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What is special about HESH?


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Alphabloom #1 Posted Jun 02 2013 - 03:43

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I was looking through the WoT wiki about ammo and I noticed that HESH rounds are not mentioned ( http://wiki.worldoftanks.com/Ammo ) however in the newer pages in regards to the conq. or the later tiered British tanks it mentions HESH is effective against mediums/ lightly armoured  vehicles but never explains exactly what HESH does. I know from reading about HESH is that the British designed the shells to destroy older tanks with less armour. My question is, in WoT apart from the pen, is there anything different compared to the other prem rounds like APCR?

Thanks in advance.

Ogopogo #2 Posted Jun 02 2013 - 03:45

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In real life it was different from HE, but in game, HESH acts identically to HE, with the exception of a much higher penetration value.

Gonefortoday #3 Posted Jun 02 2013 - 03:46

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look at the 183 HESH rounds vs AP
Then Look at AP vs APCR on the Tortiose
you tell me the HUGE difference

TheHolyRoller #4 Posted Jun 02 2013 - 03:47

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HESH mean High Explosive Squash Head. Basically, it was a fast moving projectile with a high explosive at the head. When the shell hit the armor of a vehicle, the explosives would be squashed to the armor and explode, causing massive spalling inside the vehicle. The shell does not penetrate tanks unless they have no armor but instead causes damage by spalling

Vladimir__Poutine #5 Posted Jun 02 2013 - 03:49

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HESH has an higher penetration than HE. Just load the FV215b (183) with a bunch of HESH rounds, then you'll get it.

Alphabloom #6 Posted Jun 02 2013 - 03:51

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So HESH and HEAT are similar in the way the HE rounds have higher pen than normal HE rounds?

Act7 #7 Posted Jun 02 2013 - 03:51

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Taking the question further

What is the difference between HESH and HEAT?

Alphabloom #8 Posted Jun 02 2013 - 03:54

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View PostAct7, on Jun 02 2013 - 03:51, said:

Taking the question further

What is the difference between HESH and HEAT?

From what I can tell in real life, HESH is deigned not to penetrate but to use spall as it's way of disabling a tank or vehicle

zdude1858 #9 Posted Jun 02 2013 - 03:57

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Heat uses the shockwave created by the detonation of an explosive charge to deform and accelerate a piece of metal inside of the shell to produce a stream of supersonic metal that pierces the armor of the tank. It DOES NOT use the explosive to do damage in any form what so ever. The supersonic metal stream penetrates the armor and does the damage.

hesh is pretty much just he. ( as far as this game is concerned anyway)

tallstar5 #10 Posted Jun 02 2013 - 04:00

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View PostAct7, on Jun 02 2013 - 03:51, said:

Taking the question further

What is the difference between HESH and HEAT?

As far as WoT goes, HESH is HE with higher pen, as it can still do damage without penetration. HEAT is more like AP without normalization and pen drop over distance, although the changes in 8.6 will make it less similar to AP (but not more like HE- it'll have its own special penetration mechanics, but still act pretty similarly to AP).

AKA_The_Titan #11 Posted Jun 02 2013 - 04:05

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View PostAlphabloom, on Jun 02 2013 - 03:51, said:

So HESH and HEAT are similar in the way the HE rounds have higher pen than normal HE rounds?

Pretty much. In game, the only difference between HE and HESH is that HESH rounds have much higher pen than standard HE. However, don't be fooled by the stats on paper: in game, HESH rounds are not very useful at all, because you still have to take the gamble with RNG for damage like with normal HE. It's almost always more reliable to simply use AP rounds.

1SLUGGO1 #12 Posted Jun 02 2013 - 04:21

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As far as the game goes:

AP--Solid shot round that has to penetrate a tank to do damage.

HE--if it does not penetrate, explodes on contact with an object for calculated damage based on armor values/exterior modules.

APCR--AP round with higher penetration value.

HESH--an HE round with higher penetration value.

HEAT--an AP round with higher penetration value, that does not lose penetration over distance, but is more likely to bounce.

IRL:

http://en.wikipedia....ive_squash_head

http://en.wikipedia....ti-tank_warhead

Edited by 1SLUGGO1, Jun 02 2013 - 04:31.


Gryphon_ #13 Posted Jun 19 2013 - 21:25

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As a Cent 7/1 player, HESH is my favorite topic of discussion. It looks like the game just treats it like high pen HE, but of course that isn't how HESH works at all. If enough of us are interested it might be worthwhile to come up with a better mechanic for HESH as it seems with 8.6 the devs are prepared to spend time on improving this sort of thing (they have reworked HEAT).

From what I have read, HESH should do full damage up to a point where armor thickness weakens the pressure wave such that the spall effect is reduced progressively.

HESH is effectively mitigated by spaced armor, so if it hits spaced armor it should be treated as HE exploding at the space distance from the hull.

Finally, HESH is a crew and module killer primarily, and an armor killer (hp) only as a secondary effect. This is the round that should kill multiple crew members and modules if used against weaker targets. I think this is the tough part - how to provide a satisfactory player experience given that we don't see critical or crew damage until after the match.

What are your thoughts? Would you like to see a HESH rework in 8.7?

gman2725 #14 Posted Jun 20 2013 - 00:27

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View PostAct7, on Jun 02 2013 - 03:51, said:

Taking the question further

What is the difference between HESH and HEAT?

HEAT rounds penetrate armor with a molten stream of metal caused by an explosive going off at the moment of impact, liquifying a metal core inside the shell and sending it through the armor and into the crew compartment where the poor guys inside get exposed to superheated liquid metal. A good example of this in action is the modern RPG round used by most armed forces. It's essentially a shoulder fired HEAT round in a grenade package. There's a core made of copper inside of the projectile, and on impact, it gets so hot it melts right through much harder metals with ease.

HESH rounds cause damage by cracking, spalling, and deforming armor. When you try to bend hardened metals, they tend to break instead.  They're also very, very nasty concussion wise as the shockwaves they produce can travel through the armor and into the crew compartment even if there's no penetration.

drochot #15 Posted Jul 24 2013 - 15:13

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View PostAct7, on Jun 02 2013 - 03:51, said:

Taking the question further

What is the difference between HESH and HEAT?
if heat doesnt pen, bounce. If hesh doesnt pen, HE-like damage.

Hanz_Gooblemienhoffen_42 #16 Posted Jul 24 2013 - 15:42

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Another factor not really played out in the game is that HEAT rounds were typically not as accurate as your standard AP/APCR/SABOT rounds...

in fact smooth bore and rifled barrels tend to use different properties when firing...smooth bore allows for a variety of rounds being fired and doesn't need the rounds to "spin" like in a rifled barrel...as well HEAT rounds don't really like to "spin" as it can effect their ability to impact with full force as noted in early tests with infantry based AT weapons like bazooka and panzerfaust/shrek...HEAT rounds need to make solid contact with what they are impacting or the Munroe effect is not as efficient.

HESH rounds do need to spin to be accurate...and thus really arent used anymore as most modern tanks use smooth-bore guns....but of course WG doesnt want to use smoothbore guns...so..it creates some issues for the calculations HEAT vs HESH rounds..

But this game does its best to try and simulate all this different rounds all being fired from rifled barrels without being bogged down by the 6 billion calculations necessary to determine "penetration".

PersianHercules #17 Posted Jul 28 2013 - 05:38

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HEAT penetrates with a hardened head projectile, the explodes with extra explosive power behind it, kind of like armor piercing but with a bang behind it. It explodes within the vehicle.

HESH on the otherhand is what modern IED's use to penetrate most vehicles. Hesh spalls, spall liner will keep it from penetrating. It is highly effective vs pre cold war vehicles. Here's a pic of how hesh works. Posted Image

Imagine a projectile that hits its target, but doesn't explode. It penetrates, then the plastic explosive flattens against the armor, causing it to become disk shaped. This is the SQUASH in heSh. The disk then explodes, causing shockwaves to make the metal bend inward and shatter, causing fragmentation to the crew compartment.

Edited by PersianHercules, Jul 28 2013 - 05:51.


PersianHercules #18 Posted Jul 28 2013 - 05:41

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View PostHanz_Gooblemienhoffen_42, on Jul 24 2013 - 15:42, said:

Another factor not really played out in the game is that HEAT rounds were typically not as accurate as your standard AP/APCR/SABOT rounds...

in fact smooth bore and rifled barrels tend to use different properties when firing...smooth bore allows for a variety of rounds being fired and doesn't need the rounds to "spin" like in a rifled barrel...as well HEAT rounds don't really like to "spin" as it can effect their ability to impact with full force as noted in early tests with infantry based AT weapons like bazooka and panzerfaust/shrek...HEAT rounds need to make solid contact with what they are impacting or the Munroe effect is not as efficient.

HESH rounds do need to spin to be accurate...and thus really arent used anymore as most modern tanks use smooth-bore guns....but of course WG doesnt want to use smoothbore guns...so..it creates some issues for the calculations HEAT vs HESH rounds..

But this game does its best to try and simulate all this different rounds all being fired from rifled barrels without being bogged down by the 6 billion calculations necessary to determine "penetration".

Hesh is a warhead. Heat is a warhead. Doesn't matter how it gets there, finned stabilization or rifling. They are both accurate based on rifling. Hesh and Heat are only the tip of a projectile, what's behind it determines its accuracy, not the tip. Unless the tip has some stupid shape that totally throws off its accuracy (which it won't). -_-. Bazookas and panzershreks are ROCKETS. They can have HESH or HEAT WARHEADS.The ROCKET determines accuracy. Fin stabilized rounds were not developed so there were very few smoothbore barrels, the only ones being smoothbore were mortars, because rifling does not factor into mortar projectiles (it only factors in negatively) please excuse my english

Edited by PersianHercules, Jul 28 2013 - 05:44.


Hanz_Gooblemienhoffen_42 #19 Posted Jul 29 2013 - 16:09

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View PostPersianHercules, on Jul 28 2013 - 05:41, said:

Hesh is a warhead. Heat is a warhead. Doesn't matter how it gets there, finned stabilization or rifling. They are both accurate based on rifling. Hesh and Heat are only the tip of a projectile, what's behind it determines its accuracy, not the tip. Unless the tip has some stupid shape that totally throws off its accuracy (which it won't). -_-. Bazookas and panzershreks are ROCKETS. They can have HESH or HEAT WARHEADS.The ROCKET determines accuracy. Fin stabilized rounds were not developed so there were very few smoothbore barrels, the only ones being smoothbore were mortars, because rifling does not factor into mortar projectiles (it only factors in negatively) please excuse my english

The fact that they are warheads is irrelevant......if you spin a munroe round (HEAT) it will negatively effect the hollow charge when it impacts....there is a major difference between fin stabilized rounds and spin stabilized fin rounds...heat rounds can be fin stabilized but the round and the "warheard" do not spin....if they did the monroe effect wouldn't be as efficient...If the warhead is spinning...it will not work...PIAT and Shrecks were not "spinning" rounds...regardless of how they get there....

Modren HEAt Rounds are "fin stabilized" but the fins do impart "spin" to the round or the warhead...they are simply stabilized...the HESH rounds warhead and all "spin" because the HESH effect isnt impacted by the spin...it will still work..so they can be fired through a rifled barrel which naturally imparts spin...that would not work with a HEAT round.

While the "warhead" does not determine accuracy....the warhead does determine whether or not you want to round to spin or not....which in turn effects accuracy...

I appreciate the distinction you are trying to make but if you spin a HEAT round...it simply will not work....the munroe effect requires a strong flat connection in order for the hollow charge effect to work...when you spin it...it does not have that solid connection and this does not get the full effect. In the same way that if a heat round get detonated away from the arm it wont work...the effect only works over a short distance...thats why you see explosive reactive arm...or even simply chicken wire aounrd tanks...if that munroe effect happens to far from the arm...it doesn't do jack..

Big diff between ww2 and modern ..is "fin stabilized"...but even still they don't spin...




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