Jump to content


European tank discussion

European tanks discussion italian new tech tree tank tree Czech upcomming poland

  • Please log in to reply
1442 replies to this topic

Slakrrrrrr #781 Posted May 19 2014 - 16:00

    Major

  • Players
  • 22233 battles
  • 6,435
  • Member since:
    07-16-2011

View PostStrv74, on May 19 2014 - 07:37, said:

The L7 105 is not really a gun for a tier 8 medium, but I recognize what you are saying. This tank really is not much of a high tier medium, really like the Indien Panzer, but with British guns.

 

So: I would do: 

 

Panzer 58 Prototype B (90mm, 20 pounder A, 20 pounder B) Tier 8

Panzer 61 (20 Pounder B, L7 105)

Panzer 68GT (L7A3 with much improved turret armor on Grosser Turm, maybe un historically so, but it needs something for T10)

 

 

On page one, you have TDs until tier 9 or 8. Artillery could be used as T9 and 10, with the PanzerKanone 61 and PanzerKanone 68. The main difference being that the first one was on the Pz.61 chassis, without an autoloader. T10 has a 6 round drum loader.

 

 

 

Did the Pz.58 not use a 90mm or 20 Pdr? I've never heard of it using a 105mm L7 before.



Strv74 #782 Posted May 19 2014 - 16:16

    Captain

  • Players
  • 15925 battles
  • 1,520
  • [REALM] REALM
  • Member since:
    03-16-2014

View PostSlakrrrrrr, on May 19 2014 - 17:00, said:

Did the Pz.58 not use a 90mm or 20 Pdr? I've never heard of it using a 105mm L7 before.

14 were made. Prototype A with 90, Prototype B with 20 pounder, 12 with 105



Slakrrrrrr #783 Posted May 19 2014 - 16:57

    Major

  • Players
  • 22233 battles
  • 6,435
  • Member since:
    07-16-2011

View PostStrv74, on May 19 2014 - 08:16, said:

14 were made. Prototype A with 90, Prototype B with 20 pounder, 12 with 105

Then perhaps Pz.58 prototype at tier 8, Pz.58 at tier 9 and Pz.61 at tier 10?



Strv74 #784 Posted May 19 2014 - 17:33

    Captain

  • Players
  • 15925 battles
  • 1,520
  • [REALM] REALM
  • Member since:
    03-16-2014

View PostSlakrrrrrr, on May 19 2014 - 17:57, said:

Then perhaps Pz.58 prototype at tier 8, Pz.58 at tier 9 and Pz.61 at tier 10?

 

It appears that the articles that I am reading conflict. It is possible that the Panzer 58s were converted to 61 standard with the 105, like you said.

 

The Panzer 58 with the 105, in game terms, is a Panzer 61. A Panzer 68GT is better, as it can get better turret armor and later model of the L7 gun, as a Tier 10. The only thing in game terms in between the Panzer 61 and early 68s is the turret. (I would use the prototype Pz 68 2nd series with the then-experimental Grosser Turm).

 

I would now suggest:

Panzer 58 (the 90mm gun M3, 90mm gun M36, to 20 pounder A as top) as tier 8

Panzer 61 with 20 pounder A stock, 20 Pounder B middle and L7 as top as a tier 9.

Panzer 68, with the Gross Turm and L7A3 (As on the Leopard 1)as a tier 10.

 

The gun choices follow the what the Centurions use, aside from the 17 pounder stock (on the Centurion) we on the Panzer 58 get the historical 90mm instead)  This is balanced without power creep, and appropriate, I believe.

 

The Panzer 68's year, of course, worries me, but when you think about it, it is still based off the Panzer 58, and has very few upgrades over it, just a new gun and turret. 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Strv74, May 19 2014 - 17:55.


sp15 #785 Posted May 19 2014 - 18:05

    Captain

  • Players
  • 20 battles
  • 1,460
  • Member since:
    02-27-2012
Honestly i think that it would be best to have the high tier mediums like this KW30 > Pz58 > Pz61 that way we dont include anything thats outside the wot timeline (1970 is the limit) and we have a clear line of development. The one negative thing is that the tier 9 and 10 would be quite simmilar, but the Panzer 68 is outside the timeline (and is pretty much the same vehicle anyhow) so i really think this is the best way to do things.

Strv74 #786 Posted May 19 2014 - 18:17

    Captain

  • Players
  • 15925 battles
  • 1,520
  • [REALM] REALM
  • Member since:
    03-16-2014

View Postsp15, on May 19 2014 - 19:05, said:

Honestly i think that it would be best to have the high tier mediums like this KW30 > Pz58 > Pz61 that way we dont include anything thats outside the wot timeline (1970 is the limit) and we have a clear line of development. The one negative thing is that the tier 9 and 10 would be quite simmilar, but the Panzer 68 is outside the timeline (and is pretty much the same vehicle anyhow) so i really think this is the best way to do things.

 

Can you post some information on the KW30, i can't seem to find anything on it. 

 

I just realized, it is possible that the Pz61 will actually get the Gross Turm anyways, as otherwise the entire series will get no turret upgrades, and Wargaming would not like that. From what I can tell, it is just thicker, more sloped (soviet style) turret with the same 10 degrees of gun depression. This, along with the gun, would differentiate it enough from the tier 9 to be practical. 

 

I am, like you, afraid that the tier 10 will not be much better than the tier 9. I can't think of any other way to fix it. 

 

(Panzer 58 with tier 9 Turret (Tier 9)     Panzer 68 Turret (Would be mounted on Tier 10 Panzer 61)

                          

 

 

 

If you look at the full images here:

http://upload.wikime...8/Panzer_58.jpg

http://upload.wikime...anzer_68-88.JPG

 

The Tier 9 may be thinner, with only up to 120mm armor, but it has smaller weakspots than the tier 10, which while stronger and more rounded, but  also appears to have bigger weakpoints of cupolas. Also to note is the Muzzle brake on the T10, indicating a later L7 gun variation. That would give it the L7A3, in game terms.

 

Also, if interest is the G13 in the first picture, a potential tier 4 premium tank destroyer. It was used until 1973, and has a different gun than the Hetzer in the game.


Edited by Strv74, May 19 2014 - 18:29.


sp15 #787 Posted May 19 2014 - 18:21

    Captain

  • Players
  • 20 battles
  • 1,460
  • Member since:
    02-27-2012


Strv74 #788 Posted May 19 2014 - 19:36

    Captain

  • Players
  • 15925 battles
  • 1,520
  • [REALM] REALM
  • Member since:
    03-16-2014

View Postsp15, on May 19 2014 - 19:21, said:

 

Thank you very much. Seems interesting, another possible turret option.

 

Do you, by the way, agree with the PanzerKanone  61 and 68 ending the tank destroyer line at tier 9 and 10, I know that they are artillery. Is is probably better than nothing at all, as tier 10 is currently blank. You could condense the previous vehicles, which are all pretty much stretched out as far as they can go, and put more research options in each  by removing one of them. At tier 9, it would be a 155mm gun in a turret, tier 10 with the 155mm  and a 6 round autoloader (could be nerfed to 3/4 rounds). They should should play a lot like the Bat Chat 155s. Balance can be achieved on tier 9 like the 155 55 (less damage and penetration), and the 6 round autoloader at tier 10 is balanced compared to the the 58, just with a longer reload and soft stats. It would probably have the lowest alpha and damage of tier 10 arty (replacing the current holder, the 155 58). 

 

http://www.militaerf...e_13_19_58.html


Edited by Strv74, May 19 2014 - 23:47.


sp15 #789 Posted May 19 2014 - 21:12

    Captain

  • Players
  • 20 battles
  • 1,460
  • Member since:
    02-27-2012

i dont now that much about the Panzerkanone, but isnt that vehicle past the 1970 time limit?

anyhow im not sure about using them as TDs i personally dislike doing that with arty, but i guess it would be better to use them to make another european TD line possible than let them go to waste (if they are within the wot timeline)



Strv74 #790 Posted May 19 2014 - 21:33

    Captain

  • Players
  • 15925 battles
  • 1,520
  • [REALM] REALM
  • Member since:
    03-16-2014

View Postsp15, on May 19 2014 - 22:12, said:

i dont now that much about the Panzerkanone, but isnt that vehicle past the 1970 time limit?

anyhow im not sure about using them as TDs i personally dislike doing that with arty, but i guess it would be better to use them to make another european TD line possible than let them go to waste (if they are within the wot timeline)

I'm sorry, I might not have made it clear. The TDs would only go to tier 8. 9 and 10 would in fact be artillery and play like other artillery. The difference is they would complete the 2nd Swiss line.

 

You might have confused Foch 155 with Batchat 155.

 

Oh, and as far as year, Swiss nomenclature puts the year ahead. The purchase was approved by parliament in 1968, so they were designed before 1968, hense the name PanzerKanone 68. Then again, "service" started in 1972. They are, however, probably the only option for completing a second Swiss line.



Life_In_Black #791 Posted May 21 2014 - 01:18

    Major

  • Players
  • 26288 battles
  • 11,490
  • [KGS] KGS
  • Member since:
    10-29-2011

View Postsp15, on May 19 2014 - 13:05, said:

Honestly i think that it would be best to have the high tier mediums like this KW30 > Pz58 > Pz61 that way we dont include anything thats outside the wot timeline (1970 is the limit) and we have a clear line of development. The one negative thing is that the tier 9 and 10 would be quite simmilar, but the Panzer 68 is outside the timeline (and is pretty much the same vehicle anyhow) so i really think this is the best way to do things.

 

How would the Panzer 68 be outside of WoT's timeline when it predates the STB-1 in-game?



Strv74 #792 Posted May 21 2014 - 02:16

    Captain

  • Players
  • 15925 battles
  • 1,520
  • [REALM] REALM
  • Member since:
    03-16-2014

You are so right! The STB-1 is from late 1968. The Panzer 68 production run was already ordered in 1968, years ahead of the Type 74 (1974).

 

So, where does this leave us?

 

Medium Line

Tier 1: FT-17

Tier 2: R-35

Tier 3: Pzw.39

Tier 4: Scorpion 57mm

Tier 5:Scorpion 90mm

Tier 6: Pirate 90mm

Tier 7: KW30 

Tier 8: Panzer 58    

Tier 9: Panzer 61

Tier 10 Panzer 68GT

 

TD/Arty Line

Tier 4: G-13

Tier 5: Nahkampkanone 1

Tier 6: Nahkampkanone 2

Tier 7  HS30 90mm

Tier 8: KanoneJadpanzer MOWAG

Tier 9: MOWAG Gepard 

Tier 10: MOWAG Taifun

 

Tier5 Premium: Panzerhaubitze AMX 13

 

Tier 9: **Start of Arty** PanzerKanone 61

Tier 10: PanzerKanone 68

 

This line, of course, has issues. Bit it is a start. 

 

When you think about it, all the tier 10 has is: 

 

Better Track Traverse/Terrain Resistance (Wider Tracks),

Better Soft gun Stats (Stabilization)

Better Engine (More Power, less fire chance)

Better Turret Armor/Turret Traverse/View Range (Gross Turm)

 

Thats it. It could/should really have no gun upgrade or engine upgrade. Seems balanced. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Strv74, May 21 2014 - 04:31.


Life_In_Black #793 Posted May 21 2014 - 02:44

    Major

  • Players
  • 26288 battles
  • 11,490
  • [KGS] KGS
  • Member since:
    10-29-2011

View PostStrv74, on May 20 2014 - 21:16, said:

You are so right! The STB-1 is from late 1968. The Panzer 68 production run was already ordered in 1968, years ahead of the Type 74 (1974).

 

So, where does this leave us?

 

Medium Line

Tier 6: Pirate 90mm

Tier 7: HS30 90mm

Tier 8: Panzer 58     Tier 8 Premium KW 30

Tier 9: Panzer 61

Tier 10 Panzer 68GT

 

When you think about it, all the tier 10 has is: 

 

Better Track Traverse/Terrain Resistance (Wider Tracks),

Better Soft gun Stats (Stabilization)

Better Turret Armor/Turret Traverse/View Range (Gross Turm)

 

Thats it. It could/should really have no gun upgrade or engine upgrade. Seems balanced. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The STB-1 is actually from 1969. So yeah, the Panzer 68 definitely fits in the timeframe of WoT. As was pointed out, there wasn't much if any difference between the Panzer 58 and Panzer 61 other than the armament upgrade to the 105mm L7. So it makes more sense to combine those as the tier 9 medium. This makes the Panzer 68 the tier 10. For tier 8, I propose the KW 30 as it's actually different compared to the Panzer 58/Panzer 61, so it's a better inclusion in the tech tree than having three of almost the same tank. For the premium tier 8, one of the Panzer 58 prototypes (personally I want the 20pdr version, as the 90mm version was the one chosen for production) which would be much akin to something like the Leopard Prototype A with the 90mm being a premium tier 8. Alternately,  I'm sure there were other variations and such along the way to the KW 30 and Panzer 58, all it takes is someone to go digging through Swiss archives.



Strv74 #794 Posted May 21 2014 - 05:42

    Captain

  • Players
  • 15925 battles
  • 1,520
  • [REALM] REALM
  • Member since:
    03-16-2014

View PostLife_In_Black, on May 21 2014 - 03:44, said:

 

The STB-1 is actually from 1969. So yeah, the Panzer 68 definitely fits in the timeframe of WoT. As was pointed out, there wasn't much if any difference between the Panzer 58 and Panzer 61 other than the armament upgrade to the 105mm L7. So it makes more sense to combine those as the tier 9 medium. This makes the Panzer 68 the tier 10. For tier 8, I propose the KW 30 as it's actually different compared to the Panzer 58/Panzer 61, so it's a better inclusion in the tech tree than having three of almost the same tank. For the premium tier 8, one of the Panzer 58 prototypes (personally I want the 20pdr version, as the 90mm version was the one chosen for production) which would be much akin to something like the Leopard Prototype A with the 90mm being a premium tier 8. Alternately,  I'm sure there were other variations and such along the way to the KW 30 and Panzer 58, all it takes is someone to go digging through Swiss archives.

 

Would that be the 20 pounder type A or B barrel?

 

I am pretty sure that we can take out the arty, there is no need for it. But, we lack a tier 7 tank destroyer (Assuming no Panzer 51 light tank cop out) : HS30 could go there, with KW 30 taking the T7 medium slot.

 

the HS30 or KW 30 probably could, again, fit the bill, but then that would mean that the Panzer 58 would have to be tier 8,



Life_In_Black #795 Posted May 21 2014 - 06:11

    Major

  • Players
  • 26288 battles
  • 11,490
  • [KGS] KGS
  • Member since:
    10-29-2011

I would guess the A barrel, as the only pictures I've seen of it don't have any kind of fume extractor on the barrel. Really, information is a mess when it comes to the KW30 and the Panzer 58, 61, and 68. The only source I've come across is AFV Weapons Profile Issue 50: Swiss Battle Tanks which doesn't even mention the KW30. It says two prototypes for the Panzer 58, one with the Swiss 90mm, and the other with a British 20pdr. It then says that the 90mm was chosen for production for the Panzer 58, and that the 105mm L7 was seen as a better choice, so the new version with the 105mm L7 was called the Panzer 61. Other things list the Panzer 58 as having the 20pdr, while the KW30 was from 1958 and had two prototypes one with the 90mm and one with the 20pdr. So it's a huge mess as to what really went on.

 

As for a tier 7 TD for Switzerland, that's actually easy. The MOWAG prototype for the Kanonenjagdpanzer project, "Gepard":

 



sp15 #796 Posted May 21 2014 - 09:54

    Captain

  • Players
  • 20 battles
  • 1,460
  • Member since:
    02-27-2012

according to info from volketten the larger turret seem to be outside the timeline

 

Panzer 68 Prototype (~1967)

Panzer 68 Mk.I (1968)
Panzer 68 Mk.II (1974) upgrades include thermal sleeve, alternator, and CO extractor
Panzer 68 Mk.III (1975) Larger turret
Panzer 68 MK.IV (1978)
Panzer 68 (1988 upgrade) 120mm gun (compatable with Leopard 2 in Swiss service but an L/49 version

 

Also according to volketten

 

Pz.68 is only marginally better than the Pz.61 with 30 more hp and weighing 1 tonne more. 39,700kg compared to 38,000kg and can go 55kmh (5kmh faster)
Its also slightly larger at
Pz.61 Hull - 6.78 x 3.06
Pz.68 Hull - 6.98 x 3.14
Length with gun Pz.61 9.43m
Length with gun Pz.68 9.49m
Heights are similar
Pz.61 2.85m to top of AA mount, 2.72m to top of cupola, firing height 1.93m
Pz.68 2.88m to top of AA mount, 2.75m to top of cupola, firing height 1.96m
Pz.68 has 41cm of ground clearance (1 cm less than the Pz.61)
It does use a 20mm wider (520mm) wide track but the length of track on the ground at 4.13m is the same

 



Strv74 #797 Posted May 21 2014 - 16:58

    Captain

  • Players
  • 15925 battles
  • 1,520
  • [REALM] REALM
  • Member since:
    03-16-2014
If you go by the post on page one (I believe you are) there is no T10 TD. The Taifun really could be an end tier tank, but that leaves the Gepard at tier 8. It would need the potential105mm it could have got. Moving the Gepard up to 8, however, leaves a hole at tier 7. Or we can put in the Autoloaded PanzerKanone in as arty OR a TD, as said before.

Life_In_Black #798 Posted May 21 2014 - 18:43

    Major

  • Players
  • 26288 battles
  • 11,490
  • [KGS] KGS
  • Member since:
    10-29-2011

View Postsp15, on May 21 2014 - 04:54, said:

according to info from volketten the larger turret seem to be outside the timeline

 

Panzer 68 Prototype (~1967)

Panzer 68 Mk.I (1968)
Panzer 68 Mk.II (1974) upgrades include thermal sleeve, alternator, and CO extractor
Panzer 68 Mk.III (1975) Larger turret
Panzer 68 MK.IV (1978)
Panzer 68 (1988 upgrade) 120mm gun (compatable with Leopard 2 in Swiss service but an L/49 version

 

Also according to volketten

 

Pz.68 is only marginally better than the Pz.61 with 30 more hp and weighing 1 tonne more. 39,700kg compared to 38,000kg and can go 55kmh (5kmh faster)
Its also slightly larger at
Pz.61 Hull - 6.78 x 3.06
Pz.68 Hull - 6.98 x 3.14
Length with gun Pz.61 9.43m
Length with gun Pz.68 9.49m
Heights are similar
Pz.61 2.85m to top of AA mount, 2.72m to top of cupola, firing height 1.93m
Pz.68 2.88m to top of AA mount, 2.75m to top of cupola, firing height 1.96m
Pz.68 has 41cm of ground clearance (1 cm less than the Pz.61)
It does use a 20mm wider (520mm) wide track but the length of track on the ground at 4.13m is the same

 

 

In other words, no different than the post 1970 upgrades that are going to be needed to make the Vickers MBT viable at tier 10.



Slakrrrrrr #799 Posted May 21 2014 - 18:55

    Major

  • Players
  • 22233 battles
  • 6,435
  • Member since:
    07-16-2011

View PostLife_In_Black, on May 21 2014 - 10:43, said:

In other words, no different than the post 1970 upgrades that are going to be needed to make the Vickers MBT viable at tier 10.

Why wouldn't the Vickers MBT Mk.1 be viable at tier 10?



Strv74 #800 Posted May 21 2014 - 22:06

    Captain

  • Players
  • 15925 battles
  • 1,520
  • [REALM] REALM
  • Member since:
    03-16-2014

View PostSlakrrrrrr, on May 21 2014 - 19:55, said:

Why wouldn't the Vickers MBT Mk.1 be viable at tier 10?

 

The Leopard is better at everything. If it was given the 120mm rifled gun I can see it balanced:







Also tagged with European, tanks, discussion, italian, new, tech tree, tank tree, Czech, upcomming, poland

2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users