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Manic_Gun_Depression #41 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 16:55

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Excellent thread.  I'll admit, I'm just a casual player who slums it in pubs (married, employed, have a life, etc), but I do like to mix it up, including playing arty quite frequently.  So, it warms my heart to see a level-handed treatment of just how difficult it is to truly be "overpowered" as so many accuse arty of being...

I echo the statements of others (Gruffard, Masuhara, davegbp, VenteRuma etc.) who have augmented Chieftain's post:
  • When playing with other arty, try to set up in different firing positions to take advantage of different firing angles.  Doing so can take away a lot of hiding places from those lurking assassins.
  • As VenteRuma said, when playing non-arty, always be cognizant of where your friendly arty is positioned, an what that means for their trajectory (this really is not that hard!).  Use that awareness to bait enemies (especially TDs and heavies) around that corner and into a big fat HE sandwich... The corollary of this, of course, is don't be a moron and return the favor to the other team by chasing them around the big rock only to get hammered, yourself.
  • Remind well-intentioned teammates that "defending the arty" does NOT mean parking on top of them...in fact, a defensive screen a couple hundred yards ahead is WAY better.  Otherwise, by the time your "defender" can spot that damned ELC or T71, it has already spotted you and will either 1) kill you, or 2) the inbound shell surely will...
  • Above all, as an arty, do NOT whine about "defend me!"... Embrace the ethic that it is YOUR responsibility as arty to always monitor the minimap, watch the flow of the battle, and shift to a better position any time your defensive line gets weak... Think ahead, and when that last TD between you and the advancing enemy thrust starts taking fire, it's probably time to move halfway across the map....


Clickenhof #42 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 16:59

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Sorry I heard the sound of crying from this room.

:harp:

Malystryx #43 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 17:06

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Thanks for the article!  What I don't understand is why people hate artillery, and think they are controversial.  In all historical ( and modern) conflicts that have had the use of gun powder, artillery has been an essential part of the battle dynamic.  In almost every division in the US Military, and my guess any other military, they have DivArty (divisional artillery) for support, and they have trained people on the front lines spotting for the artillery so that they are accurate. Armored Div, Mechanized Div, and Infantry Div all have their DivArty units. Of course I hate getting wasted by artillery, just like anyone else, but they belong in the game since they are an accurate portrayal of armored military combat.  Thanks again for posting the article, great info!

vancouver_boy #44 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 17:43

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I never played wot prior to the nerf so I don't know what that was like before. But I enjoy playing arty today as it requires some strategy to keep myself safe and able to hit targets. Some of the strategies described here are good at lower tiers, but as I progress the increases to load times coupled with generally poor accuracy make many of them ineffective. My T8 arty unit takes a full minute to select a target, aim and reload, and since I can only hit 1/3 time on perfectly aimed shots, lobbing shots in the dark are a total waste and any time spent moving around the map means I'm completely useless and vulnerable.

At T8 I can hit the entire map from anywhere(as long as terrain isn't in the way), so as long as I have a good position there is no point in moving around as it just delays when I can start firing, I may as well wait for another target. If I find myself in imminent danger then running means certain death, so I'm better off waiting and preparing to shoot the scout in the face or if it's a heavy at least I get a bit of damage before I go. The corners of the map are still some of the best spots to hide because they are rarely checked (In random matches anyway) and difficult to reach unless the game is mostly lost anyway. Once in awhile someone clears the corners early and finishes me off, but on most maps these still give better angles and are usually well guarded early in the match.

If changes to arty were in the works, I would trade off some damage and/or (especially) range, in exchange for better accuracy, load times, and mobility so that I can support my team better. One of the arty units I had the most fun playing had extremely limited range, which forced me to move around with groups of units so I could still hit targets and stay safe. I could hit targets that no other unit couldt and was able to help my team punch through difficult areas, but with my rear flank exposed I had to be paying attention and moving around constantly to avoid being one-shotted.

ishootyouface #45 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 17:58

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YES! now the t57's will stop shooting rocks and friendlies from point blank

Ekidutu #46 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 18:01

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On lower tiers the guns have short ranges, use the long reload time to move

AppyRose #47 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 18:03

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Thanks for article. It has some great tips, and us a good read for those that think arty is without skill. Thank you also for recognizing, us Ladies play also, yes the Marines teach the girls to shoot too.

As a veteran arty player, face huggers when I'm marking a target are a huge problem. Deciding if I fire or not into melee, involves not only considering their survival, but also depends on how bad the enemy needs to die, for the overall game. I've made more than a few surgical shots, to take out the enemy and save my team mate that is face hugging, but sometimes ring takes over and I hit the wrong tank. This takes valuable time, I could be using for reloading. It would be so much easier if they would just back off a bit when I mark the target.

I play arty, about 50% of the time, there are 34 artys in my garage, out of 112 tanks. I play everything, but due to low fps from a 3 year old laptop, arty is much easier to play for me. Stats are off for arty to start with and my computer does not help. Just last night a "elite" jerk, from a clan ( no I won't call him or his clan out), called me out with "Arty, so simple even a 47% scrub can play". Those are the clowns that are the biggest problems in this game not us arty. This game is for all. I hate the 8.6 nerf, but I have adapted, arty is not going away.

Semper Fi
AppyRose/Samantha

Mikelsson #48 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 18:12

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Well, arty is part of the game. i play arty because the need of them for tank companies and clan wars but i understand the angry of "1 shoot killed enemies" as much as i hate been sniped in the hatch from some guy on the other side of the map while i am focused in a fight with other players.

The arty nerf was just and story to scare newbie players (and it works, the game was a lot more fun for a few months), i can make 10 direct hits in 10 shoots with any arty with an 100% crew, you dont need any skills beyond a little pacience to wait for targets fighting with your team.

I keep saying that the arty playstyle needs to be changed, for not been and supersniper but a bombardment support. They should have clips of 4-5 shoots to bombard zones with very low accuracy. Thas can be a lot of fun for the arty player enjoing the show. and is a lot less angry for a player killed for the rain of fire because is part his fault for been detected and part luck, no just an unfair system. That also avoid that you can be sniped when in face to face fight whitout the risk for the enemy of taking some people of their own team.

The only issue is the adjust in the stats for the arty players, but that solves creating a system of stats only for artillerie. after all they are a totally diferent playstyle in the game.

Nutsack_kicker #49 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 18:17

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View PostThe_Chieftain, on Sep 19 2013 - 00:12, said:

Posted Image
In the picture above the oval of green dots indicates the impact zone within which the shell is liable to impact. Remember, the shell does not impact straight down, hence the elongated shape. As a result, if  the round was going to impact with the ground just behind the MkIV, it quite likely would actually impact the turret. If the MkIV does not move in the next second and a half or so, it is quite liable to receive a 150mm round, and, of course, it has no way of knowing it. This seems a little harsh at first but the big picture says otherwise. Note the picture below.
Posted Image
This is the same MkIV being targeted some ten seconds earlier.  You will note that the impact zone is huge. The round is far more likely to land anywhere except on the target vehicle. Not to say it won’t, as lucky shots do happen, but the artillery gunner pulling the trigger with this sight picture would be an exercise of optimism over expectation. Every time the SPG moves its hull, the probable impact zone expands to maximum. As most artillery pieces tend to have very narrow arcs of fire, this generally means that the gunner needs to reset his (or her!) aim almost every time it acquires a new target or his current target moves a significant lateral distance relative to the SPG. As a result, SPGs tend to have much lower rates of fire than the stats would lead one to expect. Not only do they tend to have a long reload time (over 30 seconds for some of the larger pieces), but they also need to spend significant time (ten seconds or more) just aiming. As a result, artillerymen love stationary targets.
When you do feel the need to be stationary for anything more than about fifteen seconds (not that you can’t get hit in less!), you still have options. Hide, or use cover.  Hiding needs little explanation: Use concealment to prevent enemy scouts or vehicles from detecting you.
Cover takes advantage of the fact that, though artillery does come down from above, it does not do so vertically. See the example below.
Posted Image
You will note that the green ‘impact zone’ is on the rock formation to the right of the tank. This tank is fully shielded from the artillery at its current point of aim. Of course, the gunner can aim a little towards the front of the target, and likely hit or damage  the tank by near miss if the tank stays still for much longer, but then the tank can also move to hug the cover a little more tightly.
So, as artillery, what can you do to counter?
This ought to be a pretty familiar view to any artilleryman who’s played on the Malinovka map.
Posted Image
The MkVI is taking cover, confident in the knowledge that artillery, in their usual firing positions, cannot touch him. The solution as a gunner is simple. Move: You are self-propelled artillery for a reason. A good team in Malinovka can clear the way to relocate to a better firing position.
Posted Image
Many tankers have had their feeling of invulnerability shattered by being heavily damaged or destroyed by artillery that they ‘knew’ shouldn’t have been able to hit them. Recall what was said about stationary targets: This Tiger driver stayed in the same defensive location so long that the artillery was able to drive half-way across the map to get the correct angle.
The other thing to note about moving as an arty-driver is that enemy scouts will usually go first to where the artillery players tend to set up near the deployment zone. Remember, as artillery, you are a priority target. The best way to avoid having enemy artillery hit you when the scout sees you is to prevent the scout from finding you in the first place. When found, your survival chances are very low indeed.
Personal observations for arty players: This is a way of doing things, not [/I]the[/I] way of doing things.
1) Don't hang out in the spawn zone. If you're in a slow arty, you'll be shooting less frequently as you're moving, but it is worth it to go somewhere else. Moving well away from where you started means that enemy scouts will be hunting for a while before they find you.
2) When conducting 1), as long as the ballistic arc allows for it, you should be as close to the front line for all arties as you feel safe. Especially if you're in something with a wide arc of fire. This is for four reasons.
a) Shorter time of flight. Especially useful for hitting those peek-a-boom or evading targets.
b) Much smaller area covered by the impact circle/oval, meaning far more chance of a hit.
c) You are probably going to open up new angles of fire on targets (especially across the map) who think they're safe from the usual artillery haunts.
d) If an enemy scout gets through the front lines, not only are you not in the first place they look, you are also much closer to help from your friends.
3) Try to get an 'angle'. Don't just drive from spawn to the front line, move laterally to obtain new angles on targets which otherwise would be obscured.
4) Choose your targets wisely. Sometimes it is better to take a weak gun out of the fight than do major damage to a heavy. You can affect one of multiple engagements, you are a force multiplier. Always keep an eye out for an intelligent scout on your side who is pinging a request for fire. Knock out the obstacle for him, and he may go marauding.
5) Arty is far better at cracking defensive positions than at helping with defense. I usually believe in supporting the attack anyway, as I believe victory goes to the side with initiative, and the more help the initiative gets, the more successful the team is.
6) If you see a useful target cowering behind cover in an attempt to be "Arty safe", consider moving a little to open an angle to hit him. Don't worry if you lose the spot, just aim where he was last seen. Such players tend to be stationary, and are likely to still be there, take the blind shot.
7) If you have the credits to burn, consider randomly lobbing shots at likely locations if there are no spotted targets. You get no extra XP for hit rate or bringing ammo home. Even if a target appears the second after you pull the trigger, usually by the time your aiming circle has shrunk on the new target, your round is loaded again anyway.
8) Minimap. Minimap. Minimap. Chances are you have a little more time for Situational Awareness than most of your team. It will help you choose targets, and you can call pieces of information to your colleagues who may be too busy to play close attention.
9) This is related to #2. If you find yourself in a fight for your survival against a scout or medium, 3 time out of 4 you will lose and die. Usually it's not worth the attempt. Instead, find the nearest green guy, and drive at him as fast as possible like a panicked schoolgirl while screaming for help. He may not come back to help you, but If you bring the scout to him, he could scratch your back. You are much more likely to make it, especially in a slow arty, if you're closer to your friends to begin with.
  another tip I find helpful is with auto loader arty, don't use our whole clip to try and kill a tank. If he is engaged with a teammate, soften him up to a 1shot kill and move to the next target. You will get the majority of the XP for the damage and with this
strategy, you may get confederate a lot of the time .

Nutsack_kicker #50 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 18:25

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View PostValan, on Oct 13 2013 - 08:41, said:

Not every artillery gun arc is the same, which will end up effecting how and where ones aims.   For example the British Conqueror Gun Carriage is quite distinctive: less of an oval, and more of a circle shaped aiming target.  Why? Gun fire arc can be more steeply angled, relative to its peers at Tier 10.  (It somewhat similar to the pre-nerfed SU-5 with the big gun's fire arc.)


Posted Image

Source of chart.
Where is the batchat arc?

Nutsack_kicker #51 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 18:31

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It was better in earlier patches, but alas the latest update ruined it. It is now the big brother ugly duckling to the marder. Poor marder, I used to call it murder because I used to average 7 kills a battle. I had the crews of both the m41 and the marder in the high 70's of third skill and sold them both because they are just awful now. It hurt to press thg sell button

laddpadd #52 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 18:36

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DEATH TO SCUMBAGS!!!!! I feast on you in my amx 1390  :playing:

Eleven_Hotel #53 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 19:01

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Another nice article by The_Chieftain. And yes I know these tricks and a few extras.

And to the scout above^^^, I have played scouts an hunted artillery, but I don't dis them.

AppyRose #54 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 19:01

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View Postladdpadd, on Oct 13 2013 - 18:36, said:

DEATH TO SCUMBAGS!!!!! I feast on you in my amx 1390
Laddpadd, congrats, you made my preferred arty haters target list, I can and do hit fast moving targets.Appy/Samantha

Robert_Skywalker #55 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 19:08

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Buff the arty! Especially US! Reload is way too long and aim circle is way too bid. Generally speaking, everything but German and British arty aren't good. HP was nerfed way too much, RoF, Accuracy, and Aim time as well! Only specific arty pieces were OP. Now almost everything is UP. 45 seconds should be the max, for T10, and that way too long. A T5 should not have a 30 second reload, more like a 15. Playing arty used to be fun, now all you do is fire once, miss, wait another minute, and miss again. Who wants to wait that long, and then miss?

Robert_Skywalker #56 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 19:15

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View Postvancouver_boy, on Oct 13 2013 - 17:43, said:

I never played wot prior to the nerf so I don't know what that was like before. But I enjoy playing arty today as it requires some strategy to keep myself safe and able to hit targets. Some of the strategies described here are good at lower tiers, but as I progress the increases to load times coupled with generally poor accuracy make many of them ineffective. My T8 arty unit takes a full minute to select a target, aim and reload, and since I can only hit 1/3 time on perfectly aimed shots, lobbing shots in the dark are a total waste and any time spent moving around the map means I'm completely useless and vulnerable.

At T8 I can hit the entire map from anywhere(as long as terrain isn't in the way), so as long as I have a good position there is no point in moving around as it just delays when I can start firing, I may as well wait for another target. If I find myself in imminent danger then running means certain death, so I'm better off waiting and preparing to shoot the scout in the face or if it's a heavy at least I get a bit of damage before I go. The corners of the map are still some of the best spots to hide because they are rarely checked (In random matches anyway) and difficult to reach unless the game is mostly lost anyway. Once in awhile someone clears the corners early and finishes me off, but on most maps these still give better angles and are usually well guarded early in the match.

If changes to arty were in the works, I would trade off some damage and/or (especially) range, in exchange for better accuracy, load times, and mobility so that I can support my team better. One of the arty units I had the most fun playing had extremely limited range, which forced me to move around with groups of units so I could still hit targets and stay safe. I could hit targets that no other unit couldt and was able to help my team punch through difficult areas, but with my rear flank exposed I had to be paying attention and moving around constantly to avoid being one-shotted.

Prior to 8.6 arty was even more fun. It required strategy, as you mentioned, but you didn't miss 2/3 of your shots, or wait a full minute to be aimed and loaded. I used to play at least a few battles with my arty every time I logged on, but now I just look at it and shake my head. My friend, as he plays on a laptop, loved playing arty prior the nerf. Arty has never been simple to play, at least any more than it is now, but it was much more fun prior to 8.6.

Look_its_Rain #57 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 19:25

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Arty is still a fail mechanic to this day. Regardless if they are OP or not.

WhitefangTank #58 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 19:27

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One thing i noticed with arty, same as what the others are saying, arty should have great accuracy and greater penetration and damage, in this game arty are just canon fooder, it can kill 1-2 but thats about it,  you'll be lucky with more kills but, arty don't have the correct fire power it should rightfully have, yes your weak in close combat but you should be great in long range battle isn't that what arty are for?

Petro1979 #59 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 19:39

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nerf arty... then nerf it again. nothing more cowardly then fighting someone who can't fight back. i play tanks to fight the tanks i see, not so someone pleasuring themselves in the back of the map can kill them for me.

Thanatos69 #60 Posted Oct 13 2013 - 19:52

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View Postke5wtj, on Oct 13 2013 - 13:58, said:

I have always been a fan of arty, and my stats prove it, I may not be some Clan wars top player, but i have fun. the Chieftain is right about arty moving with the lines, I've done that with great success before, a testament to that is a battle I had in my Hummel back in Sept. I'd say this was a fairly successful battle:

Victory!
Battle: Steppes 09/27/13 12:51:16
Vehicle: Hummel Experience received: 1,887 (x3 for the first victory each day)
Credits received: 45,573
Battle Achievements: Invader, Raider

All I did was move with the main push, staying a little behind the front lines, behind hills the entire time, till I got around to the cap and ended the battle leaving one left on the enemy team who was trying to hunt for me.

Basically, as an arty, you have to pay attention to situational awareness, and know when and where to go to be successful. And on the note of arty not shooting moving targets, that's BS, cause many times i've killed scouts, mediums, and heavies running full speed across the map by knowing approximately how far away the tank is, about how fast it's going, and in what general direction. Basically the same concepts a sniper has to use to hit a moving target, so no it's not cheating, though many have blamed me when I one-shot them on the run, the key was that they were lit long enough and they drove straight enough I predicted where they would be, and got the kill, fair and square.

Wow, how did you manage such a low exp trip?  Seems to me that you would have had a much better game, albeit with fewer medals, if you just got damage on target instead of brown nosing your team the whole match.  Especially on that map with the Hummel's new-found lack of horsepower being almost 1/2 of what it used to be and its overly long aim time you can't really keep moving across map like that without nerfing your damage potential by at least 50%.




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