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Platypusbill #21 Posted Oct 19 2013 - 22:25

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View PostThe_Chieftain, on Sep 20 2013 - 19:02, said:

If you have far too much time on your hands, it is possible to estimate the theoretical ‘sweet angle’ for your tank.

I have far too much time on my hands, apparently.

I even made graphs with a separate function for the side and the front, watching where the lines intersect to see the optimal angle and resultant effective protection  :great: .

Maus, for instance, maxes out at 280mm lower glacis/upper side hull armour (for AP).

chaos_21 #22 Posted Oct 19 2013 - 23:36

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Thanks for the tutorial, or refresher course for others. You should cover weak spots in frontal armor next.

MerlinV12 #23 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 00:08

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View PostIgnii, on Oct 19 2013 - 21:41, said:

How would you calculate the effective armor thickness of plates that are angled in two or more axes (e.g. the pike-nose on the is3 which is angled both back and to the sides)?

Work out the effective armour thickness caused by the angle in one axis. Then feed this effective value back into the equation with the angle from the other axis. The order will not matter, the result will be the same either way.

CombatCommandD #24 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 01:03

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So American tanks would be a good choice for this, to some degree, at least offensively speaking. Since the gun depression is better on the American tanks, that means getting onto the high ground and shooting down, you can maximize defense and offense. At least in theory.

In my personal opinion, the smartest thing to do is not to go for the hill everyone is going to run too. And when I say everyone, I mean EVERYONE! You only end up in a slug fest at close quarters making the point moot. So finding another hill, even if less desirable, is a good way to make the enemy work for a win.

Platypusbill #25 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 01:39

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View PostIgnii, on Oct 19 2013 - 21:41, said:

How would you calculate the effective armor thickness of plates that are angled in two or more axes (e.g. the pike-nose on the is3 which is angled both back and to the sides)?
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View PostMerlinV12, on Oct 20 2013 - 00:08, said:

Work out the effective armour thickness caused by the angle in one axis. Then feed this effective value back into the equation with the angle from the other axis. The order will not matter, the result will be the same either way.
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ArmourThickness / cos(cos-1(1 / (1 / cos(angle1)/ cos(angle2) ) ) - Normalisation)
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Normalisation being 5 for AP, 2 for APCR, and 0 for HE/HEAT/HESH- but with zero normalisation, the calculation can be made much simpler:
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ArmourThickness/ cos(angle1)/ cos(angle2)
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If that's too much math for you to handle, you can also use this calculator: http://www.panzerwor...rmor-calculator
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1. Plug in the two angles, any thickness other than zero will do (you don't need it yet)
2. Calculate
2. Copy the resulting compound angle into one of the fields
3. Add normalisation (the site uses the definition of 90 degrees being perfectly flat), insert this value into one of the angle fields
4. Ignore the second angle at this point because it's already merged.
5. Insert the thickness
6. Calculate
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If looking at HE/HEAT/HESH protection, just put in the two angles and thickness straight away.

Edited by Platypusbill, Nov 06 2013 - 01:21.


Tony93 #26 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 01:55

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Not to be a boner or anything but i feel as if angleing has become useless with everyone useing gold now at teir 10 now the only tank i can actually bonce shells in now is my IS-4 and even then its hard to cuz gold rounds have 400 pen....just saying

Poinciana #27 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 02:06

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View PostIgnii, on Oct 19 2013 - 22:05, said:

It's a trigonometric function. Just type "cos A degrees" into google or wolfram alpha, where A is the angle of the armor plate.

Thanks. I noticed that my TI calculator has a COS(COS-1) button and was able to replicate the math. First time I need to use it in more than 3 years.

HeadShot_fo_Rassia #28 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 03:50

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View Postlallau, on Oct 19 2013 - 18:17, said:

humm i feel so badass when i increase even more the slope in my jgpanther and become a rubber armor :p
you about some armor you say?)))

Eleven_Hotel #29 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 05:52

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Another good job Nick.

Azyur #30 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 07:40

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View PostSnrub_MC, on Oct 19 2013 - 21:13, said:

None of what you said makes learning about angling any less important. "pseudo-scientific, psycho-babble" wtf?

1)Doesn't matter how much armor changes or how often, angling to improve your armor is always better than not.

2)"coded weakspots" you make it sound like those are in at the whim of the Devs (some of it is but mostly they reflect RL weakspots).  The_Chieftain is teaching general WoT basics and focusing in on 1 specific topic each article.  You need to know how best to position every tank in the game as well as what their individual weakpoints are and how to hide them.

3)Obviously team work is important, but while you are concentrating your fire, maybe being in the right position to consistanly pen a tank is good? or not get damaged in the process?

I think you are just being argumentative, as you didn't refute anything I said. In fact, you actually suported my statements, while attempting to dress me down. Furthermore, you ignored, or failed to read, that I said the Chieftain's tutorial would enhance  basic WoT skills.

WoT reality is much simpler than the silly intellectualizing that some players engage in. Certainly, for the big boy game of Clan Wars, with higher overall team skill and more deliberate action, any and every assist can be critical. However, for the normal, public, game, including company battles, team work and  focusing dps is a much more important consideration. That was my point and it is, absolutely, a vaild one.

While "angling for a shot can be useful, it is more often the case that taking the shot presented is the better and more successful option. Again,  coded weakspots, regardless of the rationale behind them, are present on every vehicle in the game. Taking advantage of those areas with aimed shots is far more effective than angling for a shot  through a  less vulnerable area. This fact should be obvious to any experienced player and should not be argued against for the sake of a preening ego.

Oh, for the record, because of the influence of the RNG, there is no amount of angling which will grant a gun the ability to "constantly pen a tank", unless the gun were already  a massive overmatch for the target ; in which case, angling is redundant.  Again, I love reading the Chieftain's tutorials, but I would much rather see articles which teach the masses basic (WoT) game playing skills, like team work and focused fire.  After all, improving the skill sets of the average player can only make the game better than what we've seen of late.

hellotahu #31 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 09:25

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shhhhhhh don't tell everyone the secret of angling!!!!

cRommels #32 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 09:51

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Posted Image

Oh this good old example! dont you love it when you do this to IS-6 front plate or any other heavily sloped tank yet it still bounces as if there's no change at all. I guess the server needs some time to update the enemy hitbox orientation.

NutrientibusMeaGallus #33 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 09:54

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"You can eyeball the thickness of the glacis armour for yourself, but it’s somewhere just over 2”, let’s say 60mm. Doesn’t seem like much, until you realize that the armour is sloped at about 82 degrees from the vertical, making it equivalent to some 430mm of armour from a shell impacting from a trajectory parallel to the ground."

   What about when that round continues on with little to no deformation or energy dissipation and hits the turret/turret ring/gun above it? Why don't we ever see that realistic effect?

Ciel115 #34 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 10:03

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TLDR I'LL JUST BUY GOLD AMMO

militant83 #35 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 13:24

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View PostAzyur, on Oct 20 2013 - 07:40, said:

I think you are just being argumentative, as you didn't refute anything I said. In fact, you actually suported my statements, while attempting to dress me down. Furthermore, you ignored, or failed to read, that I said the Chieftain's tutorial would enhance  basic WoT skills.
WoT reality is much simpler than the silly intellectualizing that some players engage in. Certainly, for the big boy game of Clan Wars, with higher overall team skill and more deliberate action, any and every assist can be critical. However, for the normal, public, game, including company battles, team work and  focusing dps is a much more important consideration. That was my point and it is, absolutely, a vaild one.
While "angling for a shot can be useful, it is more often the case that taking the shot presented is the better and more successful option. Again,  coded weakspots, regardless of the rationale behind them, are present on every vehicle in the game. Taking advantage of those areas with aimed shots is far more effective than angling for a shot  through a  less vulnerable area. This fact should be obvious to any experienced player and should not be argued against for the sake of a preening ego.
Oh, for the record, because of the influence of the RNG, there is no amount of angling which will grant a gun the ability to "constantly pen a tank", unless the gun were already  a massive overmatch for the target ; in which case, angling is redundant.  Again, I love reading the Chieftain's tutorials, but I would much rather see articles which teach the masses basic (WoT) game playing skills, like team work and focused fire.  After all, improving the skill sets of the average player can only make the game better than what we've seen of late.
^^^This.  Everything in this is essentially a gem, whether you want to agree with it or not is up to you.  Obviously you should be angling when ever possible if your tank requires it, that's basic tanking 101 really, but using teamwork and focusing your fire are far more important frankly.  When it comes to pub matches its what drives most legitimate Clan players insane.  The inability of the vast majority of average players to have any comprehension of what it is to work with another tank beside them, regardless of whether they are platooned, share coms, etc....  With very little effort, it really is not that hard to somewhat read each other and have at minimal at least some cohesion in your actions, rather than: 1)SIMP'ing each other, 2)Boxing someone in, 3)Side scraping a teammate while they shoot, 4)Getting toasted taking a unnecessary shot, 5)impeding on a team mates camo, 6)the list goes on, and on.  Whether I'm platooned or solo(I solo plenty) I make the same effort to work with those around me, or if necessary, gain what advantage I can out of their mistakes.
This game really isn't that complicated, but a lot of people can't get out of their own way and make it so.  You want to be a better "Tanker".?.?  Develop a working(doesn't have to be vast, just workable) knowledge of the tanks you use as well as those you will face.  Pay attention and learn the maps: good terrain, bad terrain, where to make pushes, where not to.  Lastly, make an effort to work with the those around you rather than being a detriment to each other.  These things alone combined with just more time in game should make you better.  I enjoy these deeper looks into stuff like this as much as the next guy, but as far as the game goes they do little to greatly improve game play.  It would be nice if as much, if not more effort went towards teaching/demonstrating a lot of these in game basic and medium level (not talking high level clan) skills rather than delving into the numbers and #stats all the time.  I would bet you might see somewhat better game play, and hence less pubbie rage, but what would I or many others know about that...

View PostCiel115, on Oct 20 2013 - 10:03, said:

TLDR I'LL JUST BUY GOLD AMMO
Sadly, this is true.  Makes most of the armor in the game effectively useless.  Even a Maus/E100 properly angling can be penned fairly easily due to this.  Wish it wasn't that way, but it is.

amr5756 #36 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 16:04

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Mazimer #37 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 16:06

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View Postmilitant83, on Oct 20 2013 - 13:24, said:

^^^This.  Everything in this is essentially a gem, whether you want to agree with it or not is up to you.  Obviously you should be angling when ever possible if your tank requires it, that's basic tanking 101 really, but using teamwork and focusing your fire are far more important frankly.  When it comes to pub matches its what drives most legitimate Clan players insane.  The inability of the vast majority of average players to have any comprehension of what it is to work with another tank beside them, regardless of whether they are platooned, share coms, etc....  With very little effort, it really is not that hard to somewhat read each other and have at minimal at least some cohesion in your actions, rather than: 1)SIMP'ing each other, 2)Boxing someone in, 3)Side scraping a teammate while they shoot, 4)Getting toasted taking a unnecessary shot, 5)impeding on a team mates camo, 6)the list goes on, and on.  Whether I'm platooned or solo(I solo plenty) I make the same effort to work with those around me, or if necessary, gain what advantage I can out of their mistakes.
This game really isn't that complicated, but a lot of people can't get out of their own way and make it so.  You want to be a better "Tanker".?.?  Develop a working(doesn't have to be vast, just workable) knowledge of the tanks you use as well as those you will face.  Pay attention and learn the maps: good terrain, bad terrain, where to make pushes, where not to.  Lastly, make an effort to work with the those around you rather than being a detriment to each other.  These things alone combined with just more time in game should make you better.  I enjoy these deeper looks into stuff like this as much as the next guy, but as far as the game goes they do little to greatly improve game play.  It would be nice if as much, if not more effort went towards teaching/demonstrating a lot of these in game basic and medium level (not talking high level clan) skills rather than delving into the numbers and #stats all the time.  I would bet you might see somewhat better game play, and hence less pubbie rage, but what would I or many others know about that...

Sadly, this is true.  Makes most of the armor in the game effectively useless.  Even a Maus/E100 properly angling can be penned fairly easily due to this.  Wish it wasn't that way, but it is.
i often find myself in 1v>3 in my t54, i still come out victorious. mastering angling is OP. also, angled armor > thick armor

Platypusbill #38 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 16:21

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View PostcRommels, on Oct 20 2013 - 09:51, said:

Posted Image
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Oh this good old example! dont you love it when you do this to IS-6 front plate or any other heavily sloped tank yet it still bounces as if there's no change at all. I guess the server needs some time to update the enemy hitbox orientation.
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Doesn't happen to me. My Pershing laughs at the IS-6's glacis plate in facehug (10 degree depression drops it from 200 to 155 effective). I have yet to bounce a single time when doing this.
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View PostNutrientibusMeaGallus, on Oct 20 2013 - 09:54, said:

"You can eyeball the thickness of the glacis armour for yourself, but it’s somewhere just over 2”, let’s say 60mm. Doesn’t seem like much, until you realize that the armour is sloped at about 82 degrees from the vertical, making it equivalent to some 430mm of armour from a shell impacting from a trajectory parallel to the ground."
   What about when that round continues on with little to no deformation or energy dissipation and hits the turret/turret ring/gun above it? Why don't we ever see that realistic effect?
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It does happen, but it seems unreliable. Latest dev statement said AP/APCR lose 10% pen in the process.
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Here's an ancient pic demonstrating shot traps:
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http://wotarmory.fil...jpg?w=824&h=659
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I also remember an instance where a shell glanced my Sherman's roof and went into the turret cheek, and I once penned a Maus with the long 88 by deflecting a shot from the lower edge of the turret into the hull roof.

Edited by Platypusbill, Jul 13 2014 - 16:33.


IronyAngel #39 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 16:40

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Put yourself on a 20 degree slope to increase the slope of your armor.  Brilliant.  And with 7 degrees of gun depression you are now slightly better protected from an enemy that you can't shoot at.  Swell.

BlackForestPike #40 Posted Oct 20 2013 - 18:22

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Great article about armor sloping, and relative armor thickness. But the first T-34-85 picture brings up another problem. Yes, the front armor will not be penetrated, but will the shell hit the underside of the gun mantlet and probably take out vital areas.

Ooh. Now I want to know more about shot traps. I know the Panther Ausf G had the square chin turret just to solve the problem, because appearantly it was serious enough.




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