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kv-1s gun nerf

kv-1s heavy tank soviet

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RagnarokBazil #41 Posted Jan 19 2014 - 17:01

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View PostRagnarokBazil, on Jan 19 2014 - 16:58, said:

 

 

KV1S needs tge nerf so other tanks can be played. in companys just like the coming TD nerf and Heavy nerf thats coming. Upside? kv2 isent getting touched all other heavies in the ussr is getting the bat. Ironic isent it? after warthunders tanks came out. wargwming finally stepped up. and the gameplay for the Kv-1s in warthunder is funny because it only has the 85mm!!! warthunder listions while wargaming isent and when people stop playing they are going to have to nerf the damn thing.

 



M4A3E8sherman #42 Posted Jan 22 2014 - 05:13

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Not that I have much experience, but I guess I need to bring this up since nobody ever seems to mention it in light of DPM vs Alpha discussions.

 

On a high damage, low fire rate gun, the DPM is actually much higher than what you would get simply from multiplying the RPM by the damage. Why? Because the first shot you fire is instant, presuming your gun was loaded prior to the engagement.

 

Let me explain how this works.

 

Let's say we have a gun that deals 2000 damage but takes a full minute to reload. Say the match begins, and it's 90 seconds before you shoot your first enemy. You deal 2000 damage. Now you wait 60 seconds to shoot again, and deal another 2000 damage.

 

So in the first minute after you have begun firing, you have ACTUALLY dealt 4000 damage. A far cry from the good, but not particularly impressive, 2000 that you would get simply from multiplying the average damage by the RPM. This also applies to lower damage, higher RoF weapons, but derp guns and the such get the most benefit.

 

So just by multiplying the 122mm's RPM (3.75) by the damage (390), you would get 1462.5. However, presuming your gun is loaded when you face your first enemy (and it very likely is), you are actually dealing an average of 1852.5 damage in the first minute after you begin firing. The formula for finding DPM in the first minute alone is really (RPM+1)*AvgDamage, not AvgDamage*RPM-unless your gun still isn't reloaded by the time you shoot the first enemy.

 

But wait, you say. That still doesn't sound very impressive. I mean, it'd still be worse than the T-34-85's 1980, right?

 

Well, yes. The problem is that greater DPM doesn't always translate into a faster time-to-kill.

 

You see, because the first shot has no delay, the time to kill for a 1-shot on the first enemy you encounter equals the time it takes the shell to travel the distance to the target plus the time it takes for the game engine to register the hit, and the latter is too trivial to make much of a difference. When you have a 2 shot kill, the time-to-kill equals the shell travel time plus the delay between 2 shots. On the D-2-5T, this is 16 seconds.

 

So if you can 2 shot a tank with your 122mm on the KV-1S, and your gun was already loaded, your time-to-kill is 16 seconds+shell travel time. This happens to be the case for a lot of opponents. Comparatively, it would take:

  • 23.1 seconds+travel time for a M1A2 76mm on the Jumbo or my namesake to kill a KV-1S
  • 19.5 seconds+travel time for the 75mm Vickers on the Cromwell to kill a KV-1S
  • 24 seconds for the 85mm on the T-34-85 to kill a KV-1S
  • 21.5 seconds+travel time for the 77mm on the Churchill to kill a KV-1S
  • 20.7 seconds+travel time for the L/56 on the VK 36.01H to kill a KV-1S
  • 22.8 seconds+travel time for the 90mm on the M6

So it seems like the Heavies stand a pretty good chance, right? After all, they, on average, will be able to take more than 2 hits.

 

Well, in a one-on-one fight, yes. Unfortunately for them, it's not very often that you fight a KV-1S one-on-one. Chances are very good that someone will have spotted you and is now trying to finish you off. They may not even be in the immediate vicinity; a sniper works just as well.

 

After 16 seconds, the:

  • Churchill has 100 health and can pretty much be one-shotted by anything
  • M6 has 90 health, same goes for it
  • VK 36.01H has 170 health, which allows it to take 2 more hits at most. Not bad...but certainly not ideal.

 

And this is why the KV-1S's gun is so lethal, despite possessing a seemingly puny DPM for its tier. Alpha really does matter. Much better alpha damage happens to be a very good substitute for raw DPM when it comes down to TTK.

 

Also note that the actual realized DPM may be and is often only a portion of the theoretical DPM, depending on accuracy and penetration. In the latter the 122mm lacks for nothing. In the former, a KV-1S will likely have time to get to cover. A 5000 DPM gun is worth nothing if it only has 1mm of penetration, because the realized DPM is precisely zilch. Not to mention that you often will not be firing at the max fire rate in an engagement. If a M6 shoots every 10 seconds instead of every 7.6 seconds, it now has a DPM of only 1680. Slower firing, higher damage guns take less of a penalty from this, as their effective RoF is not reduced nearly as much.

 

Now is the KV-1S actually OP? I'll let you all discuss that. I will play some more before I share my opinion. The point is that greater DPM obtained by way of RPM*AvgDamage doesn't always translate so smoothly into a faster TTK. Even if you use the proper formula for the DPM in the first minute after firing, it's still not always the best indicator.

 

I hope my first post on these forums was informative, because I feel it's very important info to know. Good luck & happy hunting.


Edited by M4A3E8sherman, Jan 22 2014 - 05:24.


earthman34 #43 Posted Jan 23 2014 - 18:51

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I don't consider the KV-1S to be all that overpowered, because the reload is so long that a lot of other tanks can get three shots in during that time. If people understood this better they would be better able to deal with it. However, the 122mm gun is not historical, is somewhat overpowered at tier 6, and I don't  really care if they remove it. The 85mm gun does just fine if you know how to use it. I think I used the 85mm for the first 80 games I played with it without ever trying the big gun.

mortuus82 #44 Posted Jan 25 2014 - 13:36

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If you are top with the 122 you can pretty much kill anything , i had a game i was top and easy got 5kills.. did the long reload even bother me? no... with vents 100% crew its not that long really and you can one shot many tier 4 or 5 tanks that is OP no matter what u say and the fact that the tank even moves like a medium not heavy makes it even more OP since it can take down most tanks with 1 or 2 well aimed shots thats just nonsense... they should remove this gun and replace with 105 or whatever max....

BrushWolf #45 Posted Jan 25 2014 - 22:09

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View Postmortuus82, on Jan 25 2014 - 06:36, said:

If you are top with the 122 you can pretty much kill anything , i had a game i was top and easy got 5kills.. did the long reload even bother me? no... with vents 100% crew its not that long really and you can one shot many tier 4 or 5 tanks that is OP no matter what u say and the fact that the tank even moves like a medium not heavy makes it even more OP since it can take down most tanks with 1 or 2 well aimed shots thats just nonsense... they should remove this gun and replace with 105 or whatever max....

 

The gun is overpowered but the armor is not that good for tier 6 heavy, you are a glass cannon. I feel that balances things out rather well.



spartan989 #46 Posted Jan 26 2014 - 00:58

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destroy tracks. Then Destroy turret so they can't turn their turret. Then Flank and set on fire. Killed a 600 health kv1s with derp with my Luchs. 

M4A3E8sherman #47 Posted Jan 26 2014 - 23:47

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Quote

destroy tracks. Then Destroy turret so they can't turn their turret. Then Flank and set on fire. Killed a 600 health kv1s with derp with my Luchs.
That would be asking too much. If you have to go through this entire process of destroying 3 of their modules while all the enemy has to do is Repair Kit+Shift+LMB, then I would say the KV-1S is NOT balanced.

 

I wouldn't claim to be experienced, but if the effort one tank needs to invest in destroying another is disproportionately high AND is also dependent on what consumables they have on hand, something needs to be changed.



AuraDesru #48 Posted Jan 27 2014 - 02:50

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Whiled the KV-1S does have a wonderful 175mm of pen at tier 6 and a high alpha damage. Don't forget that the dispersion/aimtime of the 122mm takes a long time to get tight. A T-150 or even a german tank with the 75mm l/70 would kill it faster than it would kill the other tank. The claim that the KV-1S is op is because no one knows how to deal with such tank. That's like calling the ISU-152 op since it has great alpha. The kill a tank whiled it's reloading. It's something players will need to learn in top tiers when TD start getting large guns that do huge amounts of alpha but reload for a long time. The KV-1S doesn't take much brain to shoot with because of the 175mm. It's not op because of that 15 sec and 3.4 aim time. Just have to learn when to rush that tank when it's reloading it's gun.

M4A3E8sherman #49 Posted Jan 28 2014 - 02:48

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The biggest problem comes when a KV-1S has other tanks supporting it. 16 seconds after it first fires, the KV-1S has either killed any other tank in its tier or brought it to death's door.There's the TOG II, of course, but it's pretty much taken for granted that a land whale will win against any other tank of its tier 1 on 1.

 

The KV-1S is not particularly good at soloing enemy vehicles, but it is quite powerful when working in a group. While coordination in pub matches tends to be limited, most players will still follow others (often to failure) and capitalize on an opponent's damaged state.


Edited by M4A3E8sherman, Jan 28 2014 - 03:20.


esdren #50 Posted Jan 28 2014 - 02:52

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View PostAuraDesru, on Jan 27 2014 - 02:50, said:

Whiled the KV-1S does have a wonderful 175mm of pen at tier 6 and a high alpha damage. Don't forget that the dispersion/aimtime of the 122mm takes a long time to get tight. A T-150 or even a german tank with the 75mm l/70 would kill it faster than it would kill the other tank. The claim that the KV-1S is op is because no one knows how to deal with such tank. That's like calling the ISU-152 op since it has great alpha. The kill a tank whiled it's reloading. It's something players will need to learn in top tiers when TD start getting large guns that do huge amounts of alpha but reload for a long time. The KV-1S doesn't take much brain to shoot with because of the 175mm. It's not op because of that 15 sec and 3.4 aim time. Just have to learn when to rush that tank when it's reloading it's gun.

 

wow.....you really have no idea do you.    3.4 seconds to aim...ok  add another sec on there to pop out and back into cover....so at most the 1s is exposed for 5 seconds.    How many shots is that T150 going to get off in 5 seconds.  1.8?   Since you cant take .8 of a shot you round that back down to 1, in which case you maybe did 250 dmg, while the 1s did 390.  How exactly do you come out on top? 

 

Oh my dpm is greater!!!  wait can I shoot through that rock he is hiding behind?

Oh charge in while hes reloading!!!   Wait am I within 25 meters and actually able to get there before he is reloaded, or am I going to be blasted within seconds of turning the corner?

Oh crap im in a light tank and i can get there with 7 seconds to spare!   Wait how much damage can i do to him in 7 seconds.....and can I survive a hit from him if I cant kill him before he is loaded?

Maybe If I can do the circle of death to him while staying ahead of his turret traverse!   Wait has he taken a solid position alongside a rock or ridge that would slow me down or stop me and let his cannon catch up?  Worse yet, I hope he doesnt have fire support behind him that will cut me down the moment I appear alongside him.

Wooohoo me and another tank charge him together!  We got there with 7 seconds to spare but by the time he was almost dead he was reloaded and killed me, but the other tank fi9nished him!

 

And the comparison to the 152 is simply idiotic.  You are comparing trying to rush and flank a turretless td to doing the same to a turreted fast heavy.

 

I know I said Id bow out, but the ignorance shown in this thread hurts my brain

 


Edited by esdren, Jan 28 2014 - 02:54.


Zaikadi #51 Posted Feb 19 2014 - 00:59

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Compare numbers all you want to. I only know that I don't fear facing KV-1Ss. I've taken them out with mediums (e.g. Type T-34 with the 57mm) and heavies (e.g. KV-1 with the 85mm). I do exploit soft spots, though (e.g. the driver view port).

 

Now that I have a KV-1S, I see more of its weaknesses, and I fear them even less. I hate long load times. However, that said, my damage rate has risen significantly. Last night, in only my third game with the top gun, I hit only 3 tanks in one game, but did over 1500 points of damage (and killed them all). With other tanks, I might break 700 points after hitting 6 and killing 3.



Gunny_Pac #52 Posted Feb 19 2014 - 01:05

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Who cares? All I know is as long as you have one in your garage you get a free tonk and a garage slot when they do it.

killajava25 #53 Posted Feb 22 2014 - 05:59

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View PostJefftiffy, on Jan 05 2014 - 08:34, said:

The point of circling a heavy is it reduces their accuracy heavily and makes it a lot more likely they will miss. If you can outrun their traverse that's even better. And a good medium/light can easily dodge his attempted ram. As to the other part, that's exactly the logic that points to why arty is good for the game. He shouldn't be camping behind a solid object and arty is there to prevent that. If there is no arty, well that's the great flaw in the arty should be removed arguments. Arty removes camping in areas where it would normally be easily camped. If a KV1S is behind cover with his team at his back, it would be stupidity to go after him. Just wait for him to pop out and focus him down.

Artillery supports camping behind cover.






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