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I'd like to learn the truth


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_Freddy_ #281 Posted Jan 30 2014 - 18:07

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View PostDorneles, on Jan 30 2014 - 16:30, said:


1- such manual is a hoax to promote hate in the heart of the americans. Ask any WWII tank veteran, and he will tell u: ENGAGE!

 

2- no even close. The Sherman turret do not have angle to work as a arty piece, and again, it was a breakthrough tank. An arty stay WAY behind...

 

It did and was used as indirect artillery - as were tank destroyers and even the British 3.7" AA gun. 

 

Due to the flatter trajectory of the guns on the TD's they were often placed on firing platforms to elevate the front of the hull - Shermans had a better elevation and lower MV gun though so did not need this.

 

http://www.warhistor...d-fighting.html

 

Block Quote

The TDs showed that they were capable of functioning in an assault gun role, if given a fairly free hand. TDs prefer to work up to a fixed objective deliberately, using indirect fire if possible; otherwise they launch a coordinated direct fire attack, using destroyers in pairs: one to fire, the other as a covering gun. Fire should be combined with movement. A successful commander of armor has said that in armor it is “Dig and Die.” The battalion felt that infantry commanders could get much more from the TDs by assigning general missions, letting TD commanders make detailed tactical decisions.

This TD battalion — like others in Italy — thinks that it should tie right in as a battalion to the divisional artillery when acting in its secondary role as artillery. Its officers are mainly artillerymen, and after spending entire months on the main front in a secondary artillery role the rest of the officers became fully qualified. Tank Destroyer battalions in this theater like to run their own show, and feel that they do better work when they do their own forward observation, fire direction, and position area survey. The tie-in with the division artillery provides for long-range harassing missions beyond the capabilities of the 105-mm howitzer M2, and makes available TD observers, particularly in the reconnaissance company, capable of adjusting the divisional artillery.

 

3- Pershings dont saw combat only due its logistics. It was hell stupid send 4 pershings, whille u can send 10 shermans.

 

The war wasnt only made on tank. Tanks was only a tool of an whole theater, where infantry combats, spys, bombardmends, weather condition and competence/incompetence of command decided the "match" too.

 



Dominatus #282 Posted Jan 30 2014 - 18:21

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I think all American tank and tank destroyer (including halftrack and towed) units had indirect fire training.

Meplat #283 Posted Jan 30 2014 - 19:15

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View PostDominatus, on Jan 30 2014 - 10:21, said:

I think all American tank and tank destroyer (including halftrack and towed) units had indirect fire training.

In the M-18 Hellcat I occasionally deal with- These are used for indirect fire.

Most WW2 U.S. armor had similar.

 

And yes, the M4 and the M3 mediums had excellent indirect fire capability for their time.

 

 

 



1Sherman #284 Posted Jan 30 2014 - 19:38

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NEW Topic Time!!!!! How do people like the Chieftain get access to historical documents that tell the truth about WWII tanks? Do they have access to secure, classified documents held by federal governments on the exact performance specifications of WWII tanks? As well, if they get them off the Internet or books, how do you know it's true? Anyone regardless of their stupidity can write a book on a subject and/or write an article on the Internet (Especially the Internet). So anyways, how do tank historians know that the contents of a book and/or website and/or document are entirely true and how do tank historians get access to documents? Discuss.

Dominatus #285 Posted Jan 30 2014 - 19:40

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You do realize that the National Archives of most countries are open to the public...right?

EnsignExpendable #286 Posted Jan 30 2014 - 19:57

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View Post1Sherman, on Jan 30 2014 - 13:38, said:

NEW Topic Time!!!!! How do people like the Chieftain get access to historical documents that tell the truth about WWII tanks? Do they have access to secure, classified documents held by federal governments on the exact performance specifications of WWII tanks? As well, if they get them off the Internet or books, how do you know it's true? Anyone regardless of their stupidity can write a book on a subject and/or write an article on the Internet (Especially the Internet). So anyways, how do tank historians know that the contents of a book and/or website and/or document are entirely true and how do tank historians get access to documents? Discuss.

 

These documents are 70 years old. They have either been declassified or are automatically declassified when the request is made for them. Almost all WWII stuff is open, but post-war is a harder topic to breach. 

 

These documents are usually physically available to visitors, or are scanned and online in miserly amounts. The reason for that is there are literal tons of paper, and it's a massive pain in the ass to sift through. Say, you want to get to the combat performance of the Sherman. You can't just go to a section named "Sherman" and look. You have to go to the archive section for the various units that fielded Shermans, and then go over their impressions of it. Oh, and while you may be looking for a very specific model of Sherman, the guy writing the combat diary likely just wrote "Sherman", so you need to find the unit's delivery manifests, and figure out exactly what kind of Sherman they had and when. 

 

When trying to figure out how trustworthy the book is, go to the end and look at the references. The best kind of book relies almost exclusively on primary sources (archive documents). A book that relies on other books makes your job a little harder, since you have to find those books and look at their bibliographies. Don't believe something just because it's cited, lots of people make mistakes like taking Schneider's kill claims and turning them into confirmed kills. If something isn't sourced at all (like Belton Cooper's trash), it's probably not a very good book.



CaspianF #287 Posted Jan 30 2014 - 19:58

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Today, I saw that the Wikipedia page for "American Technology in World War II" repeats the Ronson myth about the Sherman, and this sparked my interest in trying to do a quick search for information about that slogan. I came across an archived Wikipedia talk page about the Sherman.

 

That was a horrible mistake - that page would probably make the heads of half this forum explode. Beware.



Walter_Sobchak #288 Posted Jan 30 2014 - 21:22

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View Post1Sherman, on Jan 30 2014 - 13:38, said:

NEW Topic Time!!!!! How do people like the Chieftain get access to historical documents that tell the truth about WWII tanks? Do they have access to secure, classified documents held by federal governments on the exact performance specifications of WWII tanks? As well, if they get them off the Internet or books, how do you know it's true? Anyone regardless of their stupidity can write a book on a subject and/or write an article on the Internet (Especially the Internet). So anyways, how do tank historians know that the contents of a book and/or website and/or document are entirely true and how do tank historians get access to documents? Discuss.


There also is the DTIC website, which holds a ton of government defense documents.  However, you have to have a password to access a lot of the content, and those are only given out to people with either military or defense contractor qualifications.  The Chieftain has one of these passwords, I remember him saying so in a thread. 



Meplat #289 Posted Jan 30 2014 - 22:18

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View PostCaspianF, on Jan 30 2014 - 11:58, said:

Today, I saw that the Wikipedia page for "American Technology in World War II" repeats the Ronson myth about the Sherman, and this sparked my interest in trying to do a quick search for information about that slogan. I came across an archived Wikipedia talk page about the Sherman.

 

That was a horrible mistake - that page would probably make the heads of half this forum explode. Beware.


It's Wikipedia. That means anyone can vomit anything on it, and many do just that.



blurr91 #290 Posted Jan 30 2014 - 23:21

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View PostEnsignExpendable, on Jan 30 2014 - 10:57, said:

 

These documents are 70 years old. They have either been declassified or are automatically declassified when the request is made for them. Almost all WWII stuff is open, but post-war is a harder topic to breach.

 

These documents are usually physically available to visitors, or are scanned and online in miserly amounts. The reason for that is there are literal tons of paper, and it's a massive pain in the ass to sift through. Say, you want to get to the combat performance of the Sherman. You can't just go to a section named "Sherman" and look. You have to go to the archive section for the various units that fielded Shermans, and then go over their impressions of it. Oh, and while you may be looking for a very specific model of Sherman, the guy writing the combat diary likely just wrote "Sherman", so you need to find the unit's delivery manifests, and figure out exactly what kind of Sherman they had and when.

 

When trying to figure out how trustworthy the book is, go to the end and look at the references. The best kind of book relies almost exclusively on primary sources (archive documents). A book that relies on other books makes your job a little harder, since you have to find those books and look at their bibliographies. Don't believe something just because it's cited, lots of people make mistakes like taking Schneider's kill claims and turning them into confirmed kills. If something isn't sourced at all (like Belton Cooper's trash), it's probably not a very good book.

 

That's too much work.  Can't we just go with Nazi kill claims?



1Sherman #291 Posted Feb 01 2014 - 00:09

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View Postblurr91, on Jan 30 2014 - 23:21, said:

 

That's too much work.  Can't we just go with Nazi kill claims?


I'm pretty sure we can't because of these reasons

1: Propaganda changing the numbers to look better.

2: Tank crews losing track of how many tanks they shoot.

3: Tank crews accidentally claiming someone else's kill as their own by accident.

4: Documents that were made with the mistaken kills that tank crews thought they had claimed. 



The_Chieftain #292 Posted Feb 01 2014 - 00:52

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View Post1Sherman, on Jan 30 2014 - 18:38, said:

NEW Topic Time!!!!! How do people like the Chieftain get access to historical documents that tell the truth about WWII tanks? Do they have access to secure, classified documents held by federal governments on the exact performance specifications of WWII tanks? As well, if they get them off the Internet or books, how do you know it's true? Anyone regardless of their stupidity can write a book on a subject and/or write an article on the Internet (Especially the Internet). So anyways, how do tank historians know that the contents of a book and/or website and/or document are entirely true and how do tank historians get access to documents? Discuss.

 

Go here. http://worldoftanks....ional-archives/



doonglerules #293 Posted Feb 01 2014 - 00:54

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This guy is miserably out of date. A couple videos later Jingles said The_Chieftan himself went to tell him most of the factoids in the book were wrong.

1Sherman #294 Posted Feb 01 2014 - 03:35

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View Postdoonglerules, on Feb 01 2014 - 00:54, said:

This guy is miserably out of date. A couple videos later Jingles said The_Chieftan himself went to tell him most of the factoids in the book were wrong.

Was that post directed to me? If so, I suggest you read all of the posts that came after I made this topic.






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