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37mm Gun T16, Part II


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The_Chieftain #1 Posted Jul 04 2013 - 02:15

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A little over two months ago, I put up an article about an interesting discovery that I made about the 37mm Automatic Gun T16. It was one of those random discoveries that one makes when just blindly dipping into the boxes in the National Archives.

Near as I could tell, this was a piece of equipment totally lost to history. At least, nobody else could provide any information on the program, either in books or on the Web. It was one of those satisfying little discoveries that makes this job so enjoyable, and though disappointed that the document didn’t have any pictures to complete the discovery, I was happy enough that I was able to even get that much out.

As you may be aware, a little over a month ago I went back to the National Archives for a little more digging. To my total astonishment, the very first box I opened up was the test report of the 37mm Automatic Gun T16 as mounted in the M5 light tank.

Not only did I re-discover a lost item once, I re-discovered it a second time. And this time, it had pictures, so the persons on the forum hypothesizing over what it looked like can now get their answers.

This second report follows:

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The_Chieftain #2 Posted Jul 06 2013 - 05:40

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The Chieftain is Wargaming America's resident tank guru. If you'd like to stay abreast of his comings and goings, feel free to "Like" The Chieftain on Facebook and follow The Chieftain on Twitter.

Dominatus #3 Posted Jul 06 2013 - 16:58

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One has to wonder how something like this manages to fade into obscurity.

That said, is there any possibility at all of putting this into the game? 3 round burst 37mm on the M5 would be, if not useful, fun.

Scaedugenga #4 Posted Jul 06 2013 - 16:59

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Huh.  Looks like an over-grown Ma Deuce.  Gotta admit, though - nice to see that there used to be a time when contractors for the government were willing to admit that it would be too problematic to make the changes, rather than tryand weasel out the contract by saying it could be done for x million per vehicle, then let it bloat into 3X or 4X million per vehicle.

Mack54 #5 Posted Jul 06 2013 - 17:48

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I agree with Scaedugenga, it does bear more than a passing resemblance to the Ma Deuce. I do not pretend to be anywhere near the brain John Browning was, but I think that by rotating the "clip" and loading system 90 degrees up or down the thing would have worked. Think either Thompson submachine gun or Bren Gun. And the T.C. would still have had a job. And no I'm not Rube Goldberg's off the books son.

Tedster_ #6 Posted Jul 06 2013 - 18:23

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this could be an interesting gun for the M5

caseyholland #7 Posted Jul 06 2013 - 19:07

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View PostMack54, on Jul 06 2013 - 17:48, said:

I agree with Scaedugenga, it does bear more than a passing resemblance to the Ma Deuce. I do not pretend to be anywhere near the brain John Browning was, but I think that by rotating the "clip" and loading system 90 degrees up or down the thing would have worked. Think either Thompson submachine gun or Bren Gun. And the T.C. would still have had a job. And no I'm not Rube Goldberg's off the books son.
I agree i resembles a ma duece and I would love to see it incorporated into the game

Foxton #8 Posted Jul 06 2013 - 19:27

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View PostMack54, on Jul 06 2013 - 17:48, said:

I agree with Scaedugenga, it does bear more than a passing resemblance to the Ma Deuce. I do not pretend to be anywhere near the brain John Browning was, but I think that by rotating the "clip" and loading system 90 degrees up or down the thing would have worked. Think either Thompson submachine gun or Bren Gun. And the T.C. would still have had a job. And no I'm not Rube Goldberg's off the books son.

I'd imagine there would still be the gyro destabilisation problem and a redesigned gun mount regardless. Plus I imagine a 5-8 round 37mm magazine would be rather large no matter which way it faced, just look at the 37mm AA gun with a 10-round clip:
http://www.antiaircr...images/37mm.jpg

usmccog #9 Posted Jul 06 2013 - 20:00

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It could have been set up like a top loading bofors 40mm. I should have come down to the archives with you. There are a few of us who live in DC actually.

Rocketmandb #10 Posted Jul 06 2013 - 21:22

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I love reading these little gems you dig up in the archives. I grew up in the DC area and used to research some WWII stuff there when I was in high school. I was researching ship deployments in the Pacific, primarily Japanese warships. So much fun digging through declassified docs. I never looked for equipment tests like you've been unearthing - keep feeding us this stuff, much appreciated!

redplauge #11 Posted Jul 06 2013 - 21:40

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enjoyed as always.
but on the main site you have page 6 copied in twice.

Taffer1000 #12 Posted Jul 06 2013 - 22:43

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Interesting article. With all the research that has gone into this game, has Wargaming ever thought about coming out with a book series? Like the Osprey Publishing, or Panzer Tracts series.

Dominatus #13 Posted Jul 06 2013 - 22:45

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View PostTaffer1000, on Jul 06 2013 - 22:43, said:

Interesting article. With all the research that has gone into this game, has Wargaming ever thought about coming out with a book series? Like the Osprey Publishing, or Panzer Tracts series.
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Greykemp #14 Posted Jul 06 2013 - 23:26

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Interesting, PLEASE don't put this in the game. Next someone will point out that laser's were tested in the 60's......
It's one thing to find prototypes that were not deployed for various reasons, but there should be a limit.

Steel_Bug #15 Posted Jul 06 2013 - 23:36

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When discussed as AA we find out that everyone was using it.  EBay has some vintage pics on the subject as AA towed, French, Russian, and German.  I also saw it used on the Russian ZU backs years ago.  Big bullet.  Could shoot it 8-10 klicks in the air!

arfmanisawesome21 #16 Posted Jul 07 2013 - 03:00

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looks cool, would be fun to try out on the M5

Fungame2 #17 Posted Jul 07 2013 - 03:58

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If an 8 round auto load was put on the M5 Stuart then i might just be willing to grind the from Stuart to the M7.


That is If i am reading this right.

Edited by Fungame2, Jul 07 2013 - 04:10.


badperson #18 Posted Jul 07 2013 - 05:08

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OMFG @ this find.  Neat.

View PostGreykemp, on Jul 06 2013 - 23:26, said:

Interesting, PLEASE don't put this in the game. Next someone will point out that laser's were tested in the 60's......
It's one thing to find prototypes that were not deployed for various reasons, but there should be a limit.
I don't know if this should or shouldn't be ingame, but I must comment:  I have much less of a problem with prototype equipment when it makes something more powerful than 'stock', compared to when it makes things less powerful.  If KV-1S has to become KV-122 in order to be balanced, great.  If we have to get the M8A1 instead of the actually-deployed M8 in order to have a balanced tier 4 TD, great.  Maybe this T16 gun will buff an underperforming tank.  But please don't use early prototypes of things where the 'stock' equipment would be too powerful.  I'm looking at you, M60, Object whatever (the upcoming T-64 prototype), and yes, even the T-62A.  Stop decade creep please.

View PostDominatus, on Jul 06 2013 - 16:58, said:

One has to wonder how something like this manages to fade into obscurity.
I think we know part of the reason now  :trollface:

adjutant #19 Posted Jul 07 2013 - 07:04

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View PostGreykemp, on Jul 06 2013 - 23:26, said:

Interesting, PLEASE don't put this in the game. Next someone will point out that laser's were tested in the 60's......

View PostFungame2, on Jul 07 2013 - 03:58, said:

If an 8 round auto load was put on the M5 Stuart then i might just be willing to grind the from Stuart to the M7.

I don't see how an auto-loading 37mm M6 could ever be considered powerful or 'too good for this game'. The 37mm M6 as it is in-game is an extremely weak gun at tier 4. Perhaps it's fine for the M3 Stuart to be absolutely helpless against tier 5 heavily armored vehicles, since it's just a tier 3 light tank. But for the M5 Stuart, getting this auto-loading gun would be purely novelty and worse than than the 75mm Howitzer with M8 turret in nearly every case.

It's a really interesting find, to just enjoy it for what it is. As far as any in-game potential, it's not even worth discussing. You would have to fix the 37mm M6 gun first, before even considering this thing.

nublex #20 Posted Jul 07 2013 - 17:09

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It would be a nice addition to the Staurt family, maybe we can have a M3A3 with T16 for the French?




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