Jump to content


I loathe the VK4502p


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
161 replies to this topic

Ladydeathstrike #1 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 14:42

    Corporal

  • Beta Testers
  • 13 battles
  • 34
  • Member since:
    11-29-2010
The VK4502 (prototype) is the ugliest, most bogus fictional tank in the game. Its stats are utter BS( not because they are too low, but because they are completely fictional) and its mere existence is an insult to the king tiger.

Matter of fact its the biggest damn developer bungle in game to place the VK a tier ahead of the Tiger II.

matter of fact it is the ONLY case in game where the developmental tanks do not follow their historical paths and a huge egregious slap in the face to German tanks and engineering. Ferdinand Porsche was terrible at designing chassis and there is a reason NONE of his designs were accepted by the convening boards.

Vk3002DB < Panther is CORRECT both in game and historically
Vk3601 < Tiger I is correct both in game and historically
Vk4502(p1) & (p2) < VK4503(Tiger II) WRONG in game and correct historically

Why is it that the same Krupp turret used on the VK4502 and the first 50 king tigers is somehow magically 220/150/150 mm armor thickness on VK yet 100/60/60 on tiger II? OH but the IS4 needs its historical thickness my butt.

The devs are far too inconsistent with their picking and choosing of when to apply historical accuracy for my taste. Sure the game is awesome sweet, but I'm a panzer fan boy and the end tier of the German line makes me puke. NOt only are the tanks aesthetically unpleasing, they are inferior in design and effectiveness to their Russian counterparts. Not only that but I will have to wait until AFTER the french tree to get my hands on an E-75 ot E-100... give me a break. They need to finish and polish the existing trees before bringing in "new" trees.

Edit: Moved to German Heavy section. Removed minor profanity. -Tariz

Hyena #2 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 14:49

    Staff sergeant

  • Beta Testers
  • 0 battles
  • 447
  • Member since:
    07-28-2010

View PostFloridaboy, on Jan 07 2011 - 14:42, said:

They need to finish and polish the existing trees before bringing in "new" trees.

That's something I've been saying for a very long time now. The more factions they bring in, the complicated the entire balancing process becomes. The joke is that Russian and German tanks were the first nations and are still the most unbalanced.

I'd also love to know how the devs are deciding which nations to bring in next, throwing a dart at a map maybe? No offense but adding French tanks before British, who's idea was that?

darzok #3 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 16:11

    Staff sergeant

  • Beta Testers
  • 0 battles
  • 474
  • Member since:
    07-09-2010

View PostWhiteHyena, on Jan 07 2011 - 14:49, said:

I'd also love to know how the devs are deciding which nations to bring in next, throwing a dart at a map maybe? No offense but adding French tanks before British, who's idea was that?

Well look at it this way there main tanks are ingame and nothing after 1940 there tree is easy you add like 5 more tanks you fill thee whole tree ending at T5.

IT was a joke i know there going to add a massive load of bollocks and pull in french tanks made so late we might as well have tanks made in the last few days never mind years.

Solono #4 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 18:08

    Major

  • Beta Testers
  • 18007 battles
  • 2,623
  • [GN0ME] GN0ME
  • Member since:
    07-17-2010
Fine, what would replace it? Tiger II is not a Tier 9 tank without fudging the numbers upward. Can't use any of the E-series. Can't use the Lowe. VK6501 is too small. By then, you run out of (viable) prototypes. There is no real bridge between the Maus and Tiger II logically in the way the game is done so I don't blame them for the Ausf B. Just seems like nitpicking a game where one flank shot doesn't instantly knock out a tank and you can fire and reload full speed on the run about historical accuracy is pretty silly. (Outside of armor values)

Stevepidge #5 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 18:34

    Sergeant

  • Beta Testers
  • 4880 battles
  • 165
  • Member since:
    10-29-2010

View PostSolono, on Jan 07 2011 - 18:08, said:

Fine, what would replace it? Tiger II is not a Tier 9 tank without fudging the numbers upward. Can't use any of the E-series. Can't use the Lowe. VK6501 is too small. By then, you run out of (viable) prototypes. There is no real bridge between the Maus and Tiger II logically in the way the game is done so I don't blame them for the Ausf B. Just seems like nitpicking a game where one flank shot doesn't instantly knock out a tank and you can fire and reload full speed on the run about historical accuracy is pretty silly. (Outside of armor values)


If they are are going to fudge numbers don't make it on a failed prototype.(well you can, but not when that prototype is clearly inferior to an existing production model) Alot of tanks in this game both prototypes and production models do not have accurate setups. For instance the t-54 with t-55 turret...

I have no qualms about fudging the tiger II's numbers to fit it in as an effective tier 9. The Tiger II is a well known fan favorite and to relegate it second fiddle to an obscure wooden mockup is wrong and players who like myself would like to be effective in the infamous Tiger II especially given the High tier importance and lack of proper match making mechanics are going to be disenchanted.

As it stands now the greatest of all German WW2 tanks is not effective in any meaningful way.

Belrick #6 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 18:39

    Captain

  • Beta Testers
  • 14380 battles
  • 1,760
  • Member since:
    07-18-2010
I agree however the KT really does fit tier 8 like a glove.

IMHO they should of gone with the Lowe (heavy) since it was designed after the KT yet before the Maus.

__SNIPER__74 #7 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 18:46

    Major

  • Beta Testers
  • 25383 battles
  • 6,275
  • Member since:
    07-18-2010
Of all the vehicles I've used, something like 30+ - the 4502 is either my least favorite or very near to it.

I still find it funny the VK4502 is one tier higher than the tank it lost too in competition to become  the "Tiger II"  - the vertical side armor is penetrated by anything and everything , even medium length 75mm guns penetrate some of the time.

The Tiger B is just a better design (as it was historically). The only thing that makes the VK45 better in this game is the Hit points and gun selection, both of which could be just as easily reversed...

Stevepidge #8 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 18:50

    Sergeant

  • Beta Testers
  • 4880 battles
  • 165
  • Member since:
    10-29-2010

View PostBelrick, on Jan 07 2011 - 18:39, said:

I agree however the KT really does fit tier 8 like a glove.

IMHO they should of gone with the Lowe.

I agree it does work well in tier 8. BUT

there are mitigating circumstance involved especially considering development times and matching up tanks that would never have seen each other on a battlefield in the first place

everything up to tier 8 works both historically and gameplay wise. However, at tier 9 tanks take a quantum leap in both effectiveness and the "what if" department. Its almost like the game is 2 games in one once you reach battles containing tier 9 tanks and pretty much every tank tier 8 and below becomes only a stepping stone to obtain a t9 and t10. At this point historical accuracy goes out the window and the flavor of the German line stagnates into antiquated Hitlerian wet dreams.

VK4502 was developed before the tiger II and is historically incorrect, aesthetically unpopular, and effectively inferior both in design ( rear mounted turret not suited for peekaboo gameplay) and performance to the corresponding T9 lines.

How many German players absolutely stop at the tiger II? I sure as hell did.

__SNIPER__74 #9 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 18:53

    Major

  • Beta Testers
  • 25383 battles
  • 6,275
  • Member since:
    07-18-2010

View PostStevepidge, on Jan 07 2011 - 18:50, said:

How many German players absolutely stop at the tiger II? I sure as hell did.

I should have.

I lost something like 5 million credits buying and selling the 4502 and Pz VIII. I had a couple good games, but being a giant and slow artillery magnet just isn't fun IMO.

The Tiger B currently represents the best of the German vehicles.

Here's hoping for the E series...

edit - ive actually driven 51 vehicles, it's the least fun out of 51 vehicles I've used lulz...

devxcil #10 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 18:56

    Sergeant

  • Beta Testers
  • 0 battles
  • 183
  • Member since:
    09-28-2010
The question is not what should bridge the gap between the Tier 8 Tiger II and the Tier 10 Maus.

The question is, should the Maus even be a Tier 10? The only reason's it is one (barely) is because the devs have now inflated its hitpoints.



If it were up to me, I'd make the Maus a decent Tier 9 tank, and have the E-Series branch provide the E-100 as a Tier 10 Tank.

The Tier 7 Tiger would then go on into the Tier 8 Tiger II, with a side branch that allows you to choose a Tier 8 VK4502p. Just like the KV-3 and KV-1s are set up in the russian tree.

boxtosser #11 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 19:58

    Captain

  • Beta Testers
  • 7297 battles
  • 1,348
  • Member since:
    07-14-2010

View PostStevepidge, on Jan 07 2011 - 18:34, said:


I have no qualms about fudging the tiger II's numbers to fit it in as an effective tier 9. The Tiger II is a well known fan favorite and to relegate it second fiddle to an obscure wooden mockup is wrong and players who like myself would like to be effective in the infamous Tiger II especially given the High tier importance and lack of proper match making mechanics are going to be disenchanted.

Amen.  The endgame and clan wars are going to be dominated by postwar and fantasy tanks that, were they not in the game, most people wouldn't miss.  The main tanks that were the most famous or most numerous WWII vehicles have largely been relegated to mid to low tier cannon fodder to be quickly bypassed by "hardcore" gamers who want to race to Tier X as soon as possible.

Mormoran #12 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 20:31

    Corporal

  • Beta Testers
  • 1507 battles
  • 33
  • Member since:
    09-15-2010

View PostFloridaboy, on Jan 07 2011 - 14:42, said:

Why is it that the same Krupp turret used on the VK4502 and the first 50 king tigers is somehow magically 220/150/150 mm armor thickness on VK yet 100/60/60 on tiger II? OH but the IS4 needs its historical thickness my butt.

The devs are far too inconsistent with their picking and choosing of when to apply historical accuracy for my taste.


derkb #13 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 20:41

    Sergeant

  • Beta Testers
  • 0 battles
  • 109
  • Member since:
    09-06-2010
Hmm, history hits again?

First what is your source for the 4503 is the King Tiger? Would realy like to know, cause i had in mind it was the 4502 (H).

But now to the real point, does someone even know why they picked the Henschel design?

I mean why should they pick a tank that would cost more resources, more time to produce, more maintenance in the field over a more conservative and more easy to build one?
They were allready lagging resources for the war, not to mention that Henschel was allready one of the main tank building companys of that time.

It is the same like today, why does a country not pick the better plane for example and buys an other one, politics.

So the devs did what they know, the Tiger II followed the Tiger and placed it a tier over the Tiger, so they were doing fine with that.

And now they had to fill the point for the tier IX slot, why not take the vk4502 wich could have been the better King Tiger, who knows.
The Maus then was the end of the line.
Even the final tree is well planned according to history, the E-Series comes out of the Tiger I, so E-50 wich is close to the Tiger II is same tier.

Afterall this is only a point of view, you can view it from your side and from an other side.

And if you put history in your post, maybe do not go that flat by simple say that one was produced, the other one lost thats all.

Oh and to the E-Series and E-100 be tier X, we will get it as a tier X so thats not a point and making E-Series a extra line is a nice idea.


ps. if you take the final german tree and watch the line comming from the med tree you will find a porsche line from 3001 (P) over the Tiger (P), the two 4502 versions from Porsche to the Maus, i bet they did not simple put some tanks in a row and thats it.

Regards
derkb

Hyena #14 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 20:49

    Staff sergeant

  • Beta Testers
  • 0 battles
  • 447
  • Member since:
    07-28-2010

View Postdevxcil, on Jan 07 2011 - 18:56, said:

The question is, should the Maus even be a Tier 10? The only reason's it is one (barely) is because the devs have now inflated its hitpoints.

Personally I love the look of the Maus (I think I'm one of the few that does?) and already knowing about it prior to playing this game, I was thrilled to see it as the German heavy end-game. It's not until I actually started playing as a Maus that I realized how utterly shit it is and I can now see why so many people dislike it. I think it's a shame, the Maus should be a tier 10 tank but it needs some attention from the devs- and I mean real attention not just 'Meh lets give it a little more hp, that'll shut them up' <_< The Maus should be a crawling fortress, at the moment it's more like one giant joke to the enemy and one giant slap in the face to anyone that grinded all the way up the German line.

The problem I see in the future is that, with the E-series, the devs are going to basically replace the Maus, making it possible for players to pick an alternative heavy route. That's not a bad thing of course, variety is great. The problem I see here is that the Maus was never meant to have the weakling 128mm gun the devs have given it, Hitler wanted it to have the 150mm, that's the gun it should have. The devs have already said the Maus definatly won't get the 150mm, which makes no sense to me at all, yet they are willing to give the 150mm to the E-series?

If you've got a choice between two tier 10 tanks, one with a 128mm and one with a 150mm, which are you honestly going to pick? O_o

While I'm looking forward to the E-series, it really is going to be a nail in the coffin for the Maus (and probably the VK45 as well if the E-series stems from the Tiger/KT).

The whole situation irritates me beyond belief, everyone knows how weak the Maus is, everyone knows how easily it can be destroyed. You could quite easily give the Maus the 150mm, take off 500hp or so and it'd be fine. I'm sure some Russian fanboys would cry that it'd become overpowered but honestly, with it's massive profile, 20km/h speed and insanely crap maneuverability it'd still be a very easy tank to damage/destroy.

If the devs refuse to give the Maus the gun it should have then they have to increase its armour. If it dosen't have firepower, it must have armour. It has to have something that compensates it for the slow speed and non-existent maneuverability.. and no hit-points are no substitute. HP dosen't do you any good when every single shell from your enemy penetrates and damages you.

As for the VK45, yes I think it looks stupid and yes it makes no damn sense that it's above the KT. With that said I love my VK :P Once you know how to use it, it's one hell of a strong tank and nets me profit every game. Would I rather see the KT buffed and made tier 9? Yes. Is it ever going to happen? No.

Stevepidge #15 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 20:50

    Sergeant

  • Beta Testers
  • 4880 battles
  • 165
  • Member since:
    10-29-2010

View Postderkb, on Jan 07 2011 - 20:41, said:

Hmm, history hits again?

First what is your source for the 4503 is the King Tiger? Would realy like to know, cause i had in mind it was the 4502 (H).

But now to the real point, does someone even know why they picked the Henschel design?

I mean why should they pick a tank that would cost more resources, more time to produce, more maintenance in the field over a more conservative and more easy to build one?
They were allready lagging resources for the war, not to mention that Henschel was allready one of the main tank building companys of that time.

It is the same like today, why does a country not pick the better plane for example and buys an other one, politics.

So the devs did what they know, the Tiger II followed the Tiger and placed it a tier over the Tiger, so they were doing fine with that.

And now they had to fill the point for the tier IX slot, why not take the vk4502 wich could have been the better King Tiger, who knows.
The Maus then was the end of the line.
Even the final tree is well planned according to history, the E-Series comes out of the Tiger I, so E-50 wich is close to the Tiger II is same tier.

Afterall this is only a point of view, you can view it from your side and from an other side.

And if you put history in your post, maybe do not go that flat by simple say that one was produced, the other one lost thats all.

Oh and to the E-Series and E-100 be tier X, we will get it as a tier X so thats not a point and making E-Series a extra line is a nice idea.


ps. if you take the final german tree and watch the line comming from the med tree you will find a porsche line from 3001 (P) over the Tiger (P), the two 4502 versions from Porsche to the Maus, i bet they did not simple put some tanks in a row and thats it.

Regards
derkb


Yes it was the 4503.

Unfortunately for Dr. Porsche his fascination with advanced engine design led to the ultimate failure of the VK 4502 (P). The 10-cylinder engines failed during trials, and there was no confidence that the design would bear fruit (given previous Porsche failures using the same drivetrain layout). In November of 1942, all of the contracts relating to the VK 4502 (P) were rescinded.

So yes indeed it is inferior to the Henschel tiger II chassis.

and making the E series an extra line is a bad idea that will only increase the grinding necessary to obtain one, not to mention that it has no relation to the tiger II and will not be obtainable from the tiger II. Despite teh E-50 and E-75 being a direct derivative of the Tiger II.

Stevepidge #16 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 20:52

    Sergeant

  • Beta Testers
  • 4880 battles
  • 165
  • Member since:
    10-29-2010

View PostWhiteHyena, on Jan 07 2011 - 20:49, said:


While I'm looking forward to the E-series, it really is going to be a nail in the coffin for the Maus (and probably the VK45 as well if the E-series stems from the Tiger/KT).


The problem is the E series will stem from the Tiger I. The Tiger II will continue to lead on to the Maus. Which is wrong..

Valeriadrina #17 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 21:02

    Staff sergeant

  • Beta Testers
  • 0 battles
  • 289
  • Member since:
    08-12-2010
Maus and VK should become premium tanks, both of them are kind of oddballs. Tier 8 or 9 for VK and tier 10 for Maus.

RAZORLIGHT #18 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 21:07

    Staff sergeant

  • Beta Testers
  • 0 battles
  • 301
  • Member since:
    11-25-2010
just make the VK T8 KT T9 and rebalance both give the maus a huge buff and everythings fine

if they dont nobody will play the KT VK or Maus after the E-Series release

Stevepidge #19 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 21:13

    Sergeant

  • Beta Testers
  • 4880 battles
  • 165
  • Member since:
    10-29-2010

View PostRAZORLIGHT, on Jan 07 2011 - 21:07, said:

just make the VK T8 KT T9 and rebalance both give the maus a huge buff and everythings fine

if they dont nobody will play the KT VK or Maus after the E-Series release


An excellent summation of the entire argument I commend you sir.

Overlord #20 Posted Jan 07 2011 - 21:14

    Commander

  • Developer
  • 30 battles
  • 5,276
  • Member since:
    06-03-2010

View PostWhiteHyena, on Jan 07 2011 - 14:49, said:

That's something I've been saying for a very long time now. The more factions they bring in, the complicated the entire balancing process becomes. The joke is that Russian and German tanks were the first nations and are still the most unbalanced.

I'd also love to know how the devs are deciding which nations to bring in next, throwing a dart at a map maybe? No offense but adding French tanks before British, who's idea was that?

Rebalancing will take place non-stop after release as well. It's inevitable, the more tanks we have, the more difficult the whole system becomes. Current balance between factions is quite ok, but there are several weak spots like tier 9-10 US tanks, Maus, IS-4 (better than counterparts) and some others. Current trees will be reworked, especially US and Soviet ones. Regarding German tree, production of E-series will be speeded up.

It was our idea to implement French tanks first. Do many people know much about them? Have they been represented in other games much? I think, no to both.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users