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kv-1s gun nerf

kv-1s heavy tank soviet

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BrushWolf #21 Posted Jan 04 2014 - 22:22

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View Postesdren, on Jan 04 2014 - 05:16, said:

 

So explain to me how high alpha tanks are so easy to kill?  Im not understanding your math....810 hp with 800 dmg every 12 seconds vs any t6 med with approx 750hp and 500-600 dmg every 12 seconds.  How exactly is 600 > 800? 

 

Of course i could also list heavy tanks, but we all know the rest of the t6 heavys arent even worth listing as the 1s outperforms them in every way.  there is a reason the 1s is the primary vehicle for company battles

 

Ok, using stock specs and the top gun KV1S vs T34-85, both are tier 6. The KV1S does 390 average damage and fires 3.75 times per minute which gives 1462.5 damage per minute if all shots hit. The T34-85 does 180 averaged damage and fires 10 times per minute for 1800 damage per minute. Even though the KV1S is very mobile for a heavy the T34-85 is still much more mobile and harder to hit, one on one and assuming the T34 doesn't sit and take it the odds are in the T34's favor.



esdren #22 Posted Jan 05 2014 - 07:49

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View PostJefftiffy, on Jan 04 2014 - 17:48, said:

Lets see. KV2 can one shot the KV 1S. Medium tanks are meant to circle and flank not sit in front of them giving the KV1S a 100% accuracy. If you keep moving you can move faster than the KV1S can turn and more than likely cause them to miss a shot. (They miss them all the time when I am going just 30km/h now imagine going 40-50km/h)

 

And KV2 is a completely different situation than the 1s because of the incredibly long reload which allows any tank of its tier to destroy it before the next shell is loaded.

 

As far as you outrunning his turret, 1s has more than enough turret traverse to catch up to any medium that may come calling unless you are at point blank range. And that only applies if the 1s driver was stupid enough to not ram you as you tried to circle, or sat in the open instead of taking position next to a solid structure which would keep you from circling.  Also you are assuming that the 1s driver either had no support behind him or outran his support which would cut you to shreds if you tried to get behind him, 

 

 

View PostBrushWolf, on Jan 04 2014 - 22:22, said:

 

Ok, using stock specs and the top gun KV1S vs T34-85, both are tier 6. The KV1S does 390 average damage and fires 3.75 times per minute which gives 1462.5 damage per minute if all shots hit. The T34-85 does 180 averaged damage and fires 10 times per minute for 1800 damage per minute. Even though the KV1S is very mobile for a heavy the T34-85 is still much more mobile and harder to hit, one on one and assuming the T34 doesn't sit and take it the odds are in the T34's favor.

 

DPM is only worth comparing in extended engagements while both tanks are sitting still letting each other pound on themselves.  In a live game tactical engagement any scrub in a 1s knows to fire and retreat to cover which leaves all those shells that would have gone his way during reload still sitting in your ammo rack thus eliminating your DPM advantage.

 

As I said above, there is a reason the KV-1S is the primary vehicle used in Tank co's



Jefftiffy #23 Posted Jan 05 2014 - 15:34

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View Postesdren, on Jan 05 2014 - 01:49, said:

 

And KV2 is a completely different situation than the 1s because of the incredibly long reload which allows any tank of its tier to destroy it before the next shell is loaded.

 

As far as you outrunning his turret, 1s has more than enough turret traverse to catch up to any medium that may come calling unless you are at point blank range. And that only applies if the 1s driver was stupid enough to not ram you as you tried to circle, or sat in the open instead of taking position next to a solid structure which would keep you from circling.  Also you are assuming that the 1s driver either had no support behind him or outran his support which would cut you to shreds if you tried to get behind him, 

 

 

 

DPM is only worth comparing in extended engagements while both tanks are sitting still letting each other pound on themselves.  In a live game tactical engagement any scrub in a 1s knows to fire and retreat to cover which leaves all those shells that would have gone his way during reload still sitting in your ammo rack thus eliminating your DPM advantage.

 

As I said above, there is a reason the KV-1S is the primary vehicle used in Tank co's

The point of circling a heavy is it reduces their accuracy heavily and makes it a lot more likely they will miss. If you can outrun their traverse that's even better. And a good medium/light can easily dodge his attempted ram. As to the other part, that's exactly the logic that points to why arty is good for the game. He shouldn't be camping behind a solid object and arty is there to prevent that. If there is no arty, well that's the great flaw in the arty should be removed arguments. Arty removes camping in areas where it would normally be easily camped. If a KV1S is behind cover with his team at his back, it would be stupidity to go after him. Just wait for him to pop out and focus him down.



Laord #24 Posted Jan 14 2014 - 10:10

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So the KV1-S is OP because of the 122mm gun that takes ages to reload, it means nothing that the armor is really weak, has poor visibility and that ussually matches up with tiers 8-9 that can easily oneshot the KV1-S. I just don't get it... let's see... taking for instance the Hellcat, a TD that shoots like a medium tank, moves like a light tank but sill keeps the cammo of a TD meaning invissible tanks shooting at you... but that is not OP, right?

 



mortuus82 #25 Posted Jan 14 2014 - 13:05

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Well the kv1s with its 122 gun can even damage tier 8 or 9 if it could have faced those, is hellcat even threat? no.... not saying kv1s is but its gun can make some damage at least if hits....

SquirrelSmasher #26 Posted Jan 14 2014 - 15:42

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I found this a very interesting thread, my own thoughts are yes the KV1S is friggan OP as all hell. I thought some of the dpm arguments were funny, sure the T-34-85 can out dpm the 1S but the 1s usually only needs 2 shots to do enough damage to ruin Mr. T34's day. The gun either needs a pen nerf or they can just give the !s the 100mm D10T. I'm having fun with that gun on my IS, had a 1800 damage game as the bottom tier in a tier 9 game look at my stats im not that good nd in a tier 9 game I can manage a decent score with the 100mm so that would be a great gun at tier 6. As for the pen nerf on the 122 give it 155 pen. Then it will bounce a fair amount so then you won't fear the gun nearly as much. I prefer the 100mm idea myself. I think its a wonderful gun.

Laord #27 Posted Jan 14 2014 - 23:28

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View Postmortuus82, on Jan 14 2014 - 06:05, said:

Well the kv1s with its 122 gun can even damage tier 8 or 9 if it could have faced those, is hellcat even threat? no.... not saying kv1s is but its gun can make some damage at least if hits....


So the idea is that tier 6 must not be able to cause damage on tiers 8-9?



esdren #28 Posted Jan 16 2014 - 21:51

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View PostLaord, on Jan 14 2014 - 10:10, said:

So the KV1-S is OP because of the 122mm gun that takes ages to reload, it means nothing that the armor is really weak, has poor visibility and that ussually matches up with tiers 8-9 that can easily oneshot the KV1-S. I just don't get it... let's see... taking for instance the Hellcat, a TD that shoots like a medium tank, moves like a light tank but sill keeps the cammo of a TD meaning invissible tanks shooting at you... but that is not OP, right?

 

 

And herein we have the reason why every bit of your credibility goes by by.  Kv-1S will never see a tier 9 tank unless you platoon with a scout or higher tier.    Of the tanks you can actually see in a standard unplatooned match, there are only maybe 1 or 2 aside from arti that can 1 hit kill you and only with a lucky RNG roll.    Conversely, your 122 can 1 shot kill almost all tier 4 vehicles, and just about any tier 5 short of MT's and HT's.   Crying about hellcats is just funny though.  Firing at max range they are a pain in the ass, but once they are spotted it is nearly always instant death.   Like most tanks at lower tiers, they rely on DPM to be effective, but as any experienced player can tell you, it is alpha damage which rules this game.

 


Edited by esdren, Jan 16 2014 - 21:53.


RagnarokBazil #29 Posted Jan 17 2014 - 19:27

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how about you give the kv-1s, 122 the kv2 AP gold rounds pen? 117? i think it is. hell kv2 has a 152 derp gun. last i checked bigger gun more pen. I bounce a fair ammount with that ap ammo. give it that and nerf the reload another 3-5 seconds and aimintime by 1, and its a balanced gun.  nerf the turret traverse by kv2 standards. and the hull traverse. to compersate for the nerf have it have 15-25 mm of armor added to it. i say thats fair.

Edited by RagnarokBazil, Jan 17 2014 - 19:29.


6TEKEL9 #30 Posted Jan 17 2014 - 20:31

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View PostCommander_to, on Jan 04 2014 - 09:01, said:

 

Also, if KV-1S is OP, the KV-2 would be monstrously OP because of the alpha it deals. 1 HE shell completely crushes any tier IV tank.

1 HE shell completely destroys the current KV-1S even after the poor KV2 has been hit with the nerf bat multiple times.

 



iron_crosstx #31 Posted Jan 17 2014 - 20:47

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you wouldent like me in my kv-2, i got the BIGGER derp gun on it, and with my crew skills and equipment, i get a 12 second reload, almost what i have on my kv-1s and i have 1 shot a tiger in it.

MarvinTheParanoidAndroid #32 Posted Jan 17 2014 - 20:59

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View Postesdren, on Jan 04 2014 - 05:16, said:

 

So explain to me how high alpha tanks are so easy to kill?  Im not understanding your math....810 hp with 800 dmg every 12 seconds vs any t6 med with approx 750hp and 500-600 dmg every 12 seconds.  How exactly is 600 > 800? 

 

Of course i could also list heavy tanks, but we all know the rest of the t6 heavys arent even worth listing as the 1s outperforms them in every way.  there is a reason the 1s is the primary vehicle for company battles

 

ummm...

 

800 damage and 12 second reload? No Idea what tank you're talking about.  The 122 mm on the KV-1s does 390 damage with a minimum 13.20 second reload (I tried, that's with 100% crew, gun rammer, BIA, vents, and extra rations). Almost any other tier 6 tank can out-dpm a KV-1s. If you always lose in a one-on-one fight with a Kv-1s, you're doing it wrong. 

 

And you think the 1s' gun is OP? the SU-100 has the same gun, but it reload 3 seconds faster. The T-150 does 300 damage and fires nearly twice as fast. The hellcat's top gun does 240 damage and fires more than twice as fast as the KV-1s' gun. Moral of the story? Kv-1s is far from the deadliest gun in tier 6, and yet it is the target for nerfs by players the most. 

 

This thread is just one of the several hundred created by people who got killed by a 1s and angrily cried on the forums. Move on.



Brutalus_Maximus #33 Posted Jan 17 2014 - 22:09

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What tank is the most used in Tier 6 team battles and tournaments?    Maybe its the most over powered ones?

esdren #34 Posted Jan 18 2014 - 02:08

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View Postiron_crosstx, on Jan 17 2014 - 20:47, said:

you wouldent like me in my kv-2, i got the BIGGER derp gun on it, and with my crew skills and equipment, i get a 12 second reload, almost what i have on my kv-1s and i have 1 shot a tiger in it.

 

Cool story, except your 152mm actually cant 1hko a tiger without ammo rack detonation, which Ive done in in an M5..

 

 

View PostMarvinTheParanoidAndroid, on Jan 17 2014 - 20:59, said:

800 damage and 12 second reload? No Idea what tank you're talking about.  The 122 mm on the KV-1s does 390 damage with a minimum 13.20 second reload (I tried, that's with 100% crew, gun rammer, BIA, vents, and extra rations). Almost any other tier 6 tank can out-dpm a KV-1s. If you always lose in a one-on-one fight with a Kv-1s, you're doing it wrong.

 

And you think the 1s' gun is OP? the SU-100 has the same gun, but it reload 3 seconds faster. The T-150 does 300 damage and fires nearly twice as fast. The hellcat's top gun does 240 damage and fires more than twice as fast as the KV-1s' gun. Moral of the story? Kv-1s is far from the deadliest gun in tier 6, and yet it is the target for nerfs by players the most.

 

This thread is just one of the several hundred created by people who got killed by a 1s and angrily cried on the forums. Move on.

 

Ok sorry, i misphrased.   780 dmg within 13.2 seconds of the beginning of an engagement which is more than enough to destroy any equal tier MT and depending on RNG either destroy or seriously cripple any equal tier HT.   You are also back to comparing front loaded alpha damage to DPM, 2 completely different things of which the former is the one which rules the current meta.  Most tanks can out-dpm a 1S if they can survive long enough, the problem comes from the fact that unless that 1s is an idiot or he gets screwed by RNG that faster firing tank will not survive to outdpm him.  

 

As far as the 122 on su100, its a td, has no turret, cannot angle its frontal armor, is helpless if circled, and has less than 600hp.    Just like the S35 or whatever the hell it is, great gun but easily destroyed.   Hellcat has turret and decent gun scoutlike speed, but poor turn rate, Zero armor and low HP.

 

I bought a 1S a while back.  After 250 matches and 58% win rate I sold it because I got tired of how pathetically easy it was to play.



brawler1967 #35 Posted Jan 18 2014 - 02:10

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Ugh, another arty whiner. Neg rep coming troll.

esdren #36 Posted Jan 18 2014 - 02:21

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and since I know that Ill never convince some people, I now bow out.  Enjoy your troll tank while it lasts



RogueZebra #37 Posted Jan 18 2014 - 23:53

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View PostAtrophy, on Jan 04 2014 - 05:27, said:

The biggest problem with the KV1s is the rate of fire. Tier 6 heavy tanks can't kill it in a shoot-out because it gets such a lead with the first shot and doesn't really fall behind in DPM.  I say it should shoot at 3.25-3.5 RPM.  

I have been outgunned more than a few times by other tier 6 heavies especially when I am by myself but that is a different story altogether. Yes people cry because the alpha is high and it has good speed and mobility however it is often out gunned by drivers that know their tanks. I may have the alpha but when you can out pace me with your dpm and mobility I have to hope you want to play peek a boom because that is how I win. My armor is not very good for tier 6 but if angled properly it can bounce and the tracks can eat shots but then you run the risk of getting perma tracked by what you are trying to prey on and you get flanked by others. I regularly win 1 vs 1 against tanks when I should not in my KV1S because other tankers don't think about the weaknesses it has they are just scared of the big alpha. Rightly so because it can definitely ruin your day but you can't be afraid to get shot especially when you are in a tank that you know you can eat 1 or 2 shots from it since most of those tanks have better reload times and will outdo it in dpm. 

 

It is almost the same when I see someone back off the KV2 when I know it just shot and has that long reload. I practically have to scream at people to get up there and kill it before it reloads. Obviously this doesn't apply in every situation and you need to vary your tactics depending on the battlefield. I don't see a problem with the KV1s personally. Higher tier tanks it faces can give it hell but it at least has teeth. Some tanks are pretty much sol when thrust into higher tiers. I don't feel it should be that way. The thin armor of the KV1S means that every tank it could face can potentially penetrate it and therefore eliminate it as a threat. They may pay the price of course for facing off with it but isn't that the point of risk/reward.



RagnarokBazil #38 Posted Jan 19 2014 - 16:51

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View Postiron_crosstx, on Jan 17 2014 - 20:47, said:

you wouldent like me in my kv-2, i got the BIGGER derp gun on it, and with my crew skills and equipment, i get a 12 second reload, almost what i have on my kv-1s and i have 1 shot a tiger in it.

 

Bull... i have a kv2 gun rammer and vents its 20 secs reload.. Kv2 isent a kv1s its easy pened by everything... Kv1s isent.. that trucker has a 8 second reload.. Slam this lier into oblivion.



RagnarokBazil #39 Posted Jan 19 2014 - 16:56

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View PostRogueZebra, on Jan 18 2014 - 23:53, said:

I have been outgunned more than a few times by other tier 6 heavies especially when I am by myself but that is a different story altogether. Yes people cry because the alpha is high and it has good speed and mobility however it is often out gunned by drivers that know their tanks. I may have the alpha but when you can out pace me with your dpm and mobility I have to hope you want to play peek a boom because that is how I win. My armor is not very good for tier 6 but if angled properly it can bounce and the tracks can eat shots but then you run the risk of getting perma tracked by what you are trying to prey on and you get flanked by others. I regularly win 1 vs 1 against tanks when I should not in my KV1S because other tankers don't think about the weaknesses it has they are just scared of the big alpha. Rightly so because it can definitely ruin your day but you can't be afraid to get shot especially when you are in a tank that you know you can eat 1 or 2 shots from it since most of those tanks have better reload times and will outdo it in dpm. 

 

It is almost the same when I see someone back off the KV2 when I know it just shot and has that long reload. I practically have to scream at people to get up there and kill it before it reloads. Obviously this doesn't apply in every situation and you need to vary your tactics depending on the battlefield. I don't see a problem with the KV1s personally. Higher tier tanks it faces can give it hell but it at least has teeth. Some tanks are pretty much sol when thrust into higher tiers. I don't feel it should be that way. The thin armor of the KV1S means that every tank it could face can potentially penetrate it and therefore eliminate it as a threat. They may pay the price of course for facing off with it but isn't that the point of risk/reward.

 

when i shoot i wait 10 secs then roll out foward again making people think i reloaded.. its a funny act i pull.. also my 2nd skill is the kv2s camo xD i love everyones fear in the face when they suddenly are getting derped 280 meters away without understanding where ths hell am i xD a side note im in a bush 100% x6 and a 5% camo bonus from paint camo. it stacks xD that means 35% camo rating ftw!!!



RagnarokBazil #40 Posted Jan 19 2014 - 16:58

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View Postesdren, on Jan 18 2014 - 02:21, said:

and since I know that Ill never convince some people, I now bow out.  Enjoy your troll tank while it lasts

 

 

KV1S needs tge nerf so other tanks can be played. in companys just like the coming TD nerf and Heavy nerf thats coming ^^






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