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Top 5 German Tanks of World War II

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xthetenth #881 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 17:19

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View PostChepicoro, on Feb 21 2014 - 08:54, said:

No one on this thread said germans tanks were the best with any design faults. They had their share of failures... but make statements like "All german tanks were crap" is simply not correct and is heavily biased.

 

Otherwise is not possible to explain why the allied forces needed 6 years and huge human and material resources to defeat crap tanks. Of course there are a lot of factors, but the fact is allied forces need to outproduce germans in order to defeat them.

Germany started the war with a monopoly on well organized forces with a doctrine compatible with the realities of the era's warfare. That they achieved so much in the first two years of the war is because of this. Despite this huge advantage it took three years, not hugely more time, to utterly destroy German armed might despite the German military being reasonably capable. A lot of the reason for portraying the Germans as so advanced and skillful was to excuse Allied failures at the start of WWI.



IronWolfV #882 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 17:20

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View PostPlaidPony, on Feb 21 2014 - 11:18, said:

 

I meant East like island-hopping East, not the Eastern front. Sorry it was unclear, it was just a thought since we were comparing the Panther and Sherman.

My mistake.  In the island hopping campaign, even the vaunted sherman had a hell of a time fighting out in the pacific if that is what you are referring to.  Panther, freaking nightmare I would assume.  Panther was a good tank designed for good terrain. Bad terrain, not so much. And like I said, even shermans had a tough time with many terrains in the pacific.



balmung60 #883 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 17:29

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View PostKanzler_Bismarck, on Feb 21 2014 - 08:56, said:

All of them, Germans made the best tanks in WWII. Pound for pound all other tanks were toys.

Pound for pound is probably the least favorable way to measure German tanks (especially post-1942 designs).  The Panther (~45 tonnes) and Tiger (~57 tonnes) are not exactly light vehicles, weighing between 1.5 and 2 times as much as the Allied tanks they're usually compared to (depending on if the Allied vehicle in question is a T-34 (~28 tonnes, ~33 tonnes for the T-34-85) or an M4 (~30 tonnes) and if the German tank in question is a Panther or Tiger).  So if you're actually measuring them pound for pound in comparison to their most common opponents, you have to discount their performance between 33% and 50% to account for their additional weight.

 

Furthermore, if you're going to talk pound for pound, remember that the T-44 weighed about the same as a T-34-85, had thicker armor than the Panther from the front and sides (and the same from the rear), a better sloped front, a better gun, a smaller profile, and better reliability.  Also, the IS-2 was only about 1 ton heavier and had thicker armor from all sides and a much more powerful gun and better reliability.  And the Pershing ALSO had better all-around armor and a more powerful gun at a lower weight.

 

What I'm getting at is that the "big cats" are really overweight and made poor use of that weight.

View PostLVT4, on Feb 21 2014 - 07:57, said:

Tiger chassis, Panther chassis, Pz.4 chassis, and almost every other German chassis.

The Germans were masters at finding new uses for there out of date tank designs.

The Soviets did that, too.  They also did it with captured tanks.  See: SU-76, SU-85, SU-100, (I)SU-152, SU-76i, SU-85i, and several others.



PlaidPony #884 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 17:41

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I seriously don't understand how anyone can think the Germans had the best tank designers in the war. The Soviets had the T-44 and IS-3 in mass production before the war had even ended, with T-54 prototypes successfully completed. It wasn't even close.

IronWolfV #885 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 17:46

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View PostPlaidPony, on Feb 21 2014 - 11:41, said:

I seriously don't understand how anyone can think the Germans had the best tank designers in the war. The Soviets had the T-44 and IS-3 in mass production before the war had even ended, with T-54 prototypes successfully completed. It wasn't even close.

However Russia had some advantages Germany didn't.  Russia wasn't the subject of a round the clock by the end of the war strategic level bombing that basically wrecked many of the German factories and production plants.By the time those tanks you are referring to came about, it was a minor miracle that Germany was producing hell anything!

 

Subject Russia to the same kind of strategic bombing almost around the clock, doubt those tanks would of been come up with or produced at all, or very well, like some other german tanks we can name.

 

Though german engineering didn't do too good of a job of making these tanks easy to maintain.



CavScout19D #886 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 17:49

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View PostChepicoro, on Feb 21 2014 - 05:54, said:

Otherwise is not possible to explain why the allied forces needed 6 years and huge human and material resources to defeat crap tanks. Of course there are a lot of factors, but the fact is allied forces need to outproduce germans in order to defeat them.

Or, you know its hard to invade and doubly hard for those who had to do it across vast oceans. If how long to defeat an enemy indicates the relative strength of their war weapons, then the Soviets must have been godly because even with 100 years the Germans wouldn't have defeated them.



locoace1 #887 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 17:50

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View PostTalonV, on Feb 21 2014 - 08:46, said:

However Russia had some advantages Germany didn't.  Russia wasn't the subject of a round the clock by the end of the war strategic level bombing that basically wrecked many of the German factories and production plants.By the time those tanks you are referring to came about, it was a minor miracle that Germany was producing hell anything!

 

Subject Russia to the same kind of strategic bombing almost around the clock, doubt those tanks would of been come up with or produced at all, or very well, like some other german tanks we can name.

 

Though german engineering didn't do too good of a job of making these tanks easy to maintain.

 

 

Yeah, if only Germany didn't lose the war, maybe they wouldn't be producing almost nothing. It's almost as if their poor tank designs and military blunders were somehow related to the war's loss.



IronWolfV #888 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 17:51

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View PostCavScout19D, on Feb 21 2014 - 11:49, said:

Or, you know its hard to invade and doubly hard for those who had to do it across vast oceans. If how long to defeat an enemy indicates the relative strength of their war weapons, then the Soviets must have been godly because even with 100 years the Germans wouldn't have defeated them.

naa just old man winter.  Best russian soldier ever. Stopped Napoleon and it stoped Nazi Germany.



IronWolfV #889 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 17:52

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View Postlocoace1, on Feb 21 2014 - 11:50, said:

 

 

Yeah, if only Germany didn't lose the war, maybe they wouldn't be producing almost nothing. It's almost as if their poor tank designs and military blunders were somehow related to the war's loss.

That's such a loaded reply.  Frankly Germany did so many things wrong it's not even funny.  Like Barberosa...total screw up IMHO.



Iskveda #890 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 17:52

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View PostTalonV, on Feb 21 2014 - 11:13, said:

IIRC Panthers were used on the Eastern front. Atleast I thought they were.  How they did?  Beats me, but considering the Easter Stepps are prime tank country, I think they probably did better than the Hedgerows.  But again this is just a WAG.

 

I think, given the reference to Indochina, that Plaid is referring to the Far East, like China, the Pacific islands, and South East Asia



locoace1 #891 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 17:53

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View PostTalonV, on Feb 21 2014 - 08:51, said:

naa just old man winter.  Best russian soldier ever. Stopped Napoleon and it stoped Nazi Germany.

 

Russian Soldiers, you're forgetting those. unless you subscribe to the whole NKVD shooting millions of conscripts as they rush proud german defenders with clubs since they never had bullets in russia.



IronWolfV #892 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 17:53

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View PostIskveda, on Feb 21 2014 - 11:52, said:

 

I think, given the reference to Indochina, that Plaid is referring to the Far East, like China, the Pacific islands, and South East Asia

Indeed, he already cleared that up and I actually responded to it.



IronWolfV #893 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 17:54

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View Postlocoace1, on Feb 21 2014 - 11:53, said:

 

Russian Soldiers, you're forgetting those. unless you subscribe to the whole NKVD shooting millions of conscripts as they rush proud german defenders with clubs since they never had bullets in russia.

Well russian soldiers too, but all they really did was just slow the assault down and give ground till the winter caught up to the germans then counter attacked.



locoace1 #894 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 17:57

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View PostTalonV, on Feb 21 2014 - 08:54, said:

Well russian soldiers too, but all they really did was just slow the assault down and give ground till the winter caught up to the germans then counter attacked.

The Russians were at their lowest, but not completely unprepared. had the germans started a few months, they would have been stopped at the Stalin line (still mostly there), and held up until winter. If you think your troops will just step over russian corpses who died by looking at the ubermensch soldiers and not prepare for the winter just in case. Then you're a completely idiot who succumbed to your own propaganda.



CavScout19D #895 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 17:59

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View PostPlaidPony, on Feb 21 2014 - 08:41, said:

I seriously don't understand how anyone can think the Germans had the best tank designers in the war. The Soviets had the T-44 and IS-3 in mass production before the war had even ended, with T-54 prototypes successfully completed. It wasn't even close.

Pop history is the reason. Heck, even many games (be they board games or video) over-value German tank capabilities. 



CavScout19D #896 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 18:00

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View PostTalonV, on Feb 21 2014 - 08:46, said:

View PostPlaidPony, on Feb 21 2014 - 11:41, said:

I seriously don't understand how anyone can think the Germans had the best tank designers in the war. The Soviets had the T-44 and IS-3 in mass production before the war had even ended, with T-54 prototypes successfully completed. It wasn't even close.

However Russia had some advantages Germany didn't.  Russia wasn't the subject of a round the clock by the end of the war strategic level bombing that basically wrecked many of the German factories and production plants.By the time those tanks you are referring to came about, it was a minor miracle that Germany was producing hell anything!

 

Subject Russia to the same kind of strategic bombing almost around the clock, doubt those tanks would of been come up with or produced at all, or very well, like some other german tanks we can name.

 

Though german engineering didn't do too good of a job of making these tanks easy to maintain.

And Germany had advantages over every nation they did beat.... 



CavScout19D #897 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 18:01

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View PostTalonV, on Feb 21 2014 - 08:51, said:

View PostCavScout19D, on Feb 21 2014 - 11:49, said:

Or, you know its hard to invade and doubly hard for those who had to do it across vast oceans. If how long to defeat an enemy indicates the relative strength of their war weapons, then the Soviets must have been godly because even with 100 years the Germans wouldn't have defeated them.

naa just old man winter.  Best russian soldier ever. Stopped Napoleon and it stoped Nazi Germany.

The Soviets had to fight in the same winter.



PlaidPony #898 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 18:01

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View PostTalonV, on Feb 21 2014 - 16:46, said:

However Russia had some advantages Germany didn't.  Russia wasn't the subject of a round the clock by the end of the war strategic level bombing that basically wrecked many of the German factories and production plants.By the time those tanks you are referring to came about, it was a minor miracle that Germany was producing hell anything!

 

Subject Russia to the same kind of strategic bombing almost around the clock, doubt those tanks would of been come up with or produced at all, or very well, like some other german tanks we can name.

 

Though german engineering didn't do too good of a job of making these tanks easy to maintain.

 

That doesn't change the fact that as the war progressed Soviet designs became better in every way without sacrificing weight or simplicity, while the Germans were chasing boondoggles all the way up to the end. The situation in Germany was hardly a disaster in 1942, which is when the problems started.



lostwingman #899 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 19:39

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View PostN00berwaffles, on Feb 21 2014 - 09:07, said:

 The Chinese fought the longest of the allies, 37-45. The Japanese also surrendered after the Germans. Obviously the Japanese lasted longer because of their outstanding  tank designs. :sceptic:


The Chinese were fighting themselves at the same time. Not like the USSR was a half dozen different states all fighting each other AND the Germans.

 

 



cashdash #900 Posted Feb 21 2014 - 19:45

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View PostCavScout19D, on Feb 21 2014 - 11:59, said:

Pop history is the reason. Heck, even many games (be they board games or video) over-value German tank capabilities. 

 

to refer to one of my favorite sources for pop history WW2, in one mission of CoD: World at War you play as a Russian soldier fighting at Selow Heights, you have to steal a panzerschreck off a dead German soldier(what he has it for i don't know you don't have any tank support)and use it to kill what appear to be Pz IVs. it takes two shots per tank to kill.....

 

conversely on another mission you play as a US marine using a Bazooka to kill Japanese tanks, it takes one shot per tank.

 

 

EDIT: also Japan invaded Manchuria in 1931, they were still fighting in Manchuria when they invaded China in 1933, given that China and Japan didn't stop fighting until the Japanese surrender in 1945, WW2 was fought for 14 years. could be getting details mixed up but that statement should be more or less true.


Edited by cashdash, Feb 21 2014 - 19:50.






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