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Alternate History Scenario with a Side of Tanks


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Daigensui #21 Posted Jul 14 2013 - 16:15

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View PostZinegata, on Jul 14 2013 - 16:04, said:

Offhand, the biggest problem that the IJA will encounter is not a lack of tanks, but the general lack of motorized transport, artillery, and anti-tank capability of any sort.

For starters, Japan and Daikoraikoku are in different geostrategical positions. Japan never needed automobiles except as status symbols, which is a large reason why the industry never grew. A continental country like Daikoraikoku on the other hand will naturally have such an industry, especially if the oil fields are discovered sooner.

Second, Porsche is just a mini side story, not affecting the general flow.

Life_In_Black #22 Posted Jul 14 2013 - 16:29

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View PostDaigensui, on Jul 14 2013 - 16:15, said:

For starters, Japan and Daikoraikoku are in different geostrategical positions. Japan never needed automobiles except as status symbols, which is a large reason why the industry never grew. A continental country like Daikoraikoku on the other hand will naturally have such an industry, especially if the oil fields are discovered sooner.

Second, Porsche is just a mini side story, not affecting the general flow.

He does raise a good point though. What if any countries will be investing in Daikoraikoku?

Zinegata #23 Posted Jul 15 2013 - 03:32

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Jul 14 2013 - 16:29, said:

He does raise a good point though. What if any countries will be investing in Daikoraikoku?

That's why I mentioned Ford and the major US auto-makers. It has to be America. The German auto industry frankly sucked at this point and didn't have the capital to really invest in other nations.

Japan making a deal with Porche means they'll end up importing over-engineered Porche products. Ford buying Mitsubishi however can potentially provide the Japanese with a few real mass-production capable factories.

Wyvern2 #24 Posted Jul 15 2013 - 03:50

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The Japanese tank inventory still wouldn't be much improved though, due to the fact that in 1945, the US had a stranglehold on the islands, nothing was going in or out and production would suffer, doesnt matter how many factories you have or how well they're geared if none of your resources are coming through

Life_In_Black #25 Posted Jul 15 2013 - 12:03

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View PostWyvern2, on Jul 15 2013 - 03:50, said:

The Japanese tank inventory still wouldn't be much improved though, due to the fact that in 1945, the US had a stranglehold on the islands, nothing was going in or out and production would suffer, doesnt matter how many factories you have or how well they're geared if none of your resources are coming through

This isn't for Japan, it's for the Daikoraikoku, which will be industrialized. Don't forget, the POD is 1909.

Daigensui #26 Posted Jul 17 2013 - 22:48

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Jul 14 2013 - 16:29, said:

He does raise a good point though. What if any countries will be investing in Daikoraikoku?

Obviously the United States. There was already a sizable Korean community, so it's the most obvious.


View PostZinegata, on Jul 15 2013 - 03:32, said:

That's why I mentioned Ford and the major US auto-makers. It has to be America. The German auto industry frankly sucked at this point and didn't have the capital to really invest in other nations.

It doesn't have to be Ford or other automobile manufacturers.


View PostZinegata, on Jul 15 2013 - 03:32, said:

Japan making a deal with Porche means they'll end up importing over-engineered Porche products. Ford buying Mitsubishi however can potentially provide the Japanese with a few real mass-production capable factories.

1. What does Japan have anything to do here?
2. Japanese mercantilism dictates otherwise.

Life_In_Black #27 Posted Jul 17 2013 - 22:52

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View PostDaigensui, on Jul 17 2013 - 22:48, said:

Obviously the United States. There was already a sizable Korean community, so it's the most obvious.




It doesn't have to be Ford or other automobile manufacturers.




1. What does Japan have anything to do here?
2. Japanese mercantilism dictates otherwise.

Perhaps a few minor auto companies could be persuaded to jump ship and invest in Daikoraikoku. It would breed healthy competition (I hope), as well as prevent a monopoly from taking place like Italy's problem with Fiat-Ansaldo. Or it could be General Motors, much like how they owned all of Opel during WWII.

Zinegata #28 Posted Jul 19 2013 - 02:56

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View PostDaigensui, on Jul 17 2013 - 22:48, said:

It doesn't have to be Ford or other automobile manufacturers.

No, but a major automobile manufacturer is the best choice given that they have capitalization and the know-how for techniques of mass production. Heck, you could even have General Motors buy out Mitsubishi instead of Opel like they did historically.

Quote

1. What does Japan have anything to do here?
2. Japanese mercantilism dictates otherwise.

German car manufacturers at this point were lacking in capital to expand overseas operations; which is why they kept exporting goods and looking for new markets. That's why Porche's visit is going to be one wherein he's trying to open a new market for his products made in Germany; not to make a new factory in Asia.

Also, the zaibatsus won't go quietly, but that's really why an American auto giant is the best candidate. They have lots of capital to effect very lucrative buy-outs. Note also that this doesn't mean that GM-owned Mitsubishi is gonna roll out Sherman tanks for the IJA - Opel's German managers still pretty much controlled the day-to-day operations of the company along with many of their designs.

Daigensui #29 Posted Jul 19 2013 - 03:08

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Given the circumstances of Japan, what you propose is ASB territory. There is a loophole to this, which I plan on exploiting.

SoukouDragon #30 Posted Jul 19 2013 - 03:52

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Very interesting and fun read.

Before the Meiji era...before the 1860s, Korea and Japan had good relations. The Koreans were just a little suspicious of welcoming the Japanese to their land ever since the Hideyoshi invasion back in around 1600. But the good relations was that once every decade or so, a huge massive Korean caravan with 100s or thousands 1000s of (well, wiki has 400-500) Koreans with artists, musicians, royalty, servants, etc made a huge trip to the host Japan. The Japanese prepared all the lodgings, food, etc. it was a very expensive and fanciful event indeed. As the Korean caravan moved through Japan on multiple river boats or on land, the Japanese peasants would watch along the sidelines cheering. Upon reaching their destination, the Korean intellectuals and artist enjoyed good times and exchanged knowledge and ideas with their Japanese counterparts.

The two countries also had trade during this period with a Japanese trade post in Pusan. There were a few occasions where there was more trading then preferred by the Korean government going on which caused a little strife but that was mostly because sometimes the Korean government wanted strict regulations on trade to be followed while some Korean merchants wanted to trade more than the government specified.

I don't remember the exact dates but I probably could dig them up from my materials, but, between around 1650 up to around 1830 or so, I think there was about 14 of such Korean caravans.

Here is the wiki on the envoys
https://en.wikipedia...oseon_Tongsinsa

So with that said, fast forward to the late 1890s, after the Japanese fought and defeated the Russians over Korea, instead of having the intentions to colonize Korea, Japan takes the path to make a strong Asian ally out of Korea by helping them regain the lost territory of the old Koryo state. This would create a strong bond between the two as both recognize that they will need each other to create a prospeity sphere in Asia free of western imperialists.

So then with that, could that change the overall strategy? Maybe coordinate with Germany to knock out the Soviet Union? That would put more emphasis on tank development. If oil reserves are found in mainland Asia, that may reduce the impact of the oil trade embargo te US put on Japan meaning that Japan could avoid a pearl harbor plan.

Daigensui #31 Posted Jul 21 2013 - 12:33

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Chi-To Kai:

Posted Image

A Germanized version of Chi-To, made by Daikoraikoku in late 1945. It utilizes Schachtellaufwerk to uphold the extra weight (thicker armor and larger turret/armament) and Schürzen to increase defense of its thinner side armor more effective against anti-tank fire. In addition, armor plates and advanced welding skills from Germany has increased the structural integrity of the vehicle, allowing it to face the Soviet Union's T-34-85 tanks.

Width :3.06m
Hull Length:6.34m
Height: 3.14m
Weight: 38 tons
Main armament: Type 5 10 cm Tank Gun
Engine: Mitsubishi AL Type 4 V-12 diesel engine with supercharger (500 hp at 2,100 rpm)
Speed: 52.5 km/h
Crew: 5

Life_In_Black #32 Posted Jul 21 2013 - 14:53

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Not bad! I would say slope the front hull more and eliminate the bow gun. Not quite sure what that would do to the weight though.

Daigensui #33 Posted Oct 05 2013 - 15:51

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So, I've been playing around with the tanks for this alternate history, and got three mass-produced projects for the final campaign with the Soviet Union:


1. Oyamaneko/Surasoni (Lynx): Korai version of T-25, with autoloader and a gun capable of penetrating 135 mm at 100 meters
2. Korou/Horang (Tiger): Korai version of Chi-To, upgunned with Type 99 8 cm AA Gun to face the T-34/85s.
3. Shishi/Saja (Lion): Porsche-designed heavy tank. Basically a VK 45.02 (P) which was designed to be around 60 tons, with 125 mm frontal hull armor and a 10.5 cm gun.

Life_In_Black #34 Posted Oct 05 2013 - 16:34

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Makes sense to me. What about an IFV/APC?

Wyvern2 #35 Posted Oct 05 2013 - 16:39

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Run into ISU's and IS-3's, shellshock does the rest  :trollface:
but nice ideas either way

Daigensui #36 Posted Oct 05 2013 - 16:41

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I didn't bring out the big guns yet. These are main service tanks :blinky:

Life_In_Black #37 Posted Oct 05 2013 - 16:59

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View PostDaigensui, on Oct 05 2013 - 16:41, said:

I didn't bring out the big guns yet. These are main service tanks :blinky:

You mean there's a Maus/O-I like project?  :ohmy:

Daigensui #38 Posted Oct 05 2013 - 17:10

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Oct 05 2013 - 16:59, said:

You mean there's a Maus/O-I like project? :ohmy:

No, things like putting 12 cm and 15 cm guns onto tank destroyers.

Life_In_Black #39 Posted Oct 05 2013 - 17:26

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View PostDaigensui, on Oct 05 2013 - 17:10, said:


No, things like putting 12 cm and 15 cm guns onto tank destroyers.

Oh. Well, as long as Dr. Porsche isn't allowed to get into the sake and start proposing Maus-like vehicles. Is the Korou/Horang sloped, or will that be an upgraded version? And would turning the Oyamaneko/Surasoni into a 12cm armed Wafffenträger be possible?

Daigensui #40 Posted Oct 05 2013 - 17:31

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Oct 05 2013 - 17:26, said:

Oh. Well, as long as Dr. Porsche isn't allowed to get into the sake and start proposing Maus-like vehicles.

Haven't though much into it. Plus, I doubt the Korai Imperial Family would have liked such a thing.


View PostLife_In_Black, on Oct 05 2013 - 17:26, said:

Is the Korou/Horang sloped, or will that be an upgraded version?

Frontal armor is sloped.


View PostLife_In_Black, on Oct 05 2013 - 17:26, said:

And would turning the Oyamaneko/Surasoni into a 12cm armed Wafffenträger be possible?

I don't think Korai would be that desperate to resort to Wafffenträger designs.




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