Jump to content


Improved Ventilation vs. Coated Optics: The Debate


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
143 replies to this topic

Daigensui #41 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 09:28

    Major

  • Wiki Staff
  • 20005 battles
  • 20,170
  • [MUP] MUP
  • Member since:
    11-09-2012

View PostMow_Mow, on Apr 14 2013 - 09:21, said:

Then it's no longer an equal comparison. You'd be comparing just one module with a module + a full set of crew skills, which may have more or less value depending on how many that crew has and what vehicle is being used. For example, if your crew is still on their first skill, BiA is useless. More useful once they have gone to their second skill, but the price is still higher than, say, if your crew was on their fourth skill. It's difficult to quantify.

My point is, Optics will be better than Vent for a long-range engagement tank when everything is equal, but when skills/perks come into play things get a bit messy. Most people actually have to consider the skill/perk factor when supporting either equipment.

fiddler54 #42 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 09:42

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 32993 battles
  • 819
  • [TDC-H] TDC-H
  • Member since:
    05-25-2011
Once a crew has brother in arms you could dump the vents if you wanted.
But that is aside from the question isn't it.
i think you need to rethink this question or paraphrase it slightly.
I have tested in a training room with and without optics and I can tell you I was suprised.
In a static location there will be a  second that you can use to get ahead of the opposition, but only a second.
if you are moving the difference will be negligible as both tanks will mostly moving together at a speed to negate any advantage gained  by a larger view range.
i prefer to give myself the edge with vents, rammer and gld/stab.
its all about the gun and the person behind the gun.

SilentKilla78 #43 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 09:48

    Captain

  • Players
  • 1559 battles
  • 1,124
  • Member since:
    08-03-2012
I used to run optics on my meds, but switched to vents when I saw a lot of good players using vents. This post however, has convinced me to go back to optics, which is convenient since there's an equipment sale. Thankyou Kewei :)

BashNSmash #44 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 10:10

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 12501 battles
  • 442
  • [ACES] ACES
  • Member since:
    10-21-2011
I prefer taking forward positions and then settling in with Binos. You can feel the difference when they kick in and you spot something . They are useful for resetting cap from a distance too.

KiwiMark67 #45 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 10:45

    Major

  • Players
  • 38303 battles
  • 4,562
  • [ANVIL] ANVIL
  • Member since:
    08-24-2011
It is my understanding that Vents improve the skills of the Commander, gunner, driver, radioman & loader as well as several other skills like repair, camo, firefighting, mentor.
I'm sure that coated optics improves nothing but view range.
On most of my tanks I have a rammer & vents + something else which could be coated optics, binocs, vert stab, wet ammo rack, GLD or whatever.

jsnazz #46 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 10:52

    Major

  • Players
  • 2817 battles
  • 5,992
  • [DTSD] DTSD
  • Member since:
    10-01-2012
Unicums doesn't need Optics because a lot of time they able to secured the top tier tank and their job is to eliminate the other team through the eyes of their teammates.

If they allow their team to die they wont be unicums in the first place.

Make sense?

This bring us back why they preferred vent over Optics.

Shoot true, ask questions later.

noupperlobeman #47 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 11:25

    Major

  • Players
  • 10964 battles
  • 3,386
  • [KOOL] KOOL
  • Member since:
    08-07-2012
I've actually been thinking about making a brothers in arms and vents vs other skills and other equipment.

The best I can figure is you lose some reload speed an accuracy without bia, and picking special perks instead.

Thoughts?

ShivaX #48 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 12:02

    Major

  • Players
  • 27710 battles
  • 4,051
  • [3PZG] 3PZG
  • Member since:
    04-18-2011

View PostBlazzy, on Apr 14 2013 - 06:33, said:

Imo there isn't any tank in the game worth running without a rammer....

T-50-2.

That's really about it and you could run a rammer on it most people wouldn't think badly of you for doing so.

Well, and any autoloader obviously.

_ESA_ #49 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 12:06

    Captain

  • Players
  • 8470 battles
  • 1,163
  • Member since:
    08-16-2012
how much does situational awareness boost view range with? what if u got this + bia + vents? is optics still needed ?

Stinky_Face #50 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 12:23

    Sergeant

  • Players
  • 4051 battles
  • 102
  • Member since:
    11-15-2012
In my humble opinion i think binocs are great piece of equipment to consider. Especially in those situations where there are very few tanks left with no one to spot for you. I usw binocs and its been very useful many times. They are great on passive spotting tanks and also they have been very useful when it comes down to end game where your up against multiple tanks on your own. Sit in a bush use binocs to spot. If spotting something back up to use cover and shoot. Repeat. Great for watching cap at end game also. I've won quite a few games in tds against 3-4 tanks on my own at end game with thw help of binocs. Though the situations where optics are more useful are far greater than binocs. I like vents on things with slower reload and aim time. Most of my setups are egld rammer and vs though.

Curious. What's your opinion on bia? Dp you have a thread on skills already?

Rexxie #51 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 12:24

    Major

  • Players
  • 29401 battles
  • 4,292
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    03-05-2011

View Post_ESA_, on Apr 14 2013 - 12:06, said:

how much does situational awareness boost view range with? what if u got this + bia + vents? is optics still needed ?

3% for Situational Awareness, 2% for Recon, so getting both would be 1/2 of a optic. BIA+Vents would add another ~6%, so you'd have ~+11% view range. You wouldn't need optics unless you're really minmaxing your view range over other abilities.

Kevlar1972 #52 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 12:54

    Captain

  • Players
  • 10296 battles
  • 1,391
  • Member since:
    12-26-2012
Optics are only useful on tanks that need to be moving and need to be spotting the enemy.  Most tanks will benefit much more from binoculars than optics.  I carry optics on two tanks, my WZ-132, and my T71.  Most other tanks get vent/rammer/gld or vent/rammer/v.stab.  Quicker reload means a lot more to a front line heavy than an extra 20 meter view range.  Or any tank that has another tank 20 meters in front of it...Optics in most cases do absolutely nothing.

SMScannonfodder #53 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 13:02

    Major

  • Players
  • 19955 battles
  • 2,497
  • [-S-A] -S-A
  • Member since:
    04-29-2011

View PostKewei, on Apr 14 2013 - 06:03, said:

I'm a staunch advocate of choosing optics over ventilators in many tanks, but many unicums (notable ones too) disagree. So I felt the need to bring this issue to light.

Refer to Garbad's loadout, and it's surprising lack of optics. Being Garbad (unicum of unicums), many will likely have emulated his loadout. Something I want to modify slightly, by including optics as a viable option.

http://forum.worldof...sumables-setup/

When running conventional tanks in higher tiers, equipment choice almost always boils down to the following:

Gun Laying Drive
Vertical Stabilizer
Gun Rammer

But when any one of these are absent, and both ventilators and coated optics are an option (I've excluded binoculars because of the impracticality of having to wait 5 seconds after the slightest hull movement to gain that view range boost), people tend to go for the ventilators instead of the coated optics, preferring the 5% to all crew skills (which is an effective 2% boost to all stats, refer to link below where adding improved ventilators only increases 400m view range to 408m view range) over the 10% passive view range boost.

http://forum.worldof...arms-deception/

The stats that are affected by this are (to my knowledge):
  • Traverse
  • Acceleration
  • Reload Time
  • Aim Time
  • Accuracy (Stationary and On Move)
  • View Range
  • etc.
All in all, improved ventilation provides small and nearly unnoticeable bonuses to about every stat. Some people like the idea of this, namely Garbad and CarbonWard, who two of the best players around. Their opinions clearly hold weight, otherwise this wouldn't be a debate.

I don't.

Imagine having a tank like the T-54, would you rather have a T-54with every stat with the exception of armour, HP, gun damage, and penetration boosted by a mere 2%, or would you rather have a T-54 with 39 meters more view range that can effective scout actively and passively when the need arises? Which of the two would be more useful to you?

How about the decently fast heavy tanks or tank destroyers at high tiers? Well, I want to have an advantage that I'm able to stack against the enemy in tough situations, and one of the most important things in higher tier matches is vision control, especially in later phases of these matches, where you have less and less people spotting for you and need to spot for yourself, which is where optics comes in particularly handy. It extends the typical 400m view range of late tier tanks to 440, which is just a few meters away from the maximum spotting range, whereas improved ventilation only extends it to 408. If you can spot the enemy before they can spot you, you can get off the first few shots without being detected even in the open, which is a huge advantage in the late phases of matches.

Now, how about the slow and heavily armoured tanks that probably won't get to do alot of spotting and are typically ones that get spotted? Think of optics as a way to leverage the playing field between you and the other fast tanks with good camouflage in later phases of a match where only a few tanks are left alive. In such situations tanks with good camouflage likely spot you before you spot them if you don't have optics on, let's take an Object 268 and a T110E5 for example. The Object 268 has a moving camouflage value of 10% or so and the T110E5 has 4%. This means in a situation where both the T110E5 and the Object 268 have Improved Ventilation and are moving towards each other at a great distance, the Object 268 will spot the T110E5 at 392m meters, and the T110E5 will spot the Object at 367m.

If the T110E5 however, ran optics, it would be able to spot a moving Object 268 at 396 meters away while moving, a few precious meters ahead of the Object 268, enough time for the T110E5 to be aware of the danger and quickly find cover.

In the first situation, you would've likely been spotted and hit (3 seconds before sixth sense activates, enough for the Object 268 to aim in fully and hit you) for massive damage. In the second situation, you would've been the first to spot the Object 268 and quickly realized the danger and dash for cover before the Object 268 spots you and has time to even aim its gun halfway.

In open maps like El Halluf, Redshire, Prokhorovka, Malinovka, optics can be a godsend as you can see from the situation I have listed above.

Of course, it's a situational equipment with it's downsides, especially when used in city maps that have a great deal of cover in certain areas, but even then, most city maps have large areas of engagement that are focused around view range control, Himmelsdorf has the alley next to the railway and the railway itself, Ruinberg has the small town outside of the larger one that can be used to spot all the way to the enemy bases, Highway has the huge open field that scouts often run across, Seaport has its central railway area in which tanks can snipe for hundreds of meters from one side to the other, etc.

Still, it's better to have an advantage you know you can abuse in some situations instead of one that you don't even notice to begin with, wouldn't you say?

Speaking from personal experience, I've found optics to be of great help when carrying teams in late phases of matches in many open maps, I simply wait in (preferably in a bush) overwatching an area where I expect the enemy to pass by, spot them while I'm a significant range outside of their view range, and hit them without being spotted myself (and eliminating the chance of being hit by artillery), usually killing or crippling them to make the next engagement a more favourable one. Without optics in many of these cases, I would've spotted them while I was inside their view range, and if I had shot them, I would've lost my camouflage and exposed myself to artillery.
So what is your opinion on BIA verses individual specialty skills?

Panzer_Kunst #54 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 13:07

    Major

  • Players
  • 13979 battles
  • 3,524
  • [VILIN] VILIN
  • Member since:
    07-20-2011

View PostSMScannonfodder, on Apr 14 2013 - 13:02, said:

So what is your opinion on BIA verses individual specialty skills?

It's worth it, and unless you're playing a tank that gets its crews killed more than once a game often, you should always go for it after getting repairs and sixth sense on a tank. So, typically as a second skill, you can afford to not research repairs on the commander and hold it off until the third skill. It's much more useful than many of the other perks out there, like a free improved ventilation slot.

What I would do is first research some other perk that doesn't require 100% to activate, and when I'm done and have researched it 100%, re-skill to Brothers in Arms.

View Post_ESA_, on Apr 14 2013 - 12:06, said:

how much does situational awareness boost view range with? what if u got this + bia + vents? is optics still needed ?

View PostRex_Nex, on Apr 14 2013 - 12:24, said:

3% for Situational Awareness, 2% for Recon, so getting both would be 1/2 of a optic. BIA+Vents would add another ~6%, so you'd have ~+11% view range. You wouldn't need optics unless you're really minmaxing your view range over other abilities.

With all of these crew skills, yeah, there's not much need for optics unless you want to take the camouflage penetration a step further as a scout tank (at 445 meters view range, you're still going to only spot a moving T54 at around 400 meters, with optics, you have 480 meters view range and can spot a moving T-54 at around 435-438 meters).

So I have to admit, there isn't much point going for optics when you have all of those crew skills, but when you don't, you should go for it.

I guess the main reason I'm advocating for optics now is because I dismissed all of my crew a while back and don't have any crew with more than their first skills researched.

Edited by Kewei, Apr 14 2013 - 13:28.


Rexxie #55 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 13:07

    Major

  • Players
  • 29401 battles
  • 4,292
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    03-05-2011

View PostKevlar1972, on Apr 14 2013 - 12:54, said:

Optics are only useful on tanks that need to be moving and need to be spotting the enemy.  Most tanks will benefit much more from binoculars than optics.  I carry optics on two tanks, my WZ-132, and my T71.  Most other tanks get vent/rammer/gld or vent/rammer/v.stab.  Quicker reload means a lot more to a front line heavy than an extra 20 meter view range.  Or any tank that has another tank 20 meters in front of it...Optics in most cases do absolutely nothing.

I dont know about you, but most tanks dont have a 200m view range. You're probably looking at about double that bonus for most t6+ tanks.

Shackram #56 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 13:56

    Major

  • Beta Testers
  • 9156 battles
  • 4,531
  • [PSTNS] PSTNS
  • Member since:
    01-17-2011
Kewei, that's pretty much my reasoning since i stopped buying Vents about a year and half ago, i've even brough this up a few times in past discussions

Vent's price is too high and what it offers is too little to be worth it when there are more useful modules.

View PostKewei, on Apr 14 2013 - 13:07, said:

It's worth it, and unless you're playing a tank that gets its crews killed more than once a game often, you should always go for it after getting repairs and sixth sense on a tank

Unless it was changed during my last hiatus, you don't lose the BIA bonus when a crewmember is killed.

Irishwind #57 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 14:17

    Captain

  • Players
  • 10784 battles
  • 1,066
  • [IRE] IRE
  • Member since:
    03-01-2011
I put vents on tanks I want to keep.  I enjoy the german lines and TDs, so I hang back a lot.  I would rather have binos than optics.  I can see optics being useful on active scouts, but on passive scouts and sniper tanks binos is the better choice.

Panzer_Kunst #58 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 14:43

    Major

  • Players
  • 13979 battles
  • 3,524
  • [VILIN] VILIN
  • Member since:
    07-20-2011

View PostShackram, on Apr 14 2013 - 13:56, said:

Unless it was changed during my last hiatus, you don't lose the BIA bonus when a crewmember is killed.

Source?

On a sidenote, sumbeh gift meh Panther M10 (or more preferably Type 62).

I seriously want to try it out, decent mobility and durability for a tank with preferential MM, and 2000 DPM.

I'll even throw my stats down the trashcan for a challenge if someone wanted me to.

Edited by Kewei, Apr 14 2013 - 14:45.


CrabEatOff #59 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 14:44

    Major

  • Players
  • 14526 battles
  • 4,710
  • [-G-] -G-
  • Member since:
    06-12-2012

View PostKewei, on Apr 14 2013 - 14:43, said:

On a sidenote, sumbeh gift meh Panther M10.

I seriously want to try it out, decent mobility and durability for a tank with preferential MM, and 2000 DPM.

Given your preference for vision/camo abuse, and good dpm, ask for a Type 62, much better and more fun tank, even without pref MM.

Shackram #60 Posted Apr 14 2013 - 14:51

    Major

  • Beta Testers
  • 9156 battles
  • 4,531
  • [PSTNS] PSTNS
  • Member since:
    01-17-2011

View PostKewei, on Apr 14 2013 - 14:43, said:

Source?

Says on the perk description ingame, iirc.

But it's also on the Wiki: http://wiki.worldoft...kills_and_Perks

Quote

This perk increases the training level of each crew member's Role/Major Qualification by 5%. It also improves the Repair, Firefighting, and Camouflage skills by 5%. As of 8.2 it also improves commander's Mentor skill. It does not affect other role-specific skills, nor any perks (in-game description is incorrect). There is no benefit whatsoever unless all of the crew have this trained to 100%. The perk stays in effect if a crew member is knocked out during battle. The perk is cumulative with Improved Ventilation and skill boosting consumables.