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Tobruk


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TimiBoy #41 Posted Apr 26 2014 - 22:33

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Proud Aussie right here. Thanks for not bypassing us like McArthur did.

As the Germans learned, no one in their right mind screws with Aussies.

rivit #42 Posted Apr 27 2014 - 01:02

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I've been following the exploits of the 2/6th Cavalry in the first capture of Tobruk in January 1941. It looks like they used a few M13s or M11/39s (that didn't break down in route) to fire on defensive posts, while the carriers rushed in with Infantry and finished them off. Some of the 2/6th Cavalry tanks or carriers look like they were fired on from the guns belonging to the San Giorgio. Later we have the picture of the kangaroo tanks sitting on the beach. I also read something about them assisting in prisoner round up and excepting the surrender of the Italian Admiral in charge of Tobruk.

Edited by rivit, Apr 27 2014 - 02:03.


chainer2150 #43 Posted Apr 27 2014 - 01:42

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As a Brit, its always a pleasure to hear of the commonwealth and how we fought together despite all differences. I think its shameful we don't all revere our servicemen and women, those past and present in the same way, they all deserve it. While games such as world of tanks will never do true justice to this, I'm glad its mentioned. I'm also very happy to see the chieftain writing these articles for awareness for those who don't know, and further inform others. 

rivit #44 Posted Apr 27 2014 - 02:25

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Interesting, one Australian kangaroo tank and some carriers vs  M11/39s and CV 33s  dug in as bunkers.

 

Osprey's Operation Compass 1940: Wavell's Whirlwind Offensive, Jon Latimer

pg.63

"A troop of 6 Cav with carriers and one tank (M13/40) was leading 2/8 Bn when they came under fierce fire. It soon became apparent that this came from ten stationary tanks that had been dug in."

 

Probably from Rabbit or Wombat squadron,since they each had 2 M13/40s and several carriers. Ringo squadron had one M11/39 and five M13/40s. 



Zinegata #45 Posted Apr 27 2014 - 02:40

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The excellent performance of the Australians at the first siege of Tobruk really brings into question why the South Africans surrendered so quickly in the aftermath of Gazala - a topic never really looked into much.



Shadow4lpha #46 Posted Apr 27 2014 - 02:55

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Heh I actually lived in Tripoli for 13 years of my life

Midna1 #47 Posted Apr 27 2014 - 03:26

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if there's gonna be a historical battle for tobruk they're gonna need to buff the pen of the panzer III's 50mm gun cause the matildas are just going slaughter them

Peaky_Blinder #48 Posted Apr 27 2014 - 03:50

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Give me 2 Australian divisions and I will conquer the world.
  • Said by Rommel to Adolf Hitler. Battle of Tobruk


Diamond_Booty #49 Posted Apr 27 2014 - 03:52

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...

The_Chieftain #50 Posted Apr 27 2014 - 05:59

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View PostZinegata, on Apr 27 2014 - 02:40, said:

The excellent performance of the Australians at the first siege of Tobruk really brings into question why the South Africans surrendered so quickly in the aftermath of Gazala - a topic never really looked into much.

 

There were a couple of differneces. For starters, the various defences had grown decripit in the intervening time, they weren't in as good a shape as they were when the Aussies took over. The South Africans were, if memory serves, also given less time to prepare, and finally, the Axis were under no disilluions about the potential trouble it would make if they didn't plan things right. I think the South Africans got handed a bit of a bum deal in comparison.



6thGuardArmy #51 Posted Apr 27 2014 - 06:50

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View PostZinegata, on Apr 27 2014 - 01:40, said:

The excellent performance of the Australians at the first siege of Tobruk really brings into question why the South Africans surrendered so quickly in the aftermath of Gazala - a topic never really looked into much.

I have. Apparently the South African forces were desperatly low on ammunition and anti-tank guns. "And he knew the true state of Tobruk's defences. These had been neglected because the Eight Army had not expected to have to retreat again after the gains made at the end of 1941." Quoted from Springboks,Troepies amd Cadres stories of the South African Army. It still came as a shock to the troops that Klopper surrendered so quickly though. "The South African troops were shocked by the word of the surrender order. They have done very little fighting, yet were being told to destroy their equipment to prevent it falling into enemy hands." 

Hope this helped



Kyphe #52 Posted Apr 27 2014 - 07:00

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Axis must have had ample APCR rounds at that time as the 50L60 and the 47mm M35 would have struggled to damage a Matilda 2 without them.

 

No wonder RTR were surprised
 



Guy4123 #53 Posted Apr 27 2014 - 08:44

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Probably gonna be one of the few historic battles where everyone won't want to play Germany instead. Matilda power will reign supreme! 



SourKraut13 #54 Posted Apr 27 2014 - 11:31

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View PostPotoroo, on Apr 26 2014 - 11:00, said:

 

Our allies didn't hate us that much.


Oops! I meant Would Not. I'll fix it, thanks for the catch.



bluddnut #55 Posted Apr 27 2014 - 11:33

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Great article Chief, respect mate!

 

As a postscript, the reputation earned by the "Magnificent Ninth", paid off for Monty during the El Alamein offensive. As the opening move, the Ninth attacked along the coastal route in the north thus convincing Rommel that this was the main effort attack (as he thought the Ninth were the best troops Monty had). As a result of the successful Aussie attack, they drew out and committed Rommel's panzer reserves early and in the wrong location for the main attack when it came further south! 

 

Cheers bludd



rivit #56 Posted Apr 27 2014 - 22:03

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View PostZinegata, on Apr 26 2014 - 21:40, said:

The excellent performance of the Australians at the first siege of Tobruk really brings into question why the South Africans surrendered so quickly in the aftermath of Gazala - a topic never really looked into much.

Some say the Achilles heel to the Tobruk perimeter was the vulnerable southeast sector. In that sector, the terrain leading to the perimeter was flat and allowed enemy forces to concentrate and move up close at night. During the siege, Streich suggested attacking from there, after scoping out the area with a reconnaissance patrol, only to have Rommel smart off because he was still peeved about some earlier confrontations.

 

"I don't want to hear any ideas from you - I just want to hear how you intend to put my plan into effect." - Rommel to Streich

 

As already mentioned, some of the other reasons include:

1. Anti tank ditches that weren't maintained. The desert winds would fill them in over time.

"... anti tank ditches that wouldn't be able to stop a garden roller" 

2. Mines that had been removed and placed elsewhere. 

3. IIRC, some landline had been removed and caused severe communication breakdowns.    



FCPTJoe #57 Posted Apr 28 2014 - 01:34

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I have always loved the battles of the Western Desert. The battles for Tobruk, Halfaya Pass and such have long been my favorites.  I am very much looking forward to these great early war battles!

Potoroo #58 Posted Apr 28 2014 - 03:25

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View PostVariaVespasa, on Apr 27 2014 - 07:11, said:

I still have Tobruk.  Never played it much though due to lack of people to play with and a preference for Squad Leader.  I did learn (if in fact their charts bear any resemblance to reality...) that there can be such a thing as too much power- While most guns would have the usual effect or lack of effect that you would expect, the german 88's so badly overmatched the armor of their targets they could go right through it without damaging anything, where a lesser shell would destroy the target.  :P  The odds of a clean through and through were not that high (usually a crewman or two would be injured/killed), but the chances were more than negligible.  

 

Respect.



Wabbit_Punch #59 Posted Apr 28 2014 - 09:39

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Thanks for the article, my mothers brother was killed at Tobruk defending outpost R29 (I think it was) on the 17th of May 1941. He was reported "Missing in Action" and it was only 12 or so years ago that witness accounts of his death came to light, turned out he was hit by an anti-tank shell. The British tanks were also mentioned, apparently the Australian infantry tried to get their attention by banging on the sides of the tanks with their rifle butts not knowing that there was a buzzer on the outside of the tank for that purpose as they had never trained with the tanks.

 

Lest We Forget.



VariaVespasa #60 Posted Apr 28 2014 - 10:23

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View Postsentrydog17, on Apr 27 2014 - 04:26, said:

if there's gonna be a historical battle for tobruk they're gonna need to buff the pen of the panzer III's 50mm gun cause the matildas are just going slaughter them

Ayup, that was a problem in the boardgame too.  You had to somehow get on their flanks or lure them to the 88's.






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