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The_Chieftain #1 Posted Sep 18 2013 - 22:55

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In the ‘characteristics’ window on your tank, towards the bottom, is a statistic called ‘View Range.’ This is the maximum distance that your tank can spot an enemy. If your view range is longer than that of the opposing vehicle, there may be a window wherein you can see him, but he cannot see you. By being stationary or using camouflage and/or concealment, you can further reduce the opposition’s effective view range against you. In extremis, this means that you can repeatedly shoot at an enemy and the only indication he might have as to where you are is the red ‘you’re being hit from this direction’ indicator.
Should you find yourself on the receiving end of such fire, you must make a quick decision. Either find cover, or charge in the direction of the incoming fire in the hope that you survive long enough to spot your antagonist. Either choice is better than just sitting still in the hope that you will eventually divine the enemy’s location.
The detailed version of this is available on the Wiki, but this will get you started.
The maximum range at which you can spot an enemy is 500m. As few vehicles actually have a spotting range of that distance, it usually requires that the vehicle be equipped with additional characteristics such as enhanced optics before you can do so. As a general rule, whatever the ‘view range’ is under the characteristics of your vehicle should be considered the maximum practical view range at which you can spot an enemy. Usually, open-topped or heavy vehicles will have larger view ranges, either due to the ease of looking out of them or the fact that heavies tended to get better optics. Bear in mind, however, that this is a case of spotting under ideal conditions, such as a large vehicle moving and shooting in the open. Such ideal conditions rarely present themselves, and you can expect your enemy to attempt to minimize their exposure.
The simplest way of minimizing susceptibility to being spotted is to hide, stationary. There are plenty of bushes scattered around the World of Tanks battlefield, and they provide a camouflage bonus. Hiding just behind a bush can reduce the enemy’s effective view range by up to 60%. Other attributes can be combined on top of this, such as the use of a camo net or training crewmen in the camouflage secondary skill. Of course, shooting is going to make you somewhat more visible, but only somewhat, and the effect is but temporary. It is possible for vehicles to 'disappear' in open view. Game mechanic.
Vehicle characteristics will of themselves also have an effect. There is a (hidden) modifier for every vehicle. As a result, it is much easier for a small vehicle such as a StuG to hide than something the size of a small apartment building (i.e. Maus). This modifier is always in effect, so all other things being equal, a given enemy will always be able to spot a Maus before he spots the StuG. This modifier usually also takes into account vehicle class: Tank destroyers, due to their doctrinal role (and additional crew training) of ambushing targets, for example, tend to get a higher modifier than tanks.
It doesn’t stop there, however. If you work in hunter-killer teams, you can engage targets much further away than your own spotting range. This is where the radios come in: Just under the ‘View Range’ characteristic is one for ‘Radio Range.’ This particular attribute is easily modifiable, and you can usually upgrade the radio on your vehicle to increase it. Sometimes upgrading a turret will increase your view range, not always. The radio range basically creates a ‘circle of communication’ around your vehicle. If your circle overlaps with the circle of another vehicle, then you may be able to see enemy vehicles which have been spotted by that other vehicle, up to a maximum of 700m. If equipped with an accurate gun, this can be devastating. For example, StuG III has a view range of only 350m, but the 75mm/L70 cannon is accurate and lethal at very long ranges. By using a spotter, the StuG, which can be hard to find at the best of times, can be killing targets half-way across the map. Even if the unfortunate victim attempts to charge in the direction that the rounds are coming from, he is unlikely to close the distance sufficiently to spot the StuG before dying. A cagey spotting vehicle may never fire at all, thus reducing his own vulnerability to being spotted, whilst the long-distance shooter does the heavy work. Note that if you ‘spot’ for another vehicle to engage, you will split the experience points gained from engaging that target with the player doing the shooting.
Radios are all-important for artillery pieces and scouts. There’s little point in scouts detecting targets if they can’t ‘tell anyone’ about them, and artillery can’t use their long gun range if nobody can reach them on the radio.

Scarchie #2 Posted Oct 26 2013 - 19:34

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So I have a question.  In your article, it says that the maximum spotting range is 500m.  However, on the wiki it states that it is impossible to spot a tank outside of 445m?  I understand how the view range is calculated into the spotting equation, but I was wondering if it is possible to light a target in the range between 445 and 500m?

2127Faerthereaper #3 Posted Oct 26 2013 - 20:14

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You can not spot something that is more than 445, but the veiw range bonus decreases bush bonuses and lets you spot earlier.

NomaeTheJester #4 Posted Oct 26 2013 - 20:23

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My understanding is that the maximum spotting range is 445, while the maximum view range is 500. Basically any view range over 445 won't actually increase your maximum view range, but you will spot targets from farther away (say 350 instead of 390) because the additional view range will negate some of your enemies' effective camo. You may spot a firing, moving Maus at 445 meters every time, but you will never spot it at 446 meters.

hippielettuce #5 Posted Oct 26 2013 - 21:23

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View range: you spot your teammate and an enemy engaged and from the mini map they look pretty close together.(assume they are face to face slugging it out). Looking thru your gun, All you see is the 3bar tag of their tanks indicating they both are heavies.

spotting range: while continuing to look thru your gun, you drive closer to the action and wa-la, the outline of both tanks come into view.

So, view range, you can see the tank looking thru the gun, but your not close enough to aim at the tank until you get to spotting range.

Scarchie #6 Posted Oct 26 2013 - 23:06

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Thanks.  That was my understanding.  I was just confused by the chief's statement of "The maximum range at which you can spot an enemy is 500m", just after the wiki reference.  Maybe it needs to be changed?

PANZER612 #7 Posted Oct 27 2013 - 01:18

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Well, my thinking is this: your maximum view range is how far away you can SEE an enemy. Your spotting range is how far away you can spot an enemy tank. (i.e, if an enemy is behind a bush, you can only spot them from a pre-determined distance, 445m.) so you can't
spot an enemy tank ALL the way across the map. But If you have someone spotting the enemy already (a scout), you can only actually see the enemy if they are inside you maximum view range.

General_von_Falkenhayn #8 Posted Oct 27 2013 - 01:54

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Do not be fooled by numbers alone, comrades!

In Soviet Russia, glorious Soviet vehicle harder to spot than fascist vehicle, even if glorious Soviet vehicle--defender of Motherland--within "view range" of Hitlerist invader-vehicle.  Pride of Urkutsk Factory Development Board, Glorious Soviet Object 263, laugh invisibly at bloodthirsty Fritz-Weapon "Jagdpanzer E-100," even within 300m.  All honor to Glorious People's Socialist Engineering for making Soviet vehicle better concealed by shrub and bush!  

Well-balanced and sterling example of proletariat design, Object 704, easily hide behind bush in Prokhorovka, even when in so-called "view range" of evil fascist tank. But merciless fascist beast "Jagdtiger" have much hard time hiding behind same bush.  Glorious Soviet Object 704 see fascist, but fascist not see Defender of Motherland!

In Soviet Russia, Great Patriotic Soviet Bush provide better concealment to Soviet vehicle than fascist and capitalist vehicle!  Great Patriotic Soviet Bush not neutral in battle against international capital!

All honor to Glorious Soviet Spotting System !  Forward, comrades!

ket101 #9 Posted Oct 27 2013 - 04:42

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The Russians had the bright idea of making their TD's smaller than the German ones.  I don't suppose that's a factor in there somewhere?  Particularly when it comes to hiding all the spotting points of a vehicle behind a bush?

Xendariel #10 Posted Oct 27 2013 - 07:27

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First off, just going to leave the wiki page on visibility here: http://wiki.worldoft...nics#Visibility

From what I understand of this, there is no actual limit to your vehicle's view range - the better the view range, the better your spotting range will be. Spotting range, however, is limited to 445 meters.

For a brief example I'm going to simplify/bend the game mechanics to make the math a little easier.

Let's say we have two tanks: A has 450 view range, and B has 500 view range. An enemy tank approaching them has 10% camouflage, which acts against their view range, so while tank A might think 'I have over 445m view, I should be able to see anything at max range', in effect the enemy will only be spotted at 405 meters (450 x .10 = 45 ; 450 - 45 = 405).

Tank B, on the other hand, has gone further over the 445 maximum. Against the 10% camo of the enemy his spotting range is 450 (500 x .10 = 50 ; 500 - 50 = 450). Since 445m is the limit, however, the enemy will be spotted at 445m.

Essentially, the higher you can put your view range, the closer to 445m you will spot your targets, barring cover / brush etc.

kriptkpr #11 Posted Oct 27 2013 - 08:36

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View PostThe_Chieftain, on Sep 18 2013 - 22:55, said:

In the ‘characteristics’ window on your tank, towards the bottom, is a statistic called ‘View Range.’ This is the maximum distance that your tank can spot an enemy. If your view range is longer than that of the opposing vehicle, there may be a window wherein you can see him, but he cannot see you. By being stationary or using camouflage and/or concealment, you can further reduce the opposition’s effective view range against you. In extremis, this means that you can repeatedly shoot at an enemy and the only indication he might have as to where you are is the red ‘you’re being hit from this direction’ indicator.
Should you find yourself on the receiving end of such fire, you must make a quick decision. Either find cover, or charge in the direction of the incoming fire in the hope that you survive long enough to spot your antagonist. Either choice is better than just sitting still in the hope that you will eventually divine the enemy’s location.
The detailed version of this is available on the Wiki, but this will get you started.
The maximum range at which you can spot an enemy is 500m. As few vehicles actually have a spotting range of that distance, it usually requires that the vehicle be equipped with additional characteristics such as enhanced optics before you can do so. As a general rule, whatever the ‘view range’ is under the characteristics of your vehicle should be considered the maximum practical view range at which you can spot an enemy. Usually, open-topped or heavy vehicles will have larger view ranges, either due to the ease of looking out of them or the fact that heavies tended to get better optics. Bear in mind, however, that this is a case of spotting under ideal conditions, such as a large vehicle moving and shooting in the open. Such ideal conditions rarely present themselves, and you can expect your enemy to attempt to minimize their exposure.
The simplest way of minimizing susceptibility to being spotted is to hide, stationary. There are plenty of bushes scattered around the World of Tanks battlefield, and they provide a camouflage bonus. Hiding just behind a bush can reduce the enemy’s effective view range by up to 60%. Other attributes can be combined on top of this, such as the use of a camo net or training crewmen in the camouflage secondary skill. Of course, shooting is going to make you somewhat more visible, but only somewhat, and the effect is but temporary. It is possible for vehicles to 'disappear' in open view. Game mechanic.
Vehicle characteristics will of themselves also have an effect. There is a (hidden) modifier for every vehicle. As a result, it is much easier for a small vehicle such as a StuG to hide than something the size of a small apartment building (i.e. Maus). This modifier is always in effect, so all other things being equal, a given enemy will always be able to spot a Maus before he spots the StuG. This modifier usually also takes into account vehicle class: Tank destroyers, due to their doctrinal role (and additional crew training) of ambushing targets, for example, tend to get a higher modifier than tanks.
It doesn’t stop there, however. If you work in hunter-killer teams, you can engage targets much further away than your own spotting range. This is where the radios come in: Just under the ‘View Range’ characteristic is one for ‘Radio Range.’ This particular attribute is easily modifiable, and you can usually upgrade the radio on your vehicle to increase it. Sometimes upgrading a turret will increase your view range, not always. The radio range basically creates a ‘circle of communication’ around your vehicle. If your circle overlaps with the circle of another vehicle, then you may be able to see enemy vehicles which have been spotted by that other vehicle, up to a maximum of 700m. If equipped with an accurate gun, this can be devastating. For example, StuG III has a view range of only 350m, but the 75mm/L70 cannon is accurate and lethal at very long ranges. By using a spotter, the StuG, which can be hard to find at the best of times, can be killing targets half-way across the map. Even if the unfortunate victim attempts to charge in the direction that the rounds are coming from, he is unlikely to close the distance sufficiently to spot the StuG before dying. A cagey spotting vehicle may never fire at all, thus reducing his own vulnerability to being spotted, whilst the long-distance shooter does the heavy work. Note that if you ‘spot’ for another vehicle to engage, you will split the experience points gained from engaging that target with the player doing the shooting.
Radios are all-important for artillery pieces and scouts. There’s little point in scouts detecting targets if they can’t ‘tell anyone’ about them, and artillery can’t use their long gun range if nobody can reach them on the radio.
I have a couple of problems with this, first is the method of enacting the cammo effect, since it is a flash ran effect those with high end computers will always have an advantage over those with not so good comp's, the 'cammo'/spotting effect needs to be reworked so ALL players are equal - and i know the haters will say some crap but its a fact and i have tested it on 5 diff comps with 5 diff setups and the best comp ALWAYS 'spotted/revealed' tanks before the others.
Second is regardless of the cammo rating you have or the vehicle if you are moving your 'cammo' becomes 99% inefective as anyone looking at said tank can see it move, IF it stops then you know where it is and should remain 'visible' for no less than 10 seconds.
Third and most impotantly is the particular sentance "It is possible for vehicles to 'disappear' in open view." Not only do they do that they can move halfway across an open area before becoming visible.......I DO NOT CARE WHAT DILUDED TWISTED DRUG INDUCED REALM OF REALITY YOU LIVE IN THIS IN PHYSICALLY AND LITTERALLY IMPOSSIBLE!!!!! ( unless on the rare occasion said tank goes out of view range AND no other tank is spottin it ) This is the biggest and most bogus aspect of this game, I dont care if you are in the smallest tank in the game, the fastest, or the ridicously overcammoed russian and german td's if you are in the open and especially if you are in the open and moving, dissapearing in any sence is complete B.S.!!! Take ANY tank of any kind or year, move in an open area and see if you dissapear, it wont happen. I am so sick and tired of watching tanks that are moving at less than 300m drive past a bush and because it has a uber high cammo rating, go 'poof' and dissapear. It simply cannot happen regardless that this game is not a 'sim'.
There are other issues with the above quote and 'cammo' but for the purpose of preserving my fingers I'll not go into them.
So again tanks going poof in open areas equals complete and utter crap. Plain and simple....

The_Chieftain #12 Posted Oct 27 2013 - 08:47

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I realise  it is a controversial game mechanic,  but I am  not going to ignore it. People had better realise that at this time,  and the foreseeable future, if they are going to play this game that had better understand that things will vanish where their " common sense"  is telling them it shouldn't.  Complaining about it is not a survival technique in this game.

_Berserk #13 Posted Oct 27 2013 - 11:03

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can someone explain me; maximum view range written in vehicle descriptions are the ones with equipment support or without equipment ??

Huskydo #14 Posted Oct 27 2013 - 11:50

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this is a intresting topic. as there is a few factors that are at play in the game.  There is some confusion sometimes in what is happening and what you are seeing in game and what you are not seeing.

view range can be confused with your maximum view SIGHT even under the influence of an allies radio. ( how many times have you seen enemies on the mini map but you can't see them in your tank on the battlefield) this is because the game basically draws a SQUARE of distance, anything outside this square cannot be seen in battle ( but can be seen on the minimap threw others radios). So imagine you are in the centre of that square now if we go straight to the  north edge of our square this is normally 500metres. Yet your sight range to the diagonial is more than 500 metres more like 700 metres. Hence you could possibly see a enemy from your static postion under a spotter at 500 or 700 from the same place just depending where they are appearing in that square. bear in mind arty can see all on minimap and this seems to not apply to them.

hope that makes sense as does seem a bit confusing :)

Azyur #15 Posted Oct 27 2013 - 15:53

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View PostThe_Chieftain, on Sep 18 2013 - 22:55, said:

In the ‘characteristics’ window on your tank, towards the bottom, is a statistic called ‘View Range.’

Chieftain,

Thanks for  posting these series of tutorials. We, here on the NA servers, have experienced an influx of new, unaffiliated, players. Tutorials, such as this, help to teach fundamentals that many, public, players may never learn. The fact that you weave lighthearted humor and solid techniques into these tutorials makes them informative and entertaining. Someone, on the focus fire thread, suggested the dev team find a way to link these in the client. I don't know if that's possible, but I certainly would encourage the Forum admins to perma-link  all of your game tutorials, because the advice is timeless and the influx of new players is constant. Thanks again for this community service.

Azyur #16 Posted Oct 27 2013 - 15:57

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View PostGeneral_von_Nuben, on Oct 27 2013 - 01:54, said:

Do not be fooled by numbers alone, comrades!

In Soviet Russia, glorious Soviet vehicle harder to spot than fascist vehicle, even if glorious Soviet vehicle--defender of Motherland--within "view range" of Hitlerist invader-vehicle.  Pride of Urkutsk Factory Development Board, Glorious Soviet Object 263, laugh invisibly at bloodthirsty Fritz-Weapon "Jagdpanzer E-100," even within 300m.  All honor to Glorious People's Socialist Engineering for making Soviet vehicle better concealed by shrub and bush!  

Well-balanced and sterling example of proletariat design, Object 704, easily hide behind bush in Prokhorovka, even when in so-called "view range" of evil fascist tank. But merciless fascist beast "Jagdtiger" have much hard time hiding behind same bush.  Glorious Soviet Object 704 see fascist, but fascist not see Defender of Motherland!

In Soviet Russia, Great Patriotic Soviet Bush provide better concealment to Soviet vehicle than fascist and capitalist vehicle!  Great Patriotic Soviet Bush not neutral in battle against international capital!

All honor to Glorious Soviet Spotting System ™!  Forward, comrades!

LMAO...love the humorous 'casm. +1...bump!

Duckhardt #17 Posted Oct 27 2013 - 18:02

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not make much sense Once all players disappear from the battlefield           

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JagdNoob #18 Posted Oct 27 2013 - 18:29

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View PostThe_Chieftain, on Oct 27 2013 - 08:47, said:

I realise  it is a controversial game mechanic,  but I am  not going to ignore it. People had better realise that at this time,  and the foreseeable future, if they are going to play this game that had better understand that things will vanish where their " common sense"  is telling them it shouldn't.  Complaining about it is not a survival technique in this game.
   So it's this way because it's this way and complaining about it will do nothing to increase the chance of Wargaming ever making it more realistic.  Makes sense to me...

Hirumaru #19 Posted Oct 27 2013 - 19:09

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View PostThe_Chieftain, on Oct 27 2013 - 08:47, said:

I realise  it is a controversial game mechanic,  but I am  not going to ignore it. People had better realise that at this time,  and the foreseeable future, if they are going to play this game that had better understand that things will vanish where their " common sense"  is telling them it shouldn't.  Complaining about it is not a survival technique in this game.

The main problem isn't the "common sense" complaint of an invisible Maus in the middle of a field, but when tanks should be revealed under the conditions determined by game mechanics yet still don't. Flaws in the algorithms and inefficiencies in the entire design can make for some broken and frustrating gameplay at times.

The only thing worse that not knowing the mechanics is knowing how they are supposed to work and being forced to deal with the fact that they might not work at all. For example, you SHOULD be able to see a charging IS-7 coming at you once it clears 445m but you MIGHT NOT see it until 390m due to the delays built into the spotting system (to reduce server load, which is only necessary since BigWorld is still such a crappy game engine). Tack on the ("legitimate") effect of tanks disappearing in the middle of an open field because "lol camo" being calculated in a way contradictory to common sense and you can see why this is such a controversial issue.

And then there is the Chieftain *cough* giving somewhat bogus information on how spotting actually works. My god, we had to endure for a couple years to worm that figure of "445m maximum spotting range" out of Wargaming. The least you could do is represent it accurately. :P

dhread #20 Posted Oct 28 2013 - 04:33

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Thank you Chieftain for publishing these articles as it is informative for all players.
There are always min-max'ers in the mix, and rules lawyers.
The point of the game is to have fun.

Whine: I want my T-50-2 back!




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