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Higher Skilled Players Like Artillery Less - Confirmed, But Why?

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Staz211 #1641 Posted Nov 06 2018 - 00:28

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View Post_Kradok_, on Nov 05 2018 - 10:50, said:

 

I agree to disagree.  The team dynamic outweighs the 1v1 in the eyes of the game IMO.  Proof?  It's 15v15 in pubs.  Not 1v1 --  not solo-intended.  It's a team-driven perspective.

 

As for the mechanic, it's been in the game since the inception, regardless of the gyrations.  So the 'mechanic' itself being wrong/broken isn't the opinion of those who created the game to begin with.  I see the recent changes with the crap-stun effect as a result of complaints about being one-shot.  I get that.  BUT I never asked for, nor supported the damn stun crap as it is, and am forced to deal with it, or find a new game I can be addicted to. 

 

I believe whining about arty got us what arty is today.  I didn't ask for it, but I still play their game - their way... 

 

For me, limit it to 2 per match, lower the ability to one-shot MOST tanks, get rid of the stun and give me a little more low-end alpha.  Incessantly complaining about it seems akin to pissing into a fan.

 

View Postskytale, on Nov 05 2018 - 12:29, said:

 

Arty is a flawed PvP game mechanic. But I believe WG designed this as a Team vs Team game. I do not believe arty is a flawed game mechanic in a Team vs Team game. Different classes have different capabilities that when played as a team makes the team stronger than a group of individual tanks. With all the tweaks and overhauls WG has done to arty, one thing that has not changed. The ability to damage and/or degrade the enemy from long range. Both teams have this ability. Therefore it is fair at a team level.

 

I believe that most of the arty hate come from people not liking what arty has done to them as an individual, not caring that their team has arty doing the same thing to the enemy or appreciating that their teams arty can help the team succeed.

 

It may not be how one wants the game to be, but it is how the game is designed. It also does not matter how long one has played the game or his/her success in the game. That does not change the game design. I have lots of changes I'd love to make, but I play the game as it is and I do not denigrate those that play their own style. As long as one plays within rules, the tank one plays and how one plays it is up to them.               

 

If I may ask, why do you guys seem to believe that PvP is restricted to 1v1? Most PvP games are team based. PvP has nothing to do with the number of players involved, but rather with setting up players to interact with, and directly oppose, eachother. 

 

Just think of games like World of Warcraft, or almost any online FPS shooter. PvP is team based, not 1v1. As such, the mechanics are balanced around human players interacting with one another; human players playing off one another. Unlike PvE, the interaction has to be balanced around those doing and those receiving, not just those doing. The interaction goes two ways, not one way. There are things you can do/put into a PvE game that shouldn't be in a PvP game because the interaction is one way; the acted upon is a computer, and all that must be considered is the enjoyment of the human player. 

 

In PvP games the interaction is two ways, and everything must be considered with regards to the actor and the acted upon. Every mechanic and interaction needs to be balanced so as to produce a competitive, "fair" player Vs player interaction. As a general rule, if something can be done, it must be able to be effectively countered. 

 

The issue, as people like myself and Guido argue, is that arty exists largely above the combat framework every other vehicle in the game abaides by, not within it. It exists above the plane of player Vs player interaction; it's essentially a PvE experience and mechanic inserted into a PvP game. It treats other human players as PvE assets; as AI, essentially, rather than other human players to be competed against and outplayed. 



Guido1212 #1642 Posted Nov 06 2018 - 00:30

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View Post_Kradok_, on Nov 05 2018 - 15:50, said:

 

I agree to disagree.  The team dynamic outweighs the 1v1 in the eyes of the game IMO.  Proof?  It's 15v15 in pubs.  Not 1v1 --  not solo-intended.  It's a team-driven perspective.

 

As for the mechanic, it's been in the game since the inception, regardless of the gyrations.  So the 'mechanic' itself being wrong/broken isn't the opinion of those who created the game to begin with.  I see the recent changes with the crap-stun effect as a result of complaints about being one-shot.  I get that.  BUT I never asked for, nor supported the damn stun crap as it is, and am forced to deal with it, or find a new game I can be addicted to. 

 

I believe whining about arty got us what arty is today.  I didn't ask for it, but I still play their game - their way... 

 

For me, limit it to 2 per match, lower the ability to one-shot MOST tanks, get rid of the stun and give me a little more low-end alpha.  Incessantly complaining about it seems akin to pissing into a fan.

Why is there a constant drum beat about whining?  When people don’t like something they tend to mention it.  When they don’t like it at all, they mention it even more.

 

Arty is an incredibly controversial and disliked game mechanic.  That’s just a fact.  It’s been changed multiple times.  Each change has failed, miserably.

 

Why?

 

The base game mechanic is inherently flawed in a PvP game.  Casuals and bad players will love it because it gives outsized effects for a given effort.  Good players will hate it for the same reason.  It’s bad for the game, always has been.  This whole 82 page thread is about all the proof you need.  The title basically sums it up.

 

But it’s not going anywhere of course, too many people invested in it and the company has hitched its wagon to it long ago.

 

I do think there is a more reasonable fix though.  Arty needs to be threatened earlier and more effectively.  Several options there but beyond the scope of this debate.



Guido1212 #1643 Posted Nov 06 2018 - 00:32

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View PostStaz211, on Nov 05 2018 - 23:28, said:

 

 

If I may ask, why do you guys seem to believe that PvP is restricted to 1v1? Most PvP games are team based. PvP has nothing to do with the number of players involved, but rather with setting up players to interact with, and directly oppose, eachother. 

 

Just think of games like World of Warcraft, or almost any online FPS shooter. PvP is team based, not 1v1. As such, the mechanics are balanced around human players interacting with one another; human players playing off one another. Unlike PvE, the interaction has to be balanced around those doing and those receiving, not just those doing. The interaction goes two ways, not one way. There are things you can do/put into a PvE game that shouldn't be in a PvP game because the interaction is one way; the acted upon is a computer, and all that must be considered is the enjoyment of the human player. 

 

In PvP games the interaction is two ways, and everything must be considered with regards to the actor and the acted upon. Every mechanic and interaction needs to be balanced so as to produce a competitive, "fair" player Vs player interaction. As a general rule, if something can be done, it must be able to be effectively countered. 

 

The issue, as people like myself and Guido argue, is that arty exists largely above the combat framework every other vehicle in the game abaides by, not within it. It exists above the plane of player Vs player interaction; it's essentially a PvE experience and mechanic inserted into a PvP game. It treats other human players as PvE assets; as AI, essentially, rather than other human players to be competed against and outplayed. 

The last paragraph is very insightful.



Staz211 #1644 Posted Nov 06 2018 - 00:42

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View PostGuido1212, on Nov 05 2018 - 18:32, said:

The last paragraph is very insightful.

 

I broke it down further in my original thread on the issue. 

 

http://forum.worldof...__fromsearch__1



Kelly_Sereda #1645 Posted Nov 06 2018 - 00:56

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View PostStaz211, on Nov 06 2018 - 00:28, said:

 

 

If I may ask, why do you guys seem to believe that PvP is restricted to 1v1? Most PvP games are team based. PvP has nothing to do with the number of players involved, but rather with setting up players to interact with, and directly oppose, eachother.

 

Just think of games like World of Warcraft, or almost any online FPS shooter. PvP is team based, not 1v1. As such, the mechanics are balanced around human players interacting with one another; human players playing off one another. Unlike PvE, the interaction has to be balanced around those doing and those receiving, not just those doing. The interaction goes two ways, not one way. There are things you can do/put into a PvE game that shouldn't be in a PvP game because the interaction is one way; the acted upon is a computer, and all that must be considered is the enjoyment of the human player.

 

In PvP games the interaction is two ways, and everything must be considered with regards to the actor and the acted upon. Every mechanic and interaction needs to be balanced so as to produce a competitive, "fair" player Vs player interaction. As a general rule, if something can be done, it must be able to be effectively countered.

 

The issue, as people like myself and Guido argue, is that arty exists largely above the combat framework every other vehicle in the game abaides by, not within it. It exists above the plane of player Vs player interaction; it's essentially a PvE experience and mechanic inserted into a PvP game. It treats other human players as PvE assets; as AI, essentially, rather than other human players to be competed against and outplayed.

 

Your observation of the mechanic being a PvE style add-on to a PvP game rings true with me.  I've always felt like the game needs indirect fire, but it feels so frustrating to play and play against current arty.  Does anyone remember Battlefield 1942?  The tank shots were really, really 'droopy'.  Long shots all had not only to be aimed to lead your target, but also to account for bullet drop.  Of course, it was exaggerated quite wildly compared to 'real life', but lobbing shots arty style was possible, one could get fairly good at it, anyone could do it and it was pretty fun.


 

If you exaggerated bullet drop on slower muzzle velocity guns so that reaching your target at distance required some angling, it would change a lot of things for the better, I think, including direct fire SPGs, indirect fire from regular tanks with derpy guns and the ability to theoretically return arty fire.  No drone mode, but perhaps in order to simulate coordinates being delivered, a one-off auto-aim by clicking on the mini-map.  It would be harder to hit, guns would do their real damage with real rates of fire and any guns capable of a high enough firing arc with derpy enough muzzle velocity to land in the map could do it.


 


 


 



Hurk #1646 Posted Nov 06 2018 - 00:57

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arty is no different than the asymmetric aspects that every other PVP arena game has. they exist because they are a middle ground. 

arty is not low input for high output. instead, its a moderate skill input for a moderate to low result, with a rare chance at a higher result.

 

in almost every case, its far better to play a normal tank in the same situation and get better results, even from the same input effort. 

 

what people tend to ignore is that arty in the back may be able to farm some limited amount of damage that may or may not impact the game, but the same is true for being a tank forward in inept hands and soaking shots for your team that may or may not impact the game. 

and then of course the derp tanks, that are every bit as capable as arty at dealing damage that "cannot be avoided", yet still also take hits, etc. 

 

arty is the most commonly one shot tank in game, and it no longer one shots enemy tanks any more than other tanks can. nevermind "direct hits" like a few days ago... where i hit a batchat 25 for 46 damage. 



1SLUGGO1 #1647 Posted Nov 06 2018 - 01:27

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View PostStaz211, on Nov 05 2018 - 18:28, said:

 

 

If I may ask, why do you guys seem to believe that PvP is restricted to 1v1? Most PvP games are team based. PvP has nothing to do with the number of players involved, but rather with setting up players to interact with, and directly oppose, eachother. 

 

Just think of games like World of Warcraft, or almost any online FPS shooter. PvP is team based, not 1v1. As such, the mechanics are balanced around human players interacting with one another; human players playing off one another. Unlike PvE, the interaction has to be balanced around those doing and those receiving, not just those doing. The interaction goes two ways, not one way. There are things you can do/put into a PvE game that shouldn't be in a PvP game because the interaction is one way; the acted upon is a computer, and all that must be considered is the enjoyment of the human player. 

 

In PvP games the interaction is two ways, and everything must be considered with regards to the actor and the acted upon. Every mechanic and interaction needs to be balanced so as to produce a competitive, "fair" player Vs player interaction. As a general rule, if something can be done, it must be able to be effectively countered. 

 

The issue, as people like myself and Guido argue, is that arty exists largely above the combat framework every other vehicle in the game abaides by, not within it. It exists above the plane of player Vs player interaction; it's essentially a PvE experience and mechanic inserted into a PvP game. It treats other human players as PvE assets; as AI, essentially, rather than other human players to be competed against and outplayed. 

 

 

What class in World of Warcraft can attack you without retribution from across the pvp map?



Staz211 #1648 Posted Nov 06 2018 - 01:28

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View Post1SLUGGO1, on Nov 05 2018 - 19:27, said:

 

 

What class in World of Warcraft can attack you without retribution from across the pvp map?

 

Exactly. That's part of my point. 

Hurk #1649 Posted Nov 06 2018 - 02:57

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View Post1SLUGGO1, on Nov 05 2018 - 17:27, said:

What class in World of Warcraft can attack you without retribution from across the pvp map?

almost all of them via buffs? 



earthman34 #1650 Posted Nov 06 2018 - 05:50

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View PostWhineMaker, on Nov 05 2018 - 00:28, said:

They just have a difficult time, dealing with the fact, a deep red 'mater player can delete them so easily... :ohmy:

 

That is utter nonsense. A bad player is twice as bad in artillery. Deep red players don't have skilled crews, tricked out vehicles, or any clue what they're doing. They don't understand physics, the game mechanics, and I wonder sometimes if they even know how to get into artillery mode, since I see them driving to the front line a lot trying to shotgun people...



earthman34 #1651 Posted Nov 06 2018 - 05:58

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View Post_Kradok_, on Nov 05 2018 - 07:56, said:

Whoa ….and he can't reach a 1500 wn8 in either of them? 

 

I'm confused now...:sceptic:

 

Trust me, getting over 1200 in any artillery is challenging these days. They've never fixed how WN8 works with artillery.





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