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Why the animosity towards "campers"?


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mattwong #81 Posted Oct 08 2013 - 22:05

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View PostNunya_000, on Oct 07 2013 - 21:52, said:

I played a lot of tier 2 and tier 3s this weekend (mainly tier 2) and I was a bit taken back at the hatred thrown at "campers".  Now I'm not much on camping myself, but I often find myself "camping" the first few minutes of the game to see where weaknesses may develop because of our uncoordinated deployment.....but more importantly to see if the red team is full of suicidal tankers.  I live by the rule of "If the enemy is determined to rush out in the open in order to offer me a chance to shoot them, who am I to turn down that offer".

It seems to me that of the 4 lower tier maps, Malinovka and Province are ideal for a defense deployment.  Mines can go either way.  Himmeldorf offers good choke points, but no real place to camp effectively.

The one guy that really caught my attention started Province by running out in the valley between the towns, while most everybody else took up defensive positions.  When he was quickly killed (as would be expected), he spent the rest of the game complaining about everybody "camping" and that nobody provided him any help or support.

It seem to me that more inexperienced players would be playing the lower tier games and "camping" would be a players first instinct when just learning the game.....well, except for the fools that think it is a good idea to start Malinovka by crossing the open area in a slow tank.

The people who take up "defensive positions" and think they're so smart ... do not realize how much of a debt they owe to the more aggressive players.  More aggressive players spot enemies for you, and achieve map control, ie- keep the enemy from controlling most of the map.  If everyone on a team plays as you do, and camps near the base, it's a guaranteed loss, pretty much 100% of the time.  The enemy's advance units will light your entire base for his big guns, which will pick you apart from beyond visual range.

In short, your strategy seems to work sometimes, but only because others make it possible for you to succeed by camping.  You're like the banker who thinks he's so much smarter than the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker, because he makes more money than any of them.  He doesn't realize that his income is only possible because he dips his hand into the stream of money generated by the economic activity of the worker bees that he thinks himself superior to.

waynejr2 #82 Posted Oct 08 2013 - 22:16

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View PostPipinghot, on Oct 08 2013 - 21:20, said:

Usually the outcome is that you end up dying with the foolish over-extenders. This is not speculation, this is not the What If Game, this is the reality of that usually happens when you try to keep up with foolish players who overextend. You are usually better of sacrificing your foolish players and letting them get killed by their own foolishness than trying to keep up with them.
You will notice that at no time am I recommending staying out of the battle. What I'm specifically saying is not to let yourself get sucked into following people who are making bad decisions, that's all.

You have created a false choice, in reality there are more options. For example, you fight from a strong position with good cover and kill the enemies as they try to attack your position. There are a lot of people who will try to take the offensive against you while you fight from a prepared position.
You are obviously a good player, with a good understanding of how to play random battles, considering that you have a win rate of 56.65% and no BiA medals and no company battles. Why are you trying to tell Newcomers that they should follow people who are making bad decisions?
p.s. Your forum avatar is great.
Sometimes you are put into a bad situation because of others.  Sometimes the best result is to join in rather go solo.  You don't agree, so what?  BULLSHIT about the false choice, you people come up with scenarios then piss on others when they present scenarios.  A POS if you ask me.

jerv #83 Posted Oct 08 2013 - 22:24

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For many, "camping" means "being more than 10m away from the enemy, not firing, and/or driving anything that does <300 damage/shot". It seems brawling is all that matters to many here.

That definition is common enough that I largely ignore accusations of camping, especially in my TDs.

mattwong #84 Posted Oct 08 2013 - 22:27

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View Postjerv, on Oct 08 2013 - 22:24, said:

For many, "camping" means "being more than 10m away from the enemy, not firing, and/or driving anything that does <300 damage/shot". It seems brawling is all that matters to many here.

That definition is common enough that I largely ignore accusations of camping, especially in my TDs.

You exaggerate.  Almost all of the time, when I see people being raged at for camping, they are planted near the flag, or near a corner of the map, or sitting behind some hard cover and refusing to expose themselves even if their teammates desperately need their help.

FlakAttack #85 Posted Oct 08 2013 - 22:48

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There is a big difference between "camping" and "defending". Taking advantageous positions and holding them, or retreating to draw enemies into your team's line of fire are examples of playing defensively, and are valid strategies. Sitting on the flag all game and exclaiming "I AM DEFENDING ARTY" is camping, and is pretty much useless. Knowing when to advance, when to retreat, and when to just sit on it are all part of typical gaming strategy. Camping back at base or shooting your KV-2 from 500m are dumb and useless actions. Don't do them.

Edited by FlakAttack, Oct 08 2013 - 22:49.


Nukelavee45 #86 Posted Oct 08 2013 - 22:50

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View Postmattwong, on Oct 08 2013 - 22:05, said:

The people who take up "defensive positions" and think they're so smart ... do not realize how much of a debt they owe to the more aggressive players.  More aggressive players spot enemies for you, and achieve map control, ie- keep the enemy from controlling most of the map.  If everyone on a team plays as you do, and camps near the base, it's a guaranteed loss, pretty much 100% of the time.  The enemy's advance units will light your entire base for his big guns, which will pick you apart from beyond visual range.

In short, your strategy seems to work sometimes, but only because others make it possible for you to succeed by camping.  You're like the banker who thinks he's so much smarter than the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker, because he makes more money than any of them.  He doesn't realize that his income is only possible because he dips his hand into the stream of money generated by the economic activity of the worker bees that he thinks himself superior to.

Except that defense does matter, and that "more agressive" also includes things like suicide scouts, lemming rushes, and other types of stupidity that lead to losses.

If you really want to discuss "control" of the map, you have to accept that one can often overlook and control vast area's from a good blind, as compared to being huddled against a building or rock with 4 tanks waiting on the other side.

It's not a question of defensive or aggressive fighting, both have their place.  As a matter of fact, it generally takes a combination of the two.  I'm going to assume in company and clan fights, people combine the two in a coordinated manner.

Also, maybe the banker thinks he's smarter BECAUSE he knows why his income is possible, and is allowed to do it anyway.

mattwong #87 Posted Oct 08 2013 - 23:00

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View PostNukelavee45, on Oct 08 2013 - 22:50, said:

Except that defense does matter, and that "more agressive" also includes things like suicide scouts, lemming rushes, and other types of stupidity that lead to losses.

Yes, there are plenty of ways in which incompetent aggressive play can lead to losses.  However, a team where every tank huddles around the flag will lose virtually 100% of the time.  Categorically speaking, it is still worse.

Quote

If you really want to discuss "control" of the map, you have to accept that one can often overlook and control vast area's from a good blind, as compared to being huddled against a building or rock with 4 tanks waiting on the other side.

True, but you and I both know that when someone is being raged at for camping, he is usually not spotting a large area for his teammates.  He is usually hiding in a corner or behind hard cover where he can't spot a damned thing until it's on top of him.

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It's not a question of defensive or aggressive fighting, both have their place.  As a matter of fact, it generally takes a combination of the two.  I'm going to assume in company and clan fights, people combine the two in a coordinated manner.

I never said it didn't.  What I said was that campers need aggressive players in order to succeed, and a team composed of 100% campers will lose almost every time.  A team composed of 100% attackers might not win every time, but they have a better chance of winning than a team of 100% campers.

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Also, maybe the banker thinks he's smarter BECAUSE he knows why his income is possible, and is allowed to do it anyway.

Then he should realize that he is essentially a parasite, and be more thankful to the people who make it possible.

Pipinghot #88 Posted Oct 08 2013 - 23:10

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View Postwaynejr2, on Oct 08 2013 - 22:16, said:

Sometimes you are put into a bad situation because of others. Sometimes the best result is to join in rather go solo. You don't agree, so what? BULLSHIT about the false choice, you people come up with scenarios then piss on others when they present scenarios. A POS if you ask me.
Your swearing and use of caps to yell at people is impressive and persuasive, not to mention your grasp of the finer points of reasoning.

Edited by Pipinghot, Oct 08 2013 - 23:12.


zedrage #89 Posted Oct 08 2013 - 23:24

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most people i see raging and calling people campers are dead guys, the very first morons to charge to their death then blame anyone who didnt die with them i usually laugh at them and tell them to stfu, if you want to charge to your death and die  in the opening minutes then do it and own it if you want to sit back and snipe/camp then do it and own it, personally like some others here i sit at the beginning and see how the fight unfolds then i will play mostly overwatch then flank and try get a drop on enemy tanks i play TD's almost exclusively and nearly always finish in the top 3 for damage dealt, if people dont like the way i play then they can go f*&% themselves i will not play the way someone else wants, dont like it then tough sh&%. worry about your own game and leave me alone,

Hooch_ #90 Posted Oct 09 2013 - 01:06

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Camping - the bad way, you hide and not use your tank in the manner it was designed for, example generally... Russian tanks are brawlers, American fast, shoot and scoot stuff.

Camping - the good way, you find cover and use your long gun to kill at range, German tanks are good at this generally. I play TD's a load of the time, and get tons of kills and get called a "camper" all the time. At the end I have 2 to 6 kills in a good game.

Play to the strength of the tank

Zakume #91 Posted Oct 09 2013 - 02:19

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Anything in reference to below tier 5 is irrelevant, people don't even know how to play yet.

Icon_Charlie #92 Posted Oct 09 2013 - 05:59

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I keep data on differnt things with my time here.  In my case 1 out of 8 in my losses (average of course) comes from people camping. I see in my case (tier 4 to 7) game it was the Heavies doing a great deal of it.   Respect is earned on how you play this game.  Each tank has a primary role (and secondaries built into the tank itself) it has to play.  I have little to no respect to those who just sit there in cover and let other tankers get destroyed nearby.   In random games you are going to see people who do not understand the concept of teamwork.  The "I" mentality is prevelant and that is not a healthy thing to see.
Icon_Charlie will continue do what he has stated when making his first posting here and that is to be a team player and not worry to much about his statistics or his Hetzer getting blown up.

Edited by Icon_Charlie, Oct 09 2013 - 06:00.


Dunfalach #93 Posted Oct 09 2013 - 06:04

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View Postmattwong, on Oct 08 2013 - 22:05, said:

You're like the banker who thinks he's so much smarter than the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker, because he makes more money than any of them.  He doesn't realize that his income is only possible because he dips his hand into the stream of money generated by the economic activity of the worker bees that he thinks himself superior to.

View PostNukelavee45, on Oct 08 2013 - 22:50, said:

Also, maybe the banker thinks he's smarter BECAUSE he knows why his income is possible, and is allowed to do it anyway.

The banker makes money by loaning out the baker's money, in terms of parasiting. But it can also be by charging credit card processing fees, which recoups investments the bank has made (and risks of non-payment they take) in setting up for credit cards. Not that some of the fees aren't insane. Also, if the baker borrowed money from the banker to buy his oven, then the banker made the baker's revenue stream possible.

View PostFlakAttack, on Oct 08 2013 - 22:48, said:

Camping back at base or shooting your KV-2 from 500m are dumb and useless actions. Don't do them.

Camping back at base, certainly. Shooting the KV-2 at long range....depends on the situation. No one expects the derp snipe. Got a thousand damage 1-shot on an AC 48 tonight that was nice enough to turn around for me while lit. :)

Nukelavee45 #94 Posted Oct 09 2013 - 15:22

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Mattwong -

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True, but you and I both know that when someone is being raged at for camping, he is usually not spotting a large area for his teammates.  He is usually hiding in a corner or behind hard cover where he can't spot a damned thing until it's on top of him.

The problem is that  I don't actually know that.  I do understand that by camping, that's what you mean, and I'm going to assume you can also tell if somebody is actually sniping/overwatch.  Many players can't, or won't, tell the difference, they just rage because things didn't go their way, or weren't played the way they wanted.

I also agree that, realistically, bad aggressive play is more likely to win than bad defense.  Maybe it would help if we refered to passive players rather than defensive.

It all comes down to bad players doing it wrong, whether they are leeching by hiding, or blaming "campers" for not somehow taking advantage of a suicide charge.  My personal issue with a topic like this is that, as a newbish player, I try to learn from other players.  The trick is to sift out the good advice/criticism from the crap, but even that takes some experience.  So, at your level, you understand winning is a combination of efforts, and offense and defense - odds are if you call out somebody for camping, it's a legitimate call.  But, how does a newb know when it's you, and not a raging 12 year old?

Meh - it's a gripe of mine, and maybe a personal flaw as well (Mom's been saying it's a flaw for 45 years now....) but generalist statements and imprecise language drive me nuts in debates, because I hate assuming I know exactly what somebody means, because usually it isn't exact, and then endless time is wasted finding out, hey, we agree.

Reckers #95 Posted Oct 09 2013 - 16:58

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View Postmadgiecool, on Oct 07 2013 - 22:28, said:

Its all about POV.

...And I've seen some fantastic arguments over the years.  One of the best ones was a camping T28 (US TD) on mines sitting on the north hill covering his cap.  A wee bit of team rage from some of the team about how the useless T28 should have pushed for the center hill with the mine because of his great front armour.  He just sat there the whole game and got sniper, steel wall and top gun.  

Grats on his achievements, I saw both sides of the discussion... and this is just one example.

As a rule, I don't mind camping TD's.  Its part of not having a turret.  Hvys sitting on start next to an arty player fuel my inner anger.  Prem hvys camping..... why didn't they buy a TD?

Excellent...plus one for you.

Your T28 story is an excellent example of ignorant players trying to run a team into ruin.  The T28 is extremely slow and has thin sides and back.  Unless provided a pair of slow-moving escorts to protect it en route, it would be slaughtered before making it to the center hill.  Instead, the T28 chose ground that would support his success instead of wasting himself playing someone else's game.  I had a similar experience on Arctic, spawning at the south.  I was perched on a hill in SW corner, sniping successfully.  An idiot who had joined in the heavy-lemming rush up the east side started demanding I move up and "support the attack" on the east, while I was doing that just fine on the west.  The lil mouth-breather apparently didn't realize it would take me the rest of the battle to crawl over there to join his mass-suicide.

Duma #96 Posted Oct 09 2013 - 18:07

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View PostSaluk7, on Oct 07 2013 - 22:04, said:

WOT is basically a team game.  Camping by yourself is not part of the team.  Ultimately each type of tank has a role.  TD's are the only type of tank that could possibly justify camping.  Any other tank type is only hurting the team by not fulfilling their role.
Everyone on the team loses when it is short a player because they decided to camp.  Once a team is down a tank or two the game is usually lost.  Camping tanks put the team down one tank to begin with.

Yes it is a team game.

Rushing off to die early isn't a team game.  Dying early puts the team down how many tanks at the beginning?

Don't be that guy...  You know the Lemming.

lordelamin #97 Posted Oct 09 2013 - 19:31

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The trick is to know when to move vs when to stand still. I've been in many games were the scout suicide before they can get the rest of the team intell on were the enemy is massing for his push. The problem is now the threat to enemy arty or light flankers is removed from play. Scouts are very very valuable, and light the enemy up for the rest of the team. If they can get some shots in or kill arty, then all the better.

Over exstending or being Rambo is another problem I see. Going out at the tip of the spear alone is bad for the team, but if two/three are wolf packing, then it can turn the game on it's head. Even with this, you can't do it all by yourself, you need support from the others on your team.

Sperrverband #98 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 06:30

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camping/sniping etc...

It comes down to the play style of your tank, and your own abilities.

When I play my KV1, I always try to never let the engine cool off for too long... it's a break through tank.  My tiger?  Not so much, I always try to hang back from the front line and do as much damage as I can from a distance. Now, on the rare occasion that the tiger is near the top or is the top tank (seriousy,less than 10% of the time for me)... then you are more aggressive and fill in the roll of the quasi front line tank a bit more.

A sniper out in the open is a dead sniper, but a sniper in a useless spot is a rotten camper.

TD's.... snipe from cover, for sure.

Covering flanks, even if you're not engaging within the first few minutes, is still uselful... especially if your team mates don't move to support that flank.  Nothing is more irksome than having enemies roll up on your back door without even so much as a "hello!", just because someone felt watching a flank was unproductive... and was caught & flattened in the open before they could even effectively spot the enemy advance.

There are untangibles in battle... passive scouts that maintain cover but give eyes... they are more valuable if they never fire their weapon.  Artillery that scares a heavy into not breaking through when it could have a devestating effect, allowing allies to respond to the situation... equally important, even if no damage is done.


My personal pet peeve is people that race forward to positions that can't be supported properly by the team, then they get wasted and complain about campers.  There are so many options, including tactical withdrawls and bluffs... not to mention concentrated fire... that can be used if people just think tactically for a moment.  Camp for a bit, absorb the initial impact, counter assault...move your position under cover fire, then advance the cover troops to the next tactical position.   Never forget the objective, which is to win... not necessarily to eliminate all enemy players.

I'm just an average player, but I think my opinion has validity.

waynejr2 #99 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 08:20

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View PostPipinghot, on Oct 08 2013 - 23:10, said:

Your swearing and use of caps to yell at people is impressive and persuasive, not to mention your grasp of the finer points of reasoning.
Who cares you what you think?  If you were a better player perhaps. See you are mr know it all.

slimj091 #100 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 10:26

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View Posthobowankenobi, on Oct 07 2013 - 22:08, said:

Too many new players come in with a COD mentality, and rush out to engage in a fire fight.  No patience, no tactics:  Charge!!

They don't know about sniping, arty, spotting range, accuracy rates, derp guns, module damage, and so on.  They will learn, or they will rage quit the game.

Working as intended.

the only campers that get me are the ones that only move 50 meters from the starting spawn, and hide behind a bush for the entirety of the match. in fact i'm just going to add anyone who doesn't move from their camping position for the entirety of the match. i've seen it more times than i care to remember where one or two tanks stay camping way in the rear well out of view range of any of the enemy team. they just sit there hoping someone will drive in front of them when the actual match is taking place 600 meters away.