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No such thing as "Kill Steal..."


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Magick #1 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 08:37

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It's early and I'm half asleep as I type this, but I want to get this point out in the hopes that new players can better understand the nuances of the game and the differences between WoT and other "shooter" type games.  In particular the fact that whining, complaining, screaming or all out yelling "kill steal" doesn't make you look any good.  In fact, it makes you look like a total moron or a whiny brat, and here's why.

First let me explain for those that don't know what KS or Kill Steal means.  KS comes from back in the day when on some games (in particular Everquest*) the person that "killed" the mob or enemy, was the one that got the credit and experience for it.  Later on, as games like Counterstrike and other FPS games came around, a kind of tally of "kills" became popular.  Now these kills didn't mean anything, since you didn't get experience or anything from them.  Maybe you'd go up in "rank" as Quake 2 had happen, but other than that it really didn't change your gaming experience.  Instead the higher kills you had was seen as an ego boost. A way of saying "I'm better than you."  Today this would be to "pwn" or "own" someone, but the fact remains that it's just a way of suggesting that one person is better than the other.

Many young gamers, coming into WoT from the various websites, come here with the whole "halo" mentality as a friend of mine calls it.  This mentality is one of "though I am on a team, I must still get more kills to prove I'm better than everyone else."  It's what you could say is a kind of lone wolf within a team.  We've all seen this type before, usually in the form of a light or medium tank that goes off on its own and typically dies a very fiery death when it runs into a larger opposing force.  Not team players some would say.  It is these, who have this idea that they must best every person in single PvP combat, that will quickly scream "KS" or "Kill Steal" the moment someone else comes along and finishes off whatever they have targeted.

Let's be clear here. The person that finishes off the target, very likely has done the first person a favor.  Whether it's a more experienced player, such as a heavy or higher tier medium that takes out the target; or artillery or a tank destroyer that does it, the fact remains that this act may very well have prevented the first player (the one who would scream about a kill steal) from ending up with egg on their face.  Lest we forget, this game is based around team combat. This means that the personal kills do not matter.  Let me say that again, and bold it this time.  Personal kills DO NOT matter.  In fact, it is entirely possible for one team to win a match without killing a single enemy. So long as that team can capture the flag and prevent the other from doing it, there's nothing that would stop them.  However when it comes to combat, always remember that just because you are used to 1 on 1 personal PvP combat, does not mean that the person you are fighting is.  Your enemy will fight, and fight dirty. Meaning that they will exploit every mistake you make.  They will pull in artillery fire to slow you down, call for "danger close" (artillery to fire with a danger of hitting friendlies) or lure you into range of a tank destroyer. Meaning that what you may think is one on one, quickly becomes one on oh my god how many is that over there?

So why then do you try to limit yourself to this odd idea of "honorable" one on one combat? Why do you care how many kills you get? If in the long run it doesn't matter, as experience is awarded not on kills but on total damage and detection done, why should it matter who finishes off the tanks?  The answer sadly is ignorance.  Now don't scream at me for calling you stupid.  I'm not.  Ignorance is simply the state of not knowing any better.  That is, when we get down to it, the problem. New players are ignorant of how the game works and how best to fit.  It's not until the higher tiers that they start sorting it out, but for you low starting tiers it can get confusing.

So, after all this rambling I know some may wonder what the point is?  It's a good question, but I don't have a perfect answer for that.  I think the best I could say, is to forget about your personal achievements, forget about your personal self, and treat the first two or three tiers of gameplay as a learning experience. A kind of boot camp.  Learn to work as a fire team or in a wolfpack.  Listen to the veterans, and then when you get to a point where you've decided you know everything; take a bit of humble pie and listen some more.  Eventually you'll get to a point where it's all second nature. Then, and only then, pass on what you've learned.  It may take getting used to, relearning how to fight, but in the long run it's well worth it.


*NOTE:  Everquest started out with a system where it was possible for a person that wasn't affiliated with a group, to actually Kill a mob and steal the loot and kill from the group. From this we get the term "kill steal."  It's also where the term "Ninja" came from. In some ways, "Ninja" and Kill Steal, meant the same thing, though now that meaning has diverged.

Tao #2 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 08:42

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oh there is such a thing.  
There are people out there who go out of their way to steal a kill from someone, regardless if they could do something else to help the team.  The will hold their fire and wait until a tank which is under fire gets down low enough for them to kill with one shot.  They will hold their fire for so long that they could have fired 3 or 4 shots during that time.  They also will ignore enemies allowing them to proceed unchecked to the base, arty or other current weak spot.

sweenytodd #3 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 09:09

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View PostTao, on Apr 29 2011 - 08:42, said:

oh there is such a thing.  
There are people out there who go out of their way to steal a kill from someone, regardless if they could do something else to help the team.  The will hold their fire and wait until a tank which is under fire gets down low enough for them to kill with one shot.  They will hold their fire for so long that they could have fired 3 or 4 shots during that time.  They also will ignore enemies allowing them to proceed unchecked to the base, arty or other current weak spot.

yes you are right, and personally i dont like it when i have worked to lure an enemy to a spot where he has no support, i take him down to 3% health and then the camper behind me finally decides to shoot and take the kill

in this game kills earn you prestige (not of the xbox kind) the kind of prestige that determines how much you are respected as a player. think about it, if you have 3k games and not one top gun what will people (particularly important when joining or trying for a leadership position in a clan) think of you as a player?  and so while it may have minimal impact on your experience earned, it does affect other aspects of the game

FreeFOXMIKE #4 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 10:39

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Ok my two cents in ,yes it is a team based game,but the lead person is wrong in stating that kills don't matter you do get more "silver" and stuff for engaging enemy the bigger the better.It even states so in the hints flashed as you wait for the "battle" to start. I my self don't know how many times I have "hammered" and opponent only to get um down to 1% and wham out of the blue another hit um. <_< . But in all fairness I have seen others on my team that I felt needed help and "slammed" the enemy tank myself  :Smile-hiding: . So lets just take note it happens. In fact the Soviet tank doctrine of the 80s was to have the whole tank platoon 3-4 all engage the same target. Were as the NATO tanks had to fight on the wing man, one attacking the other covering. SO just go out and have fun ,it happens and will as long as the game is played. ;)

Dabba #5 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 11:36

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If i see an enemy tank, Unless there alreay 50 billion tanks shooting at it and i need to look elsewhere, im gonna start shooting too. I dont care who gets the killing blow. We all get points for damage, and the faster he goes down, the less shells he can put into me or an ally tank.

Diana_The_Huntress #6 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 12:09

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There is no I in TEAM.

Do I care who gets the kill after I whittle that brute down from 100% to 1%?  Nope.
One less gun firing at my team is a GOOD THING.  
I've gotten 45,000 credits and 2000+ XP without a kill in a few battles and while seeing a 4-8 next to my name might feel good,  my team winning feels even better!  :)


The Confederate medal says it all kids!

Turlagh #7 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 12:11

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A couple of days ago a team member said to me "You took my kill". I replied "You have to be kidding". He wasn't.

People who freak out over "kill stealing" DO look like morons to any one with more than a dozen brain cells.

99eagle99 #8 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 13:43

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View PostSkyCop, on Apr 29 2011 - 12:09, said:

There is no I in TEAM.

Do I care who gets the kill after I whittle that brute down from 100% to 1%?  Nope.
One less gun firing at my team is a GOOD THING.  
I've gotten 45,000 credits and 2000+ XP without a kill in a few battles and while seeing a 4-8 next to my name might feel good,  my team winning feels even better!  :)


The Confederate medal says it all kids!

Ill have to agree with SkyCop on this one because I myself just joined a day ago and already learned that it doesn't matter who gets the kill. I have had games where Ive received more points without getting any kills rather than games that i have gotten kills.

jdtherocker #9 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 13:49

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I dont mind if I lose the kill because someone shot him to finish him off I still get exp and anyways sharing is caring.

Subbota #10 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 14:56

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What do you mean there's no I in team?  You just need to look a little closer.

http://www.tshirtgal...team-tshirt.jpg

;)

I'd rather get the confederate medal than top gun.  I'm okay with ending a battle with 0 kills if I do plenty of damage and help the team to victory.

jdtherocker #11 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 14:58

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View PostSubbota, on Apr 29 2011 - 14:56, said:

What do you mean there's no I in team?  You just need to look a little closer.

http://www.tshirtgal...team-tshirt.jpg

;)

I'd rather get the confederate medal than top gun.  I'm okay with ending a battle with 0 kills if I do plenty of damage and help the team to victory.
hahah very good pic although there is an i in fail

thekalman #12 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 17:01

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Agreed. It's the same type of people who complain that arty was useless because they didn't get any kills in the game.

Magick #13 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 17:34

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View Postsweenytodd, on Apr 29 2011 - 09:09, said:

yes you are right, and personally i dont like it when i have worked to lure an enemy to a spot where he has no support, i take him down to 3% health and then the camper behind me finally decides to shoot and take the kill

in this game kills earn you prestige (not of the xbox kind) the kind of prestige that determines how much you are respected as a player. think about it, if you have 3k games and not one top gun what will people (particularly important when joining or trying for a leadership position in a clan) think of you as a player?  and so while it may have minimal impact on your experience earned, it does affect other aspects of the game


I highlighted where you're wrong in this post.  You don't get prestige based on your kills. You get prestige based on your win/loss ratio and how well you work in a team setting. Think about it like this.  If clan wars ever comes to the game (there have been some comments saying it will, some saying it won't) who do you think the clans would want?  On one hand you have someone with an average number of kills but excellent team skills, who knows how to work around others and knows their tank position and combat skills; or someone who has a high number of kills and spends their time losing situational awareness because they focus on that one single kill? I mean really who do YOU think the clans would want? I'll give you a hint here. It's not the one that has no clue what's happening around him.

That's the big picture with this. If you have lured an enemy to a spot where he has no support and are working to take him down, then you have lost situational awareness. You really don't KNOW if they don't have support.  In fact the only way you can ever be certain a tanker doesn't have support, is when he's the last guy on the map. There's always a chance he's got a heavy (as I have done in my tiger) coming to his rescue.  Situational awareness is your lifeline in battle, it's knowing not only what's going on on your own team, but what's going on around you moment to moment.  The tide of battle changes very quickly at all tiers (even the higher ones where battles seem to drag on) and what may seem like your advantage one moment, can quickly change to you being the one in trouble. If your concentration is all on this one tank you're circling trying to nickle and dime to death, Then you can't honestly say that you know what's going on around you. For all you know that heavy that this guy has been calling for help from, is coming up through the trees near you, and you are dead. Very dead and you just haven't found it out yet.  Alternatively the TD you may have just knocked out after sitting in the road for ages, may have a friend in the wings just waiting on you to make a stupid mistake. Guess what. you just made it, and that TD is going to exploit it.

I've seen it at lower tiers, as I have a handful of tanks there myself, and it seems that the same people complaining about how they keep dying all the time to artillery and tank destroyers; are the same ones complaining about kill stealing.  In every case, EVERY case their deaths came because they concentrated on that one single target and lost their situational awareness.

Oh, and for the record, talking with a few of the other clans that I know; I have yet to find one that cares about your kills. Every one I've asked have said that as I stated above, you have to be a team player and have a good win/loss ratio before they consider you.  My clan 10th Panzer is the same way. If your Win/Loss is good and you do well in team combat, you get a recruitment or accepted. Otherwise? No. That's why we have only 5 members as yet. We are that selective.

a1fox3 #14 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 17:47

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View PostFreeFOXMIKE, on Apr 29 2011 - 10:39, said:

Ok my two cents in ,yes it is a team based game,but the lead person is wrong in stating that kills don't matter you do get more "silver" and stuff for engaging enemy the bigger the better.It even states so in the hints flashed as you wait for the "battle" to start. I my self don't know how many times I have "hammered" and opponent only to get um down to 1% and wham out of the blue another hit um. <_< . But in all fairness I have seen others on my team that I felt needed help and "slammed" the enemy tank myself  :Smile-hiding: . So lets just take note it happens. In fact the Soviet tank doctrine of the 80s was to have the whole tank platoon 3-4 all engage the same target. Were as the NATO tanks had to fight on the wing man, one attacking the other covering. SO just go out and have fun ,it happens and will as long as the game is played. ;)
You are wrong here the one who does the more damage is the one who will get more XP and credits for it not the 1 who got the last 1% hit to kill it.
Kill only matter on what award and badges you get, the more you damage them the more XP and credits you will get.
Yes it is nice to not only do alot of damage and get the kill to boot.

In this game there is no kill stealer.

:Smile-izmena::Smile-izmena::Smile-izmena:

Rotorhead #15 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 17:52

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View Postsweenytodd, on Apr 29 2011 - 09:09, said:

yes you are right, and personally i dont like it when i have worked to lure an enemy to a spot where he has no support, i take him down to 3% health and then the camper behind me finally decides to shoot and take the kill

in this game kills earn you prestige (not of the xbox kind) the kind of prestige that determines how much you are respected as a player. think about it, if you have 3k games and not one top gun what will people (particularly important when joining or trying for a leadership position in a clan) think of you as a player?  and so while it may have minimal impact on your experience earned, it does affect other aspects of the game

I don't think i have ever checked the stats of another player, before or after a game. I don't even know how, now that i think of it. What prestige are you talking about? some games i kill a bunch of tanks, other games i kill none...what matters is what i can do for the TEAM... :Smile_great:

Chiyeko #16 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 18:10

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The only good hostile tank is a death hostile tank no matter how it ends up death as long as it is death.

I fire at what I can and I can damage, I expect everyone else to do the same, yes it is fun to sometimes see 6+ kills behind your name, but it is even more fun to have a nice win loss ratio and I personally am more upset when I loose a lot than when all my kills get 'stolen'.

Motorfix #17 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 18:12

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If there is a hostile target in my sights, rounds are going down range. Even if buddy is already engaged with him.

Viper69 #18 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 18:16

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No doubt, I could care less who gets the final blow on a tank. I would rather get a goose egg in kills and manage to win. Last night I was actually in a match where not a single one of our tanks was knocked out and we knocked all theirs out. I dont think I managed any kills but I still got top position in the final scores (still not sure how or what that means). The last thing people want is for this to turn into halo with treads.

WEBEUS #19 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 18:26

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I look at it a different way. if I see a tank, there is a pretty good chance that he see's me and if he see's me so does his arty. I'm not waiting around to see if someone else can finish him off. i don't know if your gunner has been killed or your gun has been disabled. Most people here welcome the help, especially if they are up against a heavy. If you read any of the tips, it also states that the heavies are there to "soften" the targets. "Soften" a target and then move on to another. your mediums can finish them off...assuming you still have some.

This is how teamwork is suppose to happen...not bickering on the battlefield about who should have gotten a kill.

SirBarnick #20 Posted Apr 29 2011 - 18:32

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View PostTao, on Apr 29 2011 - 08:42, said:

oh there is such a thing.  
There are people out there who go out of their way to steal a kill from someone, regardless if they could do something else to help the team.  The will hold their fire and wait until a tank which is under fire gets down low enough for them to kill with one shot.  They will hold their fire for so long that they could have fired 3 or 4 shots during that time.  They also will ignore enemies allowing them to proceed unchecked to the base, arty or other current weak spot.

Yes, this happens.  However, that "kill stealer" gets much less exp than the person that did all the damage.

In our clan kills are not a measure of a players worth.  In fact, the better players often have fewer kills.  Instead, they perma-track opponents so the artillery (and other team mates) have easier shots.  While getting top gun is fun, it is essentially worthless.  If somebody in a random battle wants to finish off my leftovers, more power to them.  That lets me refocus on a new target to which I can deal lots of damage.




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