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The logical argument to whining about the KV-1S being OP

KV-1S NOT_OP

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ATF_OutLaw #41 Posted Dec 30 2013 - 23:48

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View PostFrostMoon, on Sep 10 2013 - 21:59, said:

I once one shot a KV-1S in my KV-2...oh the fun that was.

 

I one-shot a KV-1s in my KV-1s, he burnt out the remaining 150-200hp. I still cannot figure out where exactly I shot him. I shot him through a bush and he was at an angle. It kind of looked like I caught him in the corner of the hull. I think I might have racked him and then he caught on fire. I was surprised but yet humored.

:bush:



Prosqtor #42 Posted Dec 31 2013 - 20:17

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View Postweesh, on Oct 01 2013 - 19:41, said:

KV-1s has a TC-warping level of power.
Heck, the KV-1s has a tier-warping level of power.
I have fun when I run mine, but if I run 3+ games in a row, I start to feel guilty about it.
Now to tackle the "logic"
1) "its not OP, its just a tank that people aren't used to dealing with": If that were true, why does everyone pussy foot around them?
2) "the tank is a lighter": I rarely catch fire, and have never done so from the front. Auto fire extinguishers also limit the impact of fire now-a-days
3) "it has limited armor and large silhouette": This tank side-scrapes well, and has a low profile for what it is. Not sure where that came from.
4) "less armor than the KV-1": yes, lets compare armor to the best in tier, see that it is less, and call it bad.
5) "terrible bloom accuracy and aim time, which make it useless at range": so we are just ignoring the fact that it is brutal at midrange? The accuracy buff helped this tank more than most, and while it is out of place as a sniper, it can make shots now.
I would be happy to let it keep its gun but for one thing:
This is brutal against beginners.
This game has a very high barrier to entry, and new players have to get through the rough 3rd and 4th tiers before the game opens up. Clearly, a good player can deal with +2 tiers at this level, but it is not healthy for the game to have this level of power across from newbies in tier 4 tanks.

Very nice.  Excellent points.

  What kills me about this discussion every time is how people work from their opinions when there is objective evidence out there (see Noobmeter and vbaddict) which demonstrates quite nicely that the KV-1S is ridiculous in the hands of a good player.   If you added 200 hp to it and put it in tier VII, it would still be a good tank.  Just too good for the armor it faces in VI, much less Vs and IVs.



Jehosafat #43 Posted Dec 31 2013 - 21:52

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I have to admit I am kind of torn on this tank. For one yes I am a user of it and of course it's predecessor the KV-1. I also have the IS so I know how this tank runs fairly well compared to my KV-1S. I have to say I don't find it terribly OP as there are a few heavies at the 5-6 tier range that can one shot lower tier tanks. Of course it does depend on what you are shooting, where you shoot them and RNG at the time. The 1S poses a threat to higher tier tanks depending on what it faces and from what vantage point. I have faced a Black Prince in my 1S before and killed him because frankly I don't think he knew how to use his tank and maybe because he feared the reputation this tank has. Admittedly I have held a few choke points before when I knew I would have been overrun had I been the enemy knowing what my tank can and cannot pen consistently. I don't think the 1S is OP because of the gun. It really is more the speed with all upgrades that does it. 

 

Let me explain why I say this before you balk. There are many tanks that have high tier guns on them lower and higher similar to the 1S as far as scope. Whether it be alpha, pen, dpm or a combination of the three. What really makes this tank feared is how quickly it can bring it's terrifying power to bear then escape if need be. If the speed was toned down a bit I think it would draw it more in line with what it should be. Either that or let it keep the speed and drop the top gun. However with the weaker armor this would make it an easy kill a lot more often for higher tier tanks as they would know they could outrace it in a slugfest which rightly they probably should be able to. I am not a fan honestly of the easy kill though it is a part of warfare in reality.  It seems the point of going up in tiers. However I think it is more a problem with MM than anything to be quite honest. As much as seal clubbers would hate it I feel once all upgrades are purchased this tank should not see lower than it's own tier. I don't feel it should always have to be bottom tier but let's be honest it is scary to see one roll around a corner on the field of battle.

 

Whoops just realized I'm on my wifes account she never got too far in the game.


Edited by Jehosafat, Dec 31 2013 - 21:53.


lordelamin #44 Posted Jan 01 2014 - 01:49

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Just for grins, I ran this tank for a few days with the 85mm gun. Was very funny watching guys who knew the tank well dodging the gun on my tank not realizing till late that it was my 85 slapping gold on them every 4.8 seconds! Not so much fun in tier VIII games though. There is still talk of changing the tank, or replacing it, but I think if the gave it the same gun as the T 150,(107mm), then I think that's just fine.

ValveGod #45 Posted Jan 01 2014 - 02:05

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KV-1S compared to a vk3601's 88?  Well that poor 88 only has 132 pen.  Although, KV-1S isn't the only other high alpha tank at the tier when there's the KV-2 and ARL 44's 105... 300 damage is still pretty good for the tier.

Jimbru #46 Posted Jan 01 2014 - 19:59

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KV-1S is not OP. I kill way too many KV-1S for them to be OP. Tips, most of which apply to any enemy tank...

 

- If you're lower tier than the KV-1S, stay away from their gun and don't engage alone. A Tier 4-5 wolfpack is perfectly capable of taking out a KV-1S with good play.

- The 122mm, like most of the bigger Russian and Chinese guns, is lethal in peekaboom brawls, but inaccurate at longer ranges. Dictate the range, and make them come to you.

- Watch the gun angle of the KV-1S. If you can see the gun barrel in red outline when you target the KV-1S, it's not pointed at you. If you DON'T see the gun in red outline, take cover!

- Use the long reload of the KV-1S to avoid its alpha. When the KV-1S shoots, that's your cue to strike and take cover before they reload. This applies to any slow-reload tank, really.

- Don't waste time and ammo shooting directly at strong spots. The KV-1S is not exceptionally armored for a Tier 6 heavy, but its hull front and turret front are pretty bouncy, so don't waste ammo on front shots if you're lower tier. In fact, if you are looking at the turret front, the big alpha is looking at YOU.


Edited by Jimbru, Jan 01 2014 - 20:30.


PattoN243 #47 Posted Jan 01 2014 - 23:53

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I can care less the KV1s has the 122mm. My issue is the mobility should be nerfed if you're going to be carrying around such a high alpha gun at tier 6. The fact is this thing moves like a medium almost which is BS. I think the top speed should be like 37kph and the HP/ton ratio should be reduced a bit. I'll never play a KV1s because I don't think it takes much skill to play IMO. I'll stay with my U.S. and German heavies because I enjoy them and still do.



Jefftiffy #48 Posted Jan 02 2014 - 05:16

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View Postmongoosejake, on Sep 10 2013 - 22:04, said:

Just as an observation... Most players that defend the KV-1S just so happen to use it primarily.
Just as an example: You are defending the KV-1S and as a player you've played Soviet tanks 92% of your battles, with that majority of that 92% being in heavies (41% of all of your battles), with the KV-1S, IS and IS-3 leading the way. Of course you'll defend it, lol.
The same arguments were used initially by the users of 105mm howitzers before they got slightly downgraded. Still happened.
Use the 122 on the KV-1S while you can, and enjoy it. It will get changed soon.

The KV 1S isnt that powerful. I have never played (Yes I'm on the IS 3) I got the IS when KV3 was T6. The KV 1S has alpha and thats about it. Kill it while it reloads or force a sustained fight. Alpha tanks love to play peek-a-boom! because it gives them time to reload between shots. Don't let them, that's the biggest mistake you can make because they trade DPM for Alpha. Also, the KV-1S is a mobile explosion in a can/matchbox. Can't tell you how many of these I see ammo racked and set on fire.


Edited by Jefftiffy, Jan 02 2014 - 05:17.


Rufustb #49 Posted Jan 02 2014 - 20:36

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Perception is everything.  The player base views it as OP, right or wrong, as is evident by all the games I have with 2-3 KV-1S in them.  Most of them bad players who try to snipe, or fire one shot and die.

 

Same thing is true of the Hellcat.  How many games do you have with 2-3 Hellcats?  Or 2 platooned baddie Hellcats?



theexploder123 #50 Posted Jan 08 2014 - 06:55

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It's not OP,but it can one shot tanks at tier 4 and below:trollface: which can be very raging:angry:,but it has no armor and there's a weakspot in the front of the tank and is visible:glasses: When you shoot its back,it can be easily set on fire,its range sucks for a tier 6,122mm costs 1,025 credits per shell:confused:,it also had horrible accuracy and aim time soo...in conclusion,ITS NOT OP

 



DeadlyAsians #51 Posted Jan 09 2014 - 04:44

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View PostPanzerGrenadier1, on Sep 10 2013 - 18:56, said:

It's OP. It can one shot tanks ONE TIER BELOW IT.

A Fv 183 can one shot tier 10's with a high roll Hesh... so nerf that? My ltractor can ammo rack a rhm? Nerf that? Lets just nerf everything!!!

 

O yea good read: http://ftr.wot-news....fake/#more-7180

 

We should stick the bl-9 on the kv-1s ;) 



vonluckner #52 Posted Jan 09 2014 - 10:40

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KV-1s is definitely one of the best tier 6 tanks, if not the best. It's a fantastic tank and I love playing mine too (and killing them), but don't be blind to the truth.

 

Alpha is logically better than DPM which is why the KV-1s is the best. That it gets beaten in a completely isolated 1v1 by a 36.01 is almost entirely irrelevant and illogical because the game is 15v15, not a 1v1, and tanks with high alpha are better in group scenarios because a high burst team eliminates more tanks faster in the initial engagement, gaining a collective DPM and shots to kill advantage that is almost always permanent.

 

You cannot logic your way out of the KV-1s being OP by claiming it has poor DPM or bad weak spots when it has such a combination of mobility, traverse rates, and firepower. It has a very low skill floor that inflates stats at just about every level above [bot], and you have to be quite terrible to do badly with it. That's why it's being changed.

 

 

Spoiler


Pariah333 #53 Posted Jan 09 2014 - 10:58

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I like fighting against the kv1s, it's as if they are full of 100 proof vodka and matches. 

ShadowDancer27 #54 Posted Jan 11 2014 - 05:35

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What is the word on when they will split the Kv1S?  I have it unlocked and want to have one in the garage when they do for the tank split garage space and 2-fer.

Jefftiffy #55 Posted Jan 11 2014 - 06:13

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View PostShadowDancer27, on Jan 10 2014 - 23:35, said:

What is the word on when they will split the Kv1S?  I have it unlocked and want to have one in the garage when they do for the tank split garage space and 2-fer.

It isn't getting split. The KV-1S is a single tank. The KV-1 and KV-2 were originally the KV but on the field they were classified as 2 different tanks, thus they were split.

 

Playing lower tier tanks i can see the complaints being made. The KV-1S is a bit powerful, but it doesn't need a major nerf. If anything just take 20-30 damage off its alpha on the 122 so it doesn't one shot T5s as consistently. This bring its alpha from 390 to 370 or 360. Still very good alphas, but it would lead to T5 meds being able to handle the KV-1S instead of being 1 shotted.


Edited by Jefftiffy, Jan 11 2014 - 18:57.


xXFreak1407Xx #56 Posted Feb 26 2014 - 05:56

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In response to those people who say the KV-1S is being defended by players who play Soviets primarily, hear input from someone who plays all lines. Started with Soviet sure, but I definitely know what it's like to be pitted up against one. Almost any tank tier in tier can take out the KV-1S, if they play it smart. Victims of the 1S' gun have every right to be angry at its alpha, but it is very balanced in terms of the tank itself. Tier IV's can penetrate it's armor, same goes to say for tier V's, that's for sure. It is mobile, but easy to target track. The silhouette is MASSIVE and has a reload that will get it killed if it is alone. All I can say is play it smart and don't put yourself in a position where it can shoot you. I know, kind of hard to do sometimes, but it can be done.

HB_Landric #57 Posted Feb 26 2014 - 09:44

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There is a pretty simple solution to this issue, nerf alpha on the 1S to 340 and pen to 165.  Leave the upgraded gun on the IS at 390/175.  This keeps the 1S from always one-shotting tier 4 tanks and makes the top 122 on the IS a real improvement rather than just a ROF buff.  All other stats on the 1S could be left the same.  It would still be a strong tank with its current character, but less raw power as compared to other tier sixes.

FlorbFnarb #58 Posted Feb 27 2014 - 00:53

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View PostProsqtor, on Dec 31 2013 - 14:17, said:

Very nice.  Excellent points.

  What kills me about this discussion every time is how people work from their opinions when there is objective evidence out there (see Noobmeter and vbaddict) which demonstrates quite nicely that the KV-1S is ridiculous in the hands of a good player.   If you added 200 hp to it and put it in tier VII, it would still be a good tank.  Just too good for the armor it faces in VI, much less Vs and IVs.

 

Give it 200 HP and it would be good in Tier 7?  Then you're basically arguing that the IS, with superior armor, HP and DPM is OP at Tier 7.



FlorbFnarb #59 Posted Feb 27 2014 - 00:55

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View PostHB_Landric, on Feb 26 2014 - 03:44, said:

There is a pretty simple solution to this issue, nerf alpha on the 1S to 340 and pen to 165. Leave the upgraded gun on the IS at 390/175. This keeps the 1S from always one-shotting tier 4 tanks and makes the top 122 on the IS a real improvement rather than just a ROF buff. All other stats on the 1S could be left the same. It would still be a strong tank with its current character, but less raw power as compared to other tier sixes.

 

It needs no nerfs at all.  I can school a KV-1S in any Tier 6 tank I own.



HB_Landric #60 Posted Feb 27 2014 - 06:08

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View PostFlorbFnarb, on Feb 26 2014 - 17:55, said:

 

It needs no nerfs at all.  I can school a KV-1S in any Tier 6 tank I own.

 

I don't disagree, but the change I suggested is one I can live with if a nerf is a foregone conclusion.







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