few times ... you will find my own impressions here ... http://forum.worldof...__fromsearch__1

Nightcall #12 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 18:56

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How will this alter the tech tree?

duke1000 #13 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 18:57

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Just out of curiosity when or if are we going to see some DD tanks?
I think it would be very interesting to see them.

Arquebezer #14 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 18:58

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View PostPriory_of_Sion, on Apr 13 2013 - 18:35, said:

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A design before its time: The Borgward Leopard.
That'll be cool as a premium *hint hint*

AGMx #15 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 19:01

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wait where is the Tier 9 leo? Leo 1 is a tier 10 on the TS

fsjd #16 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 19:14

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Indien Panzer
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looks like a panther with a Lowe turret on it that got punched in the face. whats the slope on the upper glacis? picture makes it look in the 40ish range.
should be fun. what guns it got on, an 88, 105, or something else?

Edited by fsjd, Apr 13 2013 - 19:15.


UniverseBear #17 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 19:16

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I like how the germans are now getting some post WWII tanks. Looks like they'll be fun to drive.

Blackhorse_Six_ #18 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 19:19

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View Postfsjd, on Apr 13 2013 - 19:14, said:

Indien Panzer
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looks like a panther with a Lowe turret on it that got punched in the face. whats the slope on the upper glacis? picture makes it look in the 40ish range.
should be fun. what guns it got on, an 88, 105, or something else?

Gun progression is thru two 88's to the 90mm depicted here ...

1300 HP

I've been on the Test Server ... For those interested, these are my impressions and observations ... http://forum.worldof...__fromsearch__1

Highlord #19 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 19:36

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View Postbankaibahamut, on Apr 13 2013 - 18:39, said:

I know, I'm just amazed that anyone thought this was a good idea.
"Oh, I know, let's make a version of the Panther with a tiny turret and crap gun and make it go further into harm's way than
a regular Panther. That's a great idea!"

:facepalm:

They had a US AGF moment.

Tazilon #20 Posted Apr 13 2013 - 19:59

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Any idea when the RU251 will make its appearance?




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