114 replies to this topic

[Steeltrap]

All other issues aside, to me it points to the underlying stupidity of the whole system.

First, the 'camo' skill. I'm sorry, but there is NOTHING you can do to camo a moving vehicle of this size/era effectively. Apart from the fact that you'd frequently throw up plumes of dust in a lot of terrain that could be seen MILES away, the human eye is hyper-sensitive to movement. At the ranges of this game, there simply is no way a moving vehicle in the open would not be visible to everything within the arbitrary spotting range. Introducing this 'skill' adds a level of complexity to spotting that is simply absurd.
GET RID OF THIS SKILL.
If you WON'T get rid of it, STOP it from working on any vehicle that is moving. PERIOD.

Secondly, camo nets. Excuse me, your crew is in a buttoned up vehicle reloading their gun yet somehow deploys a cloaking device while suffering NO OPERATIONAL PENALTY at the time? Explain how that works, please. I could understand it IF you had to 'deploy' the net as a deliberate action that takes 15 seconds, during which you cannot reload, fire or move. Similarly, once deployed, you cannot move until 'packing it up' (another 15 seconds) OR chosing to move without doing so, in which case the net is unavailable for use for the rest of that match. Such a thing would make 'sense' to most people, while the current system does not. The camo net should NOT:
- work on a vehicle in plain sight (i.e. an open field)
- change the ability to be seen by a vehicle that has already spotted you.
These changes would stop the currently absurd situation where a heavy fires at you from 200m away then simply vanishes while it reloads.
It is so painfully, obviously ridiculous that it astounds me they came up with it in the forst place and have failed to alter it.

While the differences in visibility between vehicles of similar tiers and dimensions seems hard to defend, the underlying system/design choice seems even more so to me.

Lastly, and I imagine I'll get stick for this, but I have no problem with the person getting a ban. He clearly violated the agreement into which he entered of his own free will. What he COULD have done is said "I have looked at the underlying data and can tell you that ABC vehicles are inherently harder to see by 25% than XYZ vehicles, despite them being of same tier/approximately same dimensions". Could have achieved exactly the same result in terms of discussion and questions for the devs without blatantly ignoring the EULA by publishing allegedly accurate data.

[Dekurgan]

Steeltrap, on Jan 13 2011 - 00:46, said:

Lastly, and I imagine I'll get stick for this, but I have no problem with the person getting a ban. He clearly violated the agreement into which he entered of his own free will. What he COULD have done is said "I have looked at the underlying data and can tell you that ABC vehicles are inherently harder to see by 25% than XYZ vehicles, despite them being of same tier/approximately same dimensions". Could have achieved exactly the same result in terms of discussion and questions for the devs without blatantly ignoring the EULA by publishing allegedly accurate data.

whilst what you say is true. How many times have people posted such things only to be told. 'prove it'.
Yes he was wrong in what he did but with the level of dis-interest we recieve from those we are supposed to be testing this game for can you blame him for outing the full stats in order to make his case?

Also it should be noted that he posted it in  the beta test section of the forums which doesnt have general public access. And all of us who post / read this section are subject of an NDA hence unable to reveal anything about the game outside of this area.

Still whats done is done. What I am awaiting is a Dev response as to wether this was actually decrypted game code and hence accurate. As per usual they have been conspicuous in their absense. Their silence shouts louder than any attempt at explaining would have done.  

[grdja]

IRL hights of ISU, Ferd and JT. 2.5m 2.8m 2.9m
ISU is roughly between 5 to 10 times more stealthy than later two! If I tell you why we will see red letters and forum bans.
Also, JagPanther has same practically zero innate stealth.

KV better at stealth than any of those 3.

[Diedel]

Dekurgan, on Jan 11 2011 - 18:40, said:

This my friends is a disgrace if what i see in this post is true.

Firstly the Dev's appear to have been caught out yet again in an overwhelmingly obvious bias in favour of the russian vehicles.

Secondly we've been saying for months that cammo on the top 3 tiers of German Td's is broken. Then we find that its not broken but just hugely nerfed at source by the dev's to the point where its useless.

Thirdly when  this is pointed out its almost instantly snuffed out by the Mod's as a violation of the EULA.

This is just wrong. We wouldnt have to go to this extent in the first place if we were given a level playing field with accurate info.  This just add's fuel to the fire for those whom state the Dev's don't actually give a monkeys what we think. And if we do find out about issues like this they will just use their forum police to enforce the information blackout.

thoroughly sickening.

The real big question is, if this data is valid, why is that in the client files anyway ? As this game supposedly does everything server-side, the client would never need those information. Or is there stuff being done on the client and open to hacks after all ?

[robot]

Diedel, on Jan 13 2011 - 07:02, said:

The real big question is, if this data is valid, why is that in the client files anyway ? As this game supposedly does everything server-side, the client would never need those information. Or is there stuff being done on the client and open to hacks after all ?

The operative word here is, supposedly. That's what they have been claiming all the while. I'm not or won't be surprised if it's another lie, given the lack of transparency and interaction with the 'beta testers' all these months.

[robot]

Eide, on Jan 06 2011 - 21:15, said:

I suggest you have a look at http://forum.worldof...636#entry346636

As a response to Robot, no at this time we aren't sure the information that was presented is genuine. WN is investigating.

Please stay on-topic to the discussion. Thank you.

Any update on the "investigation"?

Oh and yes, Eide, that thread has since been somehow, mysteriously, deleted.

[StickEGreen]

Wow this whole situation is pathetic!  I hope the OP reposts the info somewhere else where the nazi mods can't censor it.

[robot]

StickEGreen, on Jan 13 2011 - 17:17, said:

Wow this whole situation is pathetic!  I hope the OP reposts the info somewhere else where the nazi mods can't censor it.

The OP, MrCaffeLatte has been gagged and thrown into a gulag somewhere in Siberia slapped with a 14 day forum ban for posting the truth EULA violating information.

[Webtroll]

robot, on Jan 13 2011 - 17:27, said:

The OP, MrCaffeLatte has been gagged and thrown into a gulag somewhere in Siberia slapped with a 14 day forum ban for posting the truth EULA violating information.

I giggled

[Zargus]

Webtroll, on Jan 13 2011 - 20:25, said:

I giggled

Are there any other forums people are posting on about this game?

[Donken86]

I just wanted to share this link taken from another topic: http://www.achtungpa...-sd-kfz-186.htm

and in the middle of this side it says this: Jagdtigers best tactical use was as a well camouflaged static defense pillbox allowing it to use its armament to its full potential.

So why not make it have good camo in the game? So we can use it in the game as they did irl!

[Tantrum]

After enjoying a three-day-ban myself for posting in MrVic's thread, which was dangerous business after his mood swung, I too would like to know where this whole thing is going.

[Cobra6]

To the developers: If someone posts suggested proof that you are deliberately biassing your own nationalities vehicles in a game and ignoring the complaints of other players about it, the worst thing you can do is delete the information. This just makes it worse. The EULA is just the easiest excuse in this situation, a convenient little box to quickly get rid of legitimate criticism.

You can not continue prolongedly with this, it will lose you a lot of players in the end (and thus money) all in favour of what? There are hardly any Russians on the Western servers enjoying your little piece of mangled work. Here in the Western world objectivity is the rule, so do your job properly.

Nowadays hardly anyone holds a grudge against the Germans and people enjoy playing their vehicles. I know Germany invaded your country and did a lot of bad things, but there is no reason to still hold a grudge against them. In their own right and on vehicular level, they did a marvellous engineering job. With their defeat (which was right, don't get me wrong) a great line of vehicles; land, sea and air was lost forever, which in it's own right is a shame really.

I have 100's of books on WW2 vehicles and I can give you the true data if you need it, just ask.

Cobra 6

[Bangodan]

Steeltrap, on Jan 13 2011 - 00:46, said:

Lastly, and I imagine I'll get stick for this, but I have no problem with the person getting a ban. He clearly violated the agreement into which he entered of his own free will. What he COULD have done is said "I have looked at the underlying data and can tell you that ABC vehicles are inherently harder to see by 25% than XYZ vehicles, despite them being of same tier/approximately same dimensions". Could have achieved exactly the same result in terms of discussion and questions for the devs without blatantly ignoring the EULA by publishing allegedly accurate data.

I agree with you, in principle.

The problem is that people have noticed that using camo nets or having high camo skills did nothing on certain tanks. Instead of coming out and telling us straight up that certain tanks could not benefit from such skills due to how the system worked, we got no real answers. Due to this people thought it might be a bug and started, because they enjoy such challenges, to start digging. When all legal places where people can dig for answers are exhausted, somebody is going to dig somewhere where the devs would rather they are not. In this case it yielded an answer, however that answer was a truth that the devs rather we not know.

Now, from my experience playing MMOs, I believe it to be futile to try and hide game mechanics from the players. I do not mean exactly how things are coded, but people are going to figure out the formulas sooner or later. There is nothing you can do about it. There are too many intelligent people playing this game who enjoy solving such problems. The genie is out of the bottle now and you can only put it back in for a short while by putting in a completely new sighting system. As soon as the new sighting system is in, people will take the time and effort to decode it, using both legal and illegal (in terms of the eula) means. If people learn that they cannot post such things here, they will turn to other forums outside of the reach of Wargaming where they can freely share this information and there Wargaming will not be able to put any kind of control or means of responding like they have here.

[Arkhell]

so basicly it's been a while since they said they'd look into it, but we have no answer...

geussing there bussy looking for a way to buf stealth on these things but gimp m in another way.

[SpectreHD]

Zargus, on Jan 13 2011 - 20:42, said:

Are there any other forums people are posting on about this game?

Oh there is. I am a member of a clan and they have a WoT section.


On topic. Also, this explains a lot when I played my Ferdinand and JagdTiger. Sad really. And for people who talk about the Ferdinand and JagdTiger being larger than their Russian counterparts, I have a SU152 and Ferdinand in my garage once and the Ferdinand was not that much larger than the SU152. I am pretty sure TD players who have both can do a comparison.

[Dekurgan]

SpectreHD, on Jan 14 2011 - 09:47, said:

Oh there is. I am a member of a clan and they have a WoT section.


On topic. Also, this explains a lot when I played my Ferdinand and JagdTiger. Sad really. And for people who talk about the Ferdinand and JagdTiger being larger than their Russian counterparts, I have a SU152 and Ferdinand in my garage once and the Ferdinand was not that much larger than the SU152. I am pretty sure TD players who have both can do a comparison.

From what i can find  just doing a quick search it seems the
ISU152 is 2.48 meters in height.
object 704 is 2.24 meters.
ferdinand is 2.97 meters.
JagdTiger is 2.71 meters.

So as can be seen it appears that the soviet TD's do have a lower profile than the german versions. Though from what has been discussed in this thread it would seem that the advantages given to the soviet vehicles goes way beyond what you would expect from the above figures. Unfortunately due to the censorship that has been used we are no longer able to look at the figures for a proper percentage comparison.
This would seem to verify that there has indeed been a bias towards the soviet vehicles.
**at the end of the day if we arnt given any info to determine how and why the figures came about then it is human nature that people will form their own conclusions. In this case the obvious conclusion would be that the Dev's have been found out and are now keeping quiet in the hope that it will go away**

Devs....

Come on guys , you want us to test this game and (i assume) you want our input. If thats the case then at least do us the courtesy of giving us some input.

[robot]

Bangodan, on Jan 14 2011 - 08:32, said:

The problem is that people have noticed that using camo nets or having high camo skills did nothing on certain tanks. Instead of coming out and telling us straight up that certain tanks could not benefit from such skills due to how the system worked, we got no real answers. Due to this people thought it might be a bug and started, because they enjoy such challenges, to start digging. When all legal places where people can dig for answers are exhausted, somebody is going to dig somewhere where the devs would rather they are not. In this case it yielded an answer, however that answer was a truth that the devs rather we not know.

If the game is released with all these issues unresolved, opportunists and disgruntled innocent customers alike may end up teaching WN a lesson yet.

Try this scenario, it works for both sets of people. And it doesn't even need to bring in faction bias, or use EULA violating data to prove because everything can be checked in-game with a couple of friends in a training battle.

Say a customer uses X amount of his time to finally tier up to a JagdPanther or Ferdinand or JagdTiger. He grinds all day and night to get them. He wants to play the ultimate German tank destroyers.

He then spends his hard earned real money to buy game gold so that he can convert it to 500,000 game credits to buy a Camouflage Net module. As advertised, he expects the Camouflage Net module to give his vehicle a -25% visibility bonus while stationary.

But in use, the customer discovers that it is not working as advertised. He keeps getting spotted more or less the same as before he bought the module. Further testing with friends and family, he finds out that other tanks can see his tank destroyer just as easily, with or without the Camouflage Net module installed. In other words, the module gives him little to no invisibility bonus at all.

He feels thoroughly disappointed, and also feels absolutely cheated out of his time and money. Being a vengeful person who will never let a wrong go unpunished, he gets a good lawyer and wants to sue the company. The lawyer smells profits and figures that thousands of other customers may be in the same situation, and organizes a class action suit.

The principle involved is false advertising culminating in fraud, which is a Federal offense in the United States of America.

[SpectreHD]

Dekurgan, on Jan 14 2011 - 10:10, said:

From what i can find  just doing a quick search it seems the
ISU152 is 2.48 meters in height.
object 704 is 2.24 meters.
ferdinand is 2.97 meters.
JagdTiger is 2.71 meters.

So as can be seen it appears that the soviet TD's do have a lower profile than the german versions. Though from what has been discussed in this thread it would seem that the advantages given to the soviet vehicles goes way beyond what you would expect from the above figures. Unfortunately due to the censorship that has been used we are no longer able to look at the figures for a proper percentage comparison.
This would seem to verify that there has indeed been a bias towards the soviet vehicles.
**at the end of the day if we arnt given any info to determine how and why the figures came about then it is human nature that people will form their own conclusions. In this case the obvious conclusion would be that the Dev's have been found out and are now keeping quiet in the hope that it will go away**

Devs....

Come on guys , you want us to test this game and (i assume) you want our input. If thats the case then at least do us the courtesy of giving us some input.

Yes, Russian TDs have a lower profile. But the difference from the highest German TD and the lowest Russian TD is only 53cm. The difference is not that much. Only the OP can compare to see if the height of German TDs vs their camo rating is in relation to the Russian TD's height vs their camo rating.

[Dekurgan]

SpectreHD, on Jan 14 2011 - 12:37, said:

Yes, Russian TDs have a lower profile. But the difference from the highest German TD and the lowest Russian TD is only 53cm. The difference is not that much. Only the OP can compare to see if the height of German TDs vs their camo rating is in relation to the Russian TD's height vs their camo rating.

which is exactly what i was saying. I DO believe the system is not being implemented fairly and that they are adjusting things to suit their own ends without using the same level playing field across the board for the various tank types / nations.

Am I wrong in this assumption?  who knows.  We can't tell one way or another because as soon as someone introduces something a little controvertial the Dev's and their forum police do one or more of the following to it :locked , blocked, edited , moved or deleted .

i'd be happy to be proved wrong in this assumption. Please by all means Dev's  enlighten us with the correct information.

oh and forgive me if i don't hold my breath waiting for them to reply.