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Lert's guides to shells, shell types and shell mechanics


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SCarton #41 Posted Jan 22 2014 - 20:09

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Duh. Right. Ignore me!

WhichOnelsWill #42 Posted Jan 22 2014 - 20:43

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I need some help with shells, there's a couple questions I need answered.  Firstly, APCR vs. AP, I know that APCR loses penetration more rapidly than does AP, but is there ever a point where APCR pen is lower than AP pen?  My instincts tell me yes, but I remember reading someone crunching numbers on the WTFE-100's penetration and the lowest the APCR could ever get (after like 700m) is 297mm pen, which is 22mm more than the AP rounds.  Is this true, and is this the case for all tanks?

 

Secondly, how exactly does HE bleed through?  I think I remember reading somewhere that it'll go through only the thickness, and so armor angling doesn't have any impact on HE rounds.  However, I've seen many instances where that hasn't been that case.



Lert #43 Posted Jan 22 2014 - 20:53

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I don't know, and I'm not sure.

 

First one, seems to me that's dependent on the tank and the difference between AP and APCR pen. The 88 L/71 for example doesn't have much difference of pen between the two. However I don't have exact numbers.

 

Second one, the way I think it works is that the game draws lines from the point of impact and calculates the bleedthrough based on the length of the shortest straight line. Don't hang me up on this, though - I'm not entirely sure.



Frijolero #44 Posted Jan 22 2014 - 22:11

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View PostWhichOnelsWill, on Jan 22 2014 - 16:43, said:

Secondly, how exactly does HE bleed through?  I think I remember reading somewhere that it'll go through only the thickness, and so armor angling doesn't have any impact on HE rounds.  However, I've seen many instances where that hasn't been that case.

 

http://worldoftanks....ge-explanation/

 

Basically the HE blast will search for the weakest spot and then calculates HP and module damage. It doesn't it says directly, but from the images it seems the cone is drawn perpendicular to the armor (i.e. 90°), so it always uses the real armor thickness to calculate how much damage it bleed through the taget's armor and which modules/crew are hit by it.


Edited by Frijolero, Jan 22 2014 - 22:15.


Lucius_Stertinius #45 Posted Jan 25 2014 - 21:36

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In one of the school buildings at Fort Knox (the US Army Armor School), they used to have a 2'x3' piece of armor plate.  It had two holes in it, one marked "SABOT", and one marked "HEAT".  There was also a slightly discolored area marked "HEP".  If you looked at the back, the APFSDS round (Sabot) had made a neat hole, with a few radial cracks, a little over an inch in diameter.  The HEAT round made a mess of molten steel like a frozen splash out the back side.  The HEP round (High-Explosive Plastic, same as the British HESH) hadn't penetrated at all.  It did, however, break off a chunk of metal about the size and shape of a dinner plate, which would have become rather lethal shrapnel or "spalling".

Dunfalach #46 Posted Jan 27 2014 - 17:00

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bumping

LtStaffel #47 Posted Feb 17 2014 - 00:58

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Thanks for the summary!

Tazilon #48 Posted Feb 18 2014 - 19:07

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Lert - maybe I missed it but HE will cause many more Crit Hits than will the other types of ammo.

uberdice #49 Posted Feb 19 2014 - 09:07

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View PostTazilon, on Feb 19 2014 - 05:07, said:

Lert - maybe I missed it but HE will cause many more Crit Hits than will the other types of ammo.

 

Is this an inherent bonus that HE damage receives, or is it a function of the HE shell drawing multiple damage "rays" as opposed to the single ray that other shells do, meaning more chances to deal critical damage?

 

I can't remember seeing anything official about this.



Lert #50 Posted Feb 19 2014 - 14:09

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View Postuberdice, on Feb 19 2014 - 08:07, said:

 

or is it a function of the HE shell drawing multiple damage "rays" as opposed to the single ray that other shells do, meaning more chances to deal critical damage?

This seems more likely.

 

However, again, I don't know for sure, which is why I haven't included it in my guide.



uberdice #51 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 01:11

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View PostLert, on Feb 20 2014 - 00:09, said:

This seems more likely.

 

However, again, I don't know for sure, which is why I haven't included it in my guide.

 

Would be interesting to see something official from WG about this, because it would change the way I aim my HE shells.



Tazilon #52 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 10:36

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View PostLert, on Feb 19 2014 - 13:09, said:

This seems more likely.

 

However, again, I don't know for sure, which is why I haven't included it in my guide.

 

When HE explodes on a tank, it produces a 45 degree wide cone of damage radiating outward along an axis normal to the point of impact/penetration.  Because of this cone of damage as opposed to straight line damage of other shells, it has a much greater chance of affecting equipment and crew - it has a better chance of hitting them!  

 

Think of it as a rifle and shotgun fired in a china shop.  The shotgun may not have the pen of a rifle, but its blast spreads out and covers more area than the rifle, thus the shotgun would break more things in the shop, whereas the rifle would cause one thin line of damage.


Edited by Tazilon, Feb 20 2014 - 10:45.


Lert #53 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 11:39

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That's good info, I'll edit my op later today with that info.

 

[Edit]

 

OP updated with info about 45 degree cone-of-rays, as well as a more in-depth explanation about modules and module / crew damage.



Hieroph4nt #54 Posted Mar 05 2014 - 04:22

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I might also add (and if this is correct, please tell me) that someone mentioned to me that ACPR has twice the velocity speed of AP rounds meanwhile HEAT travels roughly half as fast. I don't know if my numbers are 100% correct.

Phrash #55 Posted Mar 05 2014 - 05:13

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View PostLert, on Aug 23 2013 - 13:51, said:

Overmatch:


... Unless your shell is simply so huge and your target simply so flimsy that your shell simply overmatches your target's armor.If a shell's diameter (caliber) is 3 times the thickness of the armor it hits (For example, a 120mm shell impacting a 40mm armor plate), it will overmatch the armor and go through, regardless of angle-of-impact or normalization.

I'm not sure if somebody else has pointed this out, but considering it is still in the original post, I'll say it anyway. Is this statement accurate? According to the WoT wiki, "If the AP or APCR shell caliber is 3 times or more than the nominal thickness of the armour (such as a 120mm shell hitting a 40mm thick plate), no ricochet will happen even if the impact angle is more than 70° from normal. The increased shell normalization described above will also occur." and the Tank Inspector program by Smellyriver also tell a slightly different bit of information. The shell can not ricochet, but it still has to bypass the heavily normalized armor angle. This theoretically means that the shell can fail to penetrate even during a 3x overmatch. Is this possible in game? The only example I can think of off the top of my head is a KV-2 firing regular AP at over 550m where the penetration value has dropped to a point where it could bounce off of an extremely heavily angled bit of thin armor even though it was a 3x overmatch.

 

​While this is a fairly rare occurrence, I thought it may still be worth mentioning. It could even explain those freak bounces people see at times (although I'm sure the chance of something like this happening are minuscule at best).



Rudolf94 #56 Posted Apr 08 2014 - 14:23

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Very informative. Thank you sir.

Lert #57 Posted Apr 08 2014 - 17:28

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View PostPhrash, on Mar 05 2014 - 05:13, said:

Is this statement accurate?

Yes it is. It was tested in various training rooms by various people. Overmatch > ricochet.



Seraph062 #58 Posted Apr 08 2014 - 17:54

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View PostLert, on Apr 08 2014 - 18:28, said:

Yes it is. It was tested in various training rooms by various people. Overmatch > ricochet.

But I don't think that is what he's questioning. I think he's questioning "Overmatch = autopen" which is what ".If a shell's diameter (caliber) is 3 times the thickness of the armor it hits [...], it will overmatch the armor and go through" sounds like.

 

My understanding always was that a shell with overmatch will not autobounce, and will recieve a massive normalization bonus (like 20+ degrees) but still has to have enough penetration to defeat the armor it is hitting.

 

Thinking about this after I posted: About the only way there would be an effective difference is if you had a tank with really godawful pen compared to its caliber. I mean, with the increased normalization you'd be hard pressed to have an effective angle of more then 65 degrees, which would give an effective armor thickness of about 2.4x the base. For a hit at 100m or less your pen would have to be less then 80% of your gun caliber. Guns with pen lower then their caliber are rare. The ones I can think of are the godawful short 75 on low tier Germans (43mm), the 105mm derp on the Hetzer (64mm), and the stock 47mm gun on the B1 (25mm).


Edited by Seraph062, Apr 08 2014 - 18:54.


Lert #59 Posted Apr 08 2014 - 20:42

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Far as I know, the shell simply goes through. However, that is something that will happen so very rarely as to be statistically insignificant.

ga29785 #60 Posted Apr 28 2014 - 06:38

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Ok...I have a few questions on this topic...and several other possibly unrelated things. I have a fully upgraded t29 with crew around 80 percent on their first skill. I am something of a noob I guess (I checked on noob meter) but I am wondering about my general future plans.

 

So, here goes nothing. 

 

1. I am planning on grinding the whole U.S. Heavy line; is the T32 really that bad? Should I use Premium rounds on it, and can I make a profit from using premium rounds on your average game? 

 

2. I have around only 1000 free XP right now. I'm saving up for the apparently painful m103 stock grind. How much free xp do good players like quickly baby normally have on hand? 

 

3. For the T110e5, what are the HEAT rounds generally like? Can I even make a profit with 4,000 credits per pop? Plus, I think that with spaced armor/sloped armor/track hits I may just be wasting my credits. 

 

4. Does anyone know the exact mathematical equation for how much shell penetration is reduced over distance for, say, AP on the T29 top gun? 

 

Thanks a lot- sorry about the somewhat unrelated questions but I'm too lazy to go find a more suitable place to post my nagging. :) 






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