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SPG's Lor. 155 50 and arty issues in general

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xBlackHowlingx #1 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 00:59

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Okay, First off this isn't a crying rant it's about game play. So trolls go find something else to do for awhile.

SPG's either need to have damage nerfed into line with Big Gun TD's and be given the  penetration to use it efficiently, or be kept the same but afforded accuracy and faster aiming times.

Argument: The Tier 6 Lor. 155 50 Does on an Avg not the 700+ damage advertised against tier 7 to 9 heavies but 200-250 damage(Some exceptional shots and ammo racks do more but that falls out side the statical norm for the parsed data I collected.)  And that is if the shell hits, which the accuracy even in perfect conditions leave much to be desired.

Parsed data: AVG. Damage vs heavies in lor. 155 50  225 damage on direct hits and this is a bit high because it counted the few ammo racks and critical hits that again fell outside of the normal ranges. got in the course of the investigation (Collected in over 200 battles on mine and my friends account.)

So In summation you can Take Accuracy or you can take damage but taking both is too much.  Make HE depend on Penetration but look at data from each gun independently and make adjustments accordingly. Yes French arty is low damage.. but It's preforming more in the range of a tier 5. against it's most likely opposition. Tier 8 and 9 heavies. (With dispersion unless a medium is sitting still in most cases, firing a shot is a low % probability of a hit *IN MOST CASES)

Second Argument:  With the trend of faster and faster tanks, and maps with more, "hard cover" town brawls the 6-7+ second aim time of arty is too much, should be closer to 3-4 seconds, Arty needs the ability to snap on to target much faster before the chance of a shot is lost. Sounds drastic but remember every time the guns hull moves the slightest bit we've got start that aiming cycle all over again.

Proof Ensk, Ruinberg siegfried line, The Dorf, Port, Wide Park, *With other maps of marginal utility. Tanks: Bat Chat, Lor 40 T, T71, Wz 131-132, AMX 13 75-90, ELC AMX, Leopard, VK 2801 (And the new German Leo's coming just furthers the high speed hurt, At speed, 7 seconds is enough time for some of them to cross half a map. A slight exaggeration but not by much.)

Also to support both arguments I offer the following: A trend of the immature player that says "**** Arty"  where they refuse to defend the close in attacks and allow team members to be frag'd because they don't like a given type of vehicle.  While regrettable is still fact and must be parsed into performance data. And adjustments made to traverse speeds and close in gun accuracy to compensate for the lack of team support that was assumed when the values where set.

I get that some people don't like the style of indirect fire. But they ARE in the game, were and are in the real world. Were and are still used as an integral part of mobile armored warfare. Ask yourself and then answer, without arty what need would there be for medium and light tanks in this game? What need would there be for anything other than Heavies and maybe a couple of big gun TD's? Arty counters Heavies/TDs, Fast Lights/Meds Counter Arty/Td's, Mediums lead the assault on targets of opportunity I.E. Heavies that have the armor facing the wrong way Other mediums, Lights caught at bad times.  It's all Rock Paper Scissors. All I'm asking is for there to be thought given on the points I raise.

HOTA_CHATON #2 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 01:04

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View PostxBlackHowlingx, on Apr 16 2013 - 00:59, said:

Okay, First off this isn't a crying rant it's about game play. So trolls go find something else to do for awhile.

SPG's either need to have damage nerfed into line with Big Gun TD's and be given the  penetration to use it efficiently, or be kept the same but afforded accuracy and faster aiming times.

Argument: The Tier 6 Lor. 155 50 Does on an Avg not the 700+ damage advertised against tier 7 to 9 heavies but 200-250 damage(Some exceptional shots and ammo racks do more but that falls out side the statical norm for the parsed data I collected.)  And that is if the shell hits, which the accuracy even in perfect conditions leave much to be desired.

Parsed data: AVG. Damage vs heavies in lor. 155 50  225 damage on direct hits and this is a bit high because it counted the few ammo racks and critical hits that again fell outside of the normal ranges. got in the course of the investigation (Collected in over 200 battles on mine and my friends account.)

So In summation you can Take Accuracy or you can take damage but taking both is too much.  Make HE depend on Penetration but look at data from each gun independently and make adjustments accordingly. Yes French arty is low damage.. but It's preforming more in the range of a tier 5. against it's most likely opposition. Tier 8 and 9 heavies. (With dispersion unless a medium is sitting still in most cases, firing a shot is a low % probability of a hit *IN MOST CASES)

Second Argument:  With the trend of faster and faster tanks, and maps with more, "hard cover" town brawls the 6-7+ second aim time of arty is too much, should be closer to 3-4 seconds, Arty needs the ability to snap on to target much faster before the chance of a shot is lost. Sounds drastic but remember every time the guns hull moves the slightest bit we've got start that aiming cycle all over again.

Proof Ensk, Ruinberg siegfried line, The Dorf, Port, Wide Park, *With other maps of marginal utility. Tanks: Bat Chat, Lor 40 T, T71, Wz 131-132, AMX 13 75-90, ELC AMX, Leopard, VK 2801 (And the new German Leo's coming just furthers the high speed hurt, At speed, 7 seconds is enough time for some of them to cross half a map. A slight exaggeration but not by much.)

Also to support both arguments I offer the following: A trend of the immature player that says "**** Arty"  where they refuse to defend the close in attacks and allow team members to be frag'd because they don't like a given type of vehicle.  While regrettable is still fact and must be parsed into performance data. And adjustments made to traverse speeds and close in gun accuracy to compensate for the lack of team support that was assumed when the values where set.

I get that some people don't like the style of indirect fire. But they ARE in the game, were and are in the real world. Were and are still used as an integral part of mobile armored warfare. Ask yourself and then answer, without arty what need would there be for medium and light tanks in this game? What need would there be for anything other than Heavies and maybe a couple of big gun TD's? Arty counters Heavies/TDs, Fast Lights/Meds Counter Arty/Td's, Mediums lead the assault on targets of opportunity I.E. Heavies that have the armor facing the wrong way Other mediums, Lights caught at bad times.  It's all Rock Paper Scissors. All I'm asking is for there to be thought given on the points I raise.

Just another troll griping about arty.  Run along, nothing to see here.

_verminator_ #3 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 01:05

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i agree
+1 to you sir

Dregdon #4 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 01:05

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While your arguement is well thought out your just going to get massively flamed for asking for what is essentially a buff to arty when most people in the community are well into the thought that arty is too good already.

hijkl22 #5 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 01:06

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u spent all this time writing this wow this is a wranty baby on the losse like sence u said this isnt a rant it is u sad bro i didnt even finish reading it its so sad srry bro but it is :trollface:  :angry:  :ohmy:

skyf24 #6 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 01:07

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My S-51 is listed at 1850 per hit, unless i get really lucky its usually about 700-1400. But, 1-shotting those KT's, Lowes, IS-8s and etc is just so fun. And seeing "NS arty" is always nice.

Dregdon #7 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 01:08

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View PostxBlackHowlingx, on Apr 16 2013 - 00:59, said:

Ask yourself and then answer, without arty what need would there be for medium and light tanks in this game? What need would there be for anything other than Heavies and maybe a couple of big gun TD's? Arty counters Heavies/TDs, Fast Lights/Meds Counter Arty/Td's, Mediums lead the assault on targets of opportunity I.E. Heavies that have the armor facing the wrong way Other mediums, Lights caught at bad times.  It's all Rock Paper Scissors.

That all works fine without arty. Lights can easily flank and pin TDs for shots at their side/rear. Mediums still defend against lights. Heavies still push the line against mediums and other heavies. And then TDs try to take out heavies on the other team. The circle works perfectly fine without arty. Ask yourself this first. In a game without arty do all the T-50-2 just go drown themselves? No they can certainly be very useful at flanking/spoting even without arty.

You might not realize this but you can spot for people other than arty as a scout.

TDRHooRaH #8 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 01:09

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The speed of the French arty makes up for the lack of damage.

Belenas #9 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 01:13

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Welcome to the suck that is French artillery. It doesn't really get any better either, the damage compared to other nations is abysmal. You have to give up something for all that speed, maneuverability, and fast reload times. I often counter arty with direct hits and don't kill them, because amg 300 HP is so much. You occasionally do get 500+ hits on heavies but not very often with the 50.

Also, right mouse button locks your gun in place, move your hull to aim in the new position and put your mouse cursor on the center dot, and you will find you do not bloom out half as much, and do NOT have to "start the aiming cycle all over" Takes some practice and if not done correctly it just blooms big as hell anyway, but once perfected makes the difference between a good arty and...well, me.

xPooLSharKx #10 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 01:27

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You don't consider an immense amount of things when you're stating your argument. Like any game there is a balancing act that has to take place for all players to be on "equal" ground. WoT is a skill based game with a given tank. Sure, you're going to have some tanks where any old joe shmoe can get in and do fairly well but that's countered by your own play. Sure, there's some randomness to a RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR when firing at someone(all tanks)

There are quite a few things to consider much like Belenas said; with the French artillery you sacrifice high damage and quick aiming for quick maneuverability and fast reload. Lets take the T92... HIGH damage, NO maneuverability; its a balancing act sir.

I want a Hellcats speed with a T92 gun that has a 1000 round auto loader... You can't eat your cake and have it too. Arty is good where it's at IMO

Edited by xPooLSharKx, Apr 16 2013 - 01:33.


GameIsRigged #11 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 01:33

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Maybe you should read the HE damage mechanics before posting?

D_X_T #12 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 01:35

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View PostBelenas, on Apr 16 2013 - 01:13, said:

Welcome to the suck that is French artillery. It doesn't really get any better either, the damage compared to other nations is abysmal. You have to give up something for all that speed, maneuverability, and fast reload times. I often counter arty with direct hits and don't kill them, because amg 300 HP is so much. You occasionally do get 500+ hits on heavies but not very often with the 50.Also, right mouse button locks your gun in place, move your hull to aim in the new position and put your mouse cursor on the center dot, and you will find you do not bloom out half as much, and do NOT have to "start the aiming cycle all over" Takes some practice and if not done correctly it just blooms big as hell anyway, but once perfected makes the difference between a good arty and...well, me.
Am guna try this as soon as I get on my pc, thnx for the tip ;o

Rip__Van__Winkle #13 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 01:39

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View PostxPooLSharKx, on Apr 16 2013 - 01:27, said:

You don't consider an immense amount of things when you're stating your argument. Like any game there is a balancing act that has to take place for all players to be on "equal" ground. WoT is a skill based game with a given tank. Sure, you're going to have some tanks where any old joe shmoe can get in and do fairly well but that's countered by your own play. Sure, there's some randomness to a RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR when firing at someone(all tanks)

There are quite a few things to consider much like Belenas said; with the French artillery you sacrifice high damage and quick aiming for quick maneuverability and fast reload. Lets take the T92... HIGH damage, NO maneuverability; its a balancing act sir.

I want a Hellcats speed with a T92 gun that has a 1000 round auto loader... You can't eat your cake and have it too. Arty is good where it's at IMO
its u cant have ur cake and eat it too ,caus the other way around makes no sense

Edited by superfun, Apr 16 2013 - 01:40.


Kamahl1234 #14 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 01:39

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View PostxPooLSharKx, on Apr 16 2013 - 01:27, said:

You don't consider an immense amount of things when you're stating your argument. Like any game there is a balancing act that has to take place for all players to be on "equal" ground. WoT is a skill based game with a given tank. Sure, you're going to have some tanks where any old joe shmoe can get in and do fairly well but that's countered by your own play. Sure, there's some randomness to a RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR when firing at someone(all tanks)

There are quite a few things to consider much like Belenas said; with the French artillery you sacrifice high damage and quick aiming for quick maneuverability and fast reload. Lets take the T92... HIGH damage, NO maneuverability; its a balancing act sir.

I want a Hellcats speed with a T92 gun that has a 1000 round auto loader... You can't eat your cake and have it too. Arty is good where it's at IMO

I do agree with you, though you seem to have missed what he was stating, or at least what I interpret his as to stating. His complaint is with the round not doing the damage advertised, not with the damage that it should be getting (which is still lower than it's other nations counterparts).
I've noticed this myself, in my French artillery and in my Russian ones, that I tend to do roughly 1/10th of my listed damage, on average. Hell, my SU-5 with the 152mm has averaged 15 damage per hit games so often that I actually get surprised when I see a triple digit hit.

xanitos #15 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 01:42

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I agree that arty does less dmg than advertised, especially when you do get a direct hit even though its a game not a sim it should still do a lot more damage.  The reason why I say that is because the armor on the top of tanks, and im not just talking about the turret, also the hull is very thin.  They have the armor values of all tanks for the front side and rear of the tank why not the top of the tank also.  I understand that not all arty shots hit the top some land a few inches infront or to the sides of the tank, or the front of the hull depending on how the tank is angled or the slope its on.  But you really cant argue that a shell 155mm or over shouldn't do a bunch of damage.

MonkyRanger #16 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 01:54

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They are already nerfed by horribad RNG , I play arty tons and they rarely hit for the projected damages if they even hit at all . Learn to play strategically and arty safe and you won't have to worry so much about getting wailed by arty . The only players that get killed by arty are the idiots that charge straight at that "special" area on any given map full speed ahead and STOP the enemy from getting into YOUR teams arty zone while at the same being pit bull determined to force over that hill or around that corner even thought you know the enemy arty is wailing on that zone . Every one seems to want to be a kill hog and not want arty to get the good shots in , so in effect it is the tens of thousands of horribad tankers that make arty appear to suck . It is too bad for the game that so many of the players hate on one of the most effective pieces of the TEAMS  arsenal .

xPooLSharKx #17 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 02:06

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View Postsuperfun, on Apr 16 2013 - 01:39, said:

its u cant have ur cake and eat it too ,caus the other way around makes no sense

http://en.wikipedia....cake_and_eat_it

Because I can have my cake and then i may consume my cake. I may not however Eat my cake then have it because i would have already consumed it...

please be sure of your trolling before you troll

Edited by xPooLSharKx, Apr 16 2013 - 02:12.


n4cer67 #18 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 04:50

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The Spg's are fine as is and don't need any more Nerfs.

xBlackHowlingx #19 Posted Apr 16 2013 - 04:56

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I'm talking MINOR adjustments, Still low damage compared to other nations but brining the tier in line with what tier 6 is being asked to do LOL.. I know the HE damage mechanic I deal with it everyday. The S-51 is a prime example of being a shade too strong when it hits.. when it doesn't it's got a Nice LONG reload time..

False Argument=Mobility makes up for low damage.. No.. it doesn't.. Reason.. if Arty is Moving it's not shooting, It's not hidden and it's nothing but a target with the accuracy and Aim time on its gun..

Mobility simply grants you the ability to get into a better shooting position.. it is such a Minor + for a major detraction..

No one has made a valid point yet or refuted my own, I've been called a troll and ranter but I backed up my statements with facts... Put in simple terms arty IS falling behind the curve of hard cover and speed. Minor adjustments are in order to Tier IV and VI. those gap tiers aren't keeping up with the matches they are asked to fight in... I use the lor. 155 50 because the weaknesses are more apparent and easily testable and verifiable. The GW Panther is almost perfect because of its wide gun travel decent damage and reliable accuracy.. The S51 is pretty decent because of the Tier 7/8 like damage. a Minor adjustment to penetration for the lor.  I slight speed boost in traversal speeds for the slower arty. and buff to aim times across the board to give it a chance of hitting the close in threats before they are fragged isn't revolutionary or game breaking..

And as to lights in fights without Arty.. Would you really want to bring a Spork to a Nuke fight? When you're one maybe 2 good hits to a BL 9 and you'd have to reload 3 and half times to kill and IS 3? what about an IS 7? No you wouldn't bother with a light tank don't front.. The game would quickly devolve to the KV/IS Heavy lines. French Tier X destroyer. Maybe a few JagdE100's and Brit B 183's for spiking damage.

Edited by xBlackHowlingx, Apr 16 2013 - 04:59.


mariusmules #20 Posted May 19 2013 - 01:07

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View PostxBlackHowlingx, on Apr 16 2013 - 00:59, said:

Also to support both arguments I offer the following: A trend of the immature player that says "**** Arty"  where they refuse to defend the close in attacks and allow team members to be frag'd because they don't like a given type of vehicle.  While regrettable is still fact and must be parsed into performance data. And adjustments made to traverse speeds and close in gun accuracy to compensate for the lack of team support that was assumed when the values where set.




I concur. And, give us an option to switch to a close quarters defense weapon E:G; a 50 BMG firing AP rounds-----that will take care of those pesky T-50s, since the majority of players on the same team, even when they are in close vicinity, won't help an arty when it's apparent that a scout/light is going for them.

Edited by mariusmules, May 19 2013 - 01:16.