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The logical argument to whining about the KV-1S being OP

KV-1S NOT_OP

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SMBakerESQ #61 Posted Mar 04 2014 - 06:45

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This is the KV-1S expected win rate ( the dotted line) vs it's actual win rate.  As you can see, it improves the win rate of everyone who drives, by a considerable amount.  It is clearly OP.

 



SMBakerESQ #62 Posted Mar 04 2014 - 06:47

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As a side note, I am working my way towards one now.  Why not play the same tank that everyone else does?

HB_Landric #63 Posted Mar 05 2014 - 11:26

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View PostSMBakerESQ, on Mar 03 2014 - 23:45, said:

This is the KV-1S expected win rate ( the dotted line) vs it's actual win rate.  As you can see, it improves the win rate of everyone who drives, by a considerable amount.  It is clearly OP.

 

 

Not for me.  My overall win rate is 51%.  My win rate in the KV-1S is 48%.  Part of that is it was my first tier 6 heavy and I had no idea what I was doing.  Part of that is playing mostly solo random battles, but most of it is that its simply too fragile for my play style.  I do much better in the T-150, KV-2, and M6.  I do slightly better in the ARL44.  



Ziptar #64 Posted Mar 05 2014 - 14:01

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Not OP... Yes a great big gun but its got a slow ROF, is not very accurate, and can bounce if not aimed well. It's got paper armor for a heavy for its tier. 

 

The KV-1S is fun to play but its not OP, my win rate in it is 51%. I one shot them from the front in my KV-2 all the time.



SMBakerESQ #65 Posted Mar 05 2014 - 16:57

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From Noobmeter, numbers don't lie.  http://www.noobmeter.com/tankStats/na

 

It is the most played tank at the tier, almost as much as the next 5 tanks combined.  People are playing it for a reason, maybe it just looks good.  It has the highest WR, the highest OP rating of all tanks at that tier. It achieves the highest WR while the players playing it have the 5th highest WR out of 8, the biggest gap of all 8 tanks on the list. 

 

However, there is this disclaimer about Noobmeter :

 

~~Vehicle OP value is a calculated rating, based on winrate achieved in the vehicle and to what degree that winrate is above or below player winrate in other vehicle during this period.


It was created because vehicle winrate per se doesn't tell the full story, as, for example, most newly introduced vehicles are initially played by good players and thus achieve higher winrates than they later will.


This report is based on the data in NoobMeter database, and therefore is not representative for all WoT users, as NoobMeter users are on average, above average. It should, however, be representative for NoobMeter users (that means you).

 

I completely understand that people have their opinions.  That's fine.  But the statistical evidence is overwhelming that the KV-1S is OP, not to the extent of the Hellcat, but then few tanks are. 

 

I would draw the conclusion that if you are not winning at close to the rates suggested, you are playing the tank in a manner that does not maximize its strengths and minimize its weaknesses.  I don't have one, I am working up that line now, but if I wasn't winning at the rates suggested I would draw that conclusion about myself and figure out what I was doing wrong.



lordelamin #66 Posted Mar 06 2014 - 11:44

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Just sold mine, I also have the T150. W.R for KV1S=45%. WR for T150= 52%. The T150 fits my play style better. So not everyone dose better in the KV1S.

FlorbFnarb #67 Posted Mar 07 2014 - 04:04

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View PostSMBakerESQ, on Mar 05 2014 - 10:57, said:

From Noobmeter, numbers don't lie.  http://www.noobmeter.com/tankStats/na

 

It is the most played tank at the tier, almost as much as the next 5 tanks combined.  People are playing it for a reason, maybe it just looks good.  It has the highest WR, the highest OP rating of all tanks at that tier. It achieves the highest WR while the players playing it have the 5th highest WR out of 8, the biggest gap of all 8 tanks on the list. 

 

However, there is this disclaimer about Noobmeter :

 

~~Vehicle OP value is a calculated rating, based on winrate achieved in the vehicle and to what degree that winrate is above or below player winrate in other vehicle during this period.


It was created because vehicle winrate per se doesn't tell the full story, as, for example, most newly introduced vehicles are initially played by good players and thus achieve higher winrates than they later will.


This report is based on the data in NoobMeter database, and therefore is not representative for all WoT users, as NoobMeter users are on average, above average. It should, however, be representative for NoobMeter users (that means you).

 

I completely understand that people have their opinions.  That's fine.  But the statistical evidence is overwhelming that the KV-1S is OP, not to the extent of the Hellcat, but then few tanks are. 

 

I would draw the conclusion that if you are not winning at close to the rates suggested, you are playing the tank in a manner that does not maximize its strengths and minimize its weaknesses.  I don't have one, I am working up that line now, but if I wasn't winning at the rates suggested I would draw that conclusion about myself and figure out what I was doing wrong.

 

I draw the conclusion that the people that have problems fighting the KV-1S are the ones that have never driven one, and are largely clueless about its huge limitations.



vonluckner #68 Posted Mar 10 2014 - 15:28

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View PostFlorbFnarb, on Mar 07 2014 - 04:04, said:

 

I draw the conclusion that the people that have problems fighting the KV-1S are the ones that have never driven one, and are largely clueless about its huge limitations.

 

I don't have trouble fighting the KV-1s on an individual level. That doesn't mean they aren't OP.

 

The high mobility in terms of both top speed and traverse rates, combined with the high alpha at a tier that often puts them against tanks that they can one-shot makes it substantially more capable than other tier 6 heavy tanks. The combination is so good that even though the VK.36.01 is better in almost every single way except alpha... it still cannot manage the same global win rate.

 

The KV-1s is OP because there is little to no nuance to actually do well in it. You drive into the fight and one shot tier 5 TDs and tier 4 anythings on cooldown and produce a permanent DPM advantage over the enemy team. The tank doesn't even suffer in high tier games (in fact, it's probably one of the best bottom tier tanks). If I wanted to pad stats at tier 6, I would take the KV-1s. Absolutely no question or doubt about that decision, in spite of the supposed "huge limitations".

 

If you applied Occam's Razor to tanks, the KV-1s would be your solution.

 

I mean seriously, how can you defend this:

 

http://www.wotreplay...onluckner-kv-1s



FlorbFnarb #69 Posted Mar 10 2014 - 17:14

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I've managed higher winrates in other tanks.  It's an excellent tank but nothing out of line.  I find them fairly easy to zap; people tend to drive them stupidly.

MalikCarr #70 Posted Mar 15 2014 - 12:13

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KV-1S made a lot more sense way back when the KV-3 was a T6, so you had options - the slower heavy with lots of armor or the faster heavy with less armor. WG, in their infinite wisdom, decided to make the KV-3 fast too and bump it to T7, where it's now basically a somewhat more ungainly IS with a much better armored turret - good job, dorks. The T6 replacement, T-150, is not nearly as good, but the KV-1S is still about the same way it used to be. This is why it seems to be so good at T6, the Soviet companion design is so... average.

 

What I don't understand is why the KV-1S has a higher top speed than the IS and turns almost as well despite the fact that it has less engine power and an older-style suspension. If it handled more like a faster KV-1, the great advantage of the 122mm gun at T6 are reduced since it's not as easy to bulldoze someone from a flanking attack or around cover.

 

With that being the case, people whining about the OPness of the tank are focusing on the same stupid argument about how "oh no the huge Russian gun one-shots lower-tier tanks" while dismissing the [edited]reload time, accuracy, and really questionable penetration rolls. Also, higher-tier tanks picking on lower-tier ones is not news. Which KV-1S finds out very quickly in a T8 battle when every gun on the other team can pen it from any angle and it spends so much time waiting for the gun reticle to zoom in before firing that it's shot to crapbefore it gets to shoot. High risk, high reward.



RECON_RANGER #71 Posted Mar 20 2014 - 18:26

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Kv1S is definelty not OP anymore than the T18, Hetzer, KV1, Russian TDs, the Rummy or other tanks with high power guns that can one shot lower tier tanks (I had a rummy one shot my IS!!!! That's OP!).  WOTs has to be very careful not to nerf all the "fun"  tanks because people whine they r OP.  I have most of these tanks because i love high alpha tanks that can one shot lower tiers because they r really fun.  This is a game and i play to have fun.   I recently grinded the Panther as part of the E50 promotion and I hated that tank and immediately sold it after getting the Panther II because the Panther was no fun at all to play with the high pen but low alpha gun, large size and lack of speed.  It was boring and tedious to play.  The reason the KV1S and HellCat are played so much is because they r so fun!!!!  Fast tanks r very popular.  My favorite tank in the entire game is the PZIIIA.  Its super fast, has a decent gun and decent armor and no scout MM.  Before u say its seal clubbing, i bet half my games are tier 5.  Being a tier three light in a tier five game is not seal clubbing.  Also, many people are playing them heavily in anticipation of a nerf (like me).  If WOTs came out and said no nerf to the KV1S for one year I would not be playing it as much.

Abattage55 #72 Posted Mar 20 2014 - 21:18

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The KV-1S is OP. Deserving of a nerf? Depends on how they do it. I do agree that it is a fun tank but doesn't mean it can't be toned down some. The issue with it starts with the 122 mm gun. It is essentially the exact same gun on the IS and KV-3 a tier above and is essentially the same as the stock gun as the tier 9 Russian heavies. Focusing on the tier 7 tanks though, which hold up ok against tier 9s, effectively means a KV-1S can preform similarly. Now then, we have a tank with a gun that holds up to tier 9 shooting at tanks that are tier 5 (which would still face the IS and KV-3) but much worse the tier 4 tanks.

 

Comparing to the KV-2 which also has a massive gun. The KV-2 suffers greatly from mobility, has a pretty tall outline, and a long reload. KV-1S has a slightly lesser gun in terms of alpha, moves much faster than the KV-2, and a smaller profile. Now I do not know how bouncy the KV-2's armor is but I do know the KV-1S will bounce a good amount of shots, enough to where I tend to get 1 or 2 in  a battle. Also knowing it can bounce other KV-1S shots, means it easily handles up to at least 175 mm of pen which isn't bad for something that is said to have no armor.



Angry_Ray #73 Posted Mar 20 2014 - 21:54

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KV-1S, T18, Hellcat, Rhm, WT auf IV, WTF100... all I would consider to be OP...some more than others. I consider an OP tank not to be something that excels over the competition, but something that players can do well in no matter the skill level. The Hellcat and RHM line can take some serious practice, but the T18 and KV-1S? How could you NOT call them OP? I wouldn't call them a serious issue to the game at all, it's nice to have good tanks that are good for their tier... but it gets annoying when some tanks that have been overnerfbatted in the past are completely ignored while certain tanks remain OP. *cough* M48 Patton *cough hack cough cough*.

Anlushac11 #74 Posted Mar 21 2014 - 18:27

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View PostKroshtovich, on Sep 23 2013 - 22:00, said:

Everyone keeps saying we should get rid of the 122 and get the 100mm,i thought about it and it would balance the guns (very well balanced) but the tank itself would be underpowered,low HP pool+paper thin armor+mediocer gun= :ohmy:


 Oh so you mean it would be like a German tank?



sgtops23 #75 Posted Mar 21 2014 - 20:30

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Hai!

Ceemack #76 Posted Mar 21 2014 - 22:57

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Hmm...My T18 could one-shot a bunch of tanks one tier below it.  So could my M4 with the 105, if I hit them right. 

 

And I don't recall ever feeling "overpowered" in my KV1S.  It's a powerful gun, sure, but it's hampered by a long reload time and a long aim time.  You'd basically make yourself a target waiting to take a shot, and then you were helpless for about 15 seconds while you reloaded.  Combine that with paper-thin armor, and you have to be really good and really careful to survive very long--especially since the fact that you could sometimes one-shot other tanks didn't mean that you would one-shot the tank that was aiming at you. 

 

Too many people whine about this being overpowered, or that being overpowered.  First it's artillery, then it's the KV1S, then it's...

 

Every tank with a particular strength has at least one (and usually more) weakness.  If it's causing you a problem, learn how to fight it. 



FlorbFnarb #77 Posted Mar 23 2014 - 14:02

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View PostAbattage55, on Mar 20 2014 - 16:18, said:

The KV-1S is OP. Deserving of a nerf? Depends on how they do it. I do agree that it is a fun tank but doesn't mean it can't be toned down some. The issue with it starts with the 122 mm gun. It is essentially the exact same gun on the IS and KV-3 a tier above and is essentially the same as the stock gun as the tier 9 Russian heavies. Focusing on the tier 7 tanks though, which hold up ok against tier 9s, effectively means a KV-1S can preform similarly. Now then, we have a tank with a gun that holds up to tier 9 shooting at tanks that are tier 5 (which would still face the IS and KV-3) but much worse the tier 4 tanks.

 

Comparing to the KV-2 which also has a massive gun. The KV-2 suffers greatly from mobility, has a pretty tall outline, and a long reload. KV-1S has a slightly lesser gun in terms of alpha, moves much faster than the KV-2, and a smaller profile. Now I do not know how bouncy the KV-2's armor is but I do know the KV-1S will bounce a good amount of shots, enough to where I tend to get 1 or 2 in  a battle. Also knowing it can bounce other KV-1S shots, means it easily handles up to at least 175 mm of pen which isn't bad for something that is said to have no armor.

 

It does not "easily handle 175mm of pen".  That's just nonsense.  I can consistently pen a KV-1S with far less pen.



FlorbFnarb #78 Posted Mar 23 2014 - 14:03

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View PostAnlushac11, on Mar 21 2014 - 13:27, said:


 Oh so you mean it would be like a German tank?

 

What German tank?



DirtD0G #79 Posted Mar 23 2014 - 14:13

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The 1S just has a scary gun wrapped up in a really usable platform. Like most tanks it still relies on the driver to put it places and make decisions. This is not WTE100 broken OP, but it is a fearsome heavy hitter that has a fear factor causing indecision. Why people retreat after a lone KV-1S has fired at them, I will never know.

Johnny_Mars #80 Posted Mar 23 2014 - 15:24

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View PostDirtD0G, on Mar 23 2014 - 09:13, said:

The 1S just has a scary gun wrapped up in a really usable platform. Like most tanks it still relies on the driver to put it places and make decisions. This is not WTE100 broken OP, but it is a fearsome heavy hitter that has a fear factor causing indecision. Why people retreat after a lone KV-1S has fired at them, I will never know.

 

I agree. Like some other tanks, the KV-1S greatly benefits from common, bad gameplay. My KV-1S was taken apart by a competent Hellcat driver yesterday after I made a terrible mistake, but it's shocking how infrequently that happens.







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