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What will happen when a shell penetrated a tank ?


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kampfer91 #1 Posted May 07 2014 - 15:47

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During WW2 and nowadays :smile:

Kinda curious about it .

And pls spare me the gore part .


Edited by kampfer91, May 07 2014 - 15:47.


allantorres #2 Posted May 07 2014 - 15:54

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pew pew pew... omg, here it comes! 

ohhhh kabooom! 

****** my leg! my leg!

gzus they hit our driver in the face! omg! we are screwed!

 

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SULOMON #3 Posted May 07 2014 - 15:56

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They bailed the tank.

cwjian90 #4 Posted May 07 2014 - 15:56

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Depends on the kind of shell that hits the tank.

PajamaMan #5 Posted May 07 2014 - 15:59

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Asks what happens when a beautiful metal death dealer hits and penetrates another beautiful metal death dealer, machines designed for effective killing:

View Postkampfer91, on May 07 2014 - 10:47, said:

And pls spare me the gore part .

 


Edited by PajamaMan, May 07 2014 - 15:59.


mohawkdriver #6 Posted May 07 2014 - 16:00

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You don't want to be there...

SilkySmooth #7 Posted May 07 2014 - 16:02

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youtube! Some great videos there on what happens during tank warfare 



stormtroopercat #8 Posted May 07 2014 - 16:04

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AP- Straight through the tank with a little shrapnel, would instantly kill anyone in the path of the shell, and can also tear an arm off due to the sheer turbulance the shell creates.

HE- outside, pressure waves would crack the hull slightly, but the pressure waves would end up mauling the innards of the crew. In other words, tank is safe, crew, not so much. If the shell pens, imagine a large grenade exploding in a small room. 

HEAT- if the copper gets through, serious burns for everyone inside.

APCR-See AP, but with a little less overall damage.

HESH- The nasty one, this spalls the armor, causing shrapnel to fly everywhere inside the tank, resulting in the equivalent of a blender for a good 10 seconds.

 

Sorry, could not spare the gore in order to properly describe it.


Edited by stormtroopercat, May 07 2014 - 16:04.


Echo_Sniper #9 Posted May 07 2014 - 16:04

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Pretty much this :

 



Grisbane #10 Posted May 07 2014 - 16:06

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View Postkampfer91, on May 07 2014 - 10:47, said:

During WW2 and nowadays :smile:

Kinda curious about it .

And pls spare me the gore part .

 

 

sparing the gore would be an injustice, but honestly it depends on the round.. 

 

Heat and Hesh are crew killers..  HEAT explodes on impact, the shaped charge liquifies the copper head on the round, as the copper jet pushes through the armor, it exits into the interior as a spray, killing most of the crew inside. 

 

Hesh does something similar, spalling the metal on the inside of the armor, turning it to high speed shrapnel..  which gives the same effect as putting the crew in a blender. 

 

APCR and it's evolutions HVAP, APDS, APFSDS are sub-caliber rounds made of high density metal such as tungsten or depleted uranium designed to punch straight through the armor at incredible speeds.  These rounds are designed to pass through the crew department into critical areas of the tank..  and they often do, but much of the time they shatter once they enter the tank..  having the same effect as HESH in the end. 

 

God forbid any of these hit ammo or fuel.



CapnShep #11 Posted May 07 2014 - 16:06

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View PostSilkySmooth, on May 07 2014 - 10:02, said:

 

 

youtube! Some great videos there on what happens during tank warfare 

Yes there are. No destruction, but I love the T 90MS demonstration vid.

 

 

your avatar is darn near hypnotic, btw. 

 

*Edit: found the correct video I was looking for.


Edited by CapnShep, May 07 2014 - 16:18.


Samsqwench #12 Posted May 07 2014 - 16:08

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HEADQUARTERS 776TH TANK DESTROYER BATTALION APO #758
11 December 1944
EFFECTIVENESS OF FIRE OF 57 MM ANTI-TANK GUN ON MK V TANK


57mm Anti-Tank Gun Model M-1 71st RegimentOn 8 December 1944 a demonstration was conducted by the 776th TD Bn in the vicinity of SCHALBACH, 572-268 with a 57mm AT gun belonging to the 71st Inf. Regt. of 44th Inf. Div. The purpose of this test was to determine the effectiveness of the 57mm AT gun against a Mk V Panther tank. An effort was made to secure AT gun positions so the tank could be fired at from all angles. The terrain was too wet to get the gun into all the desired firing positions, but three positions at different ranges and firing angles were occupied.

The crew was comprised of members of the AT crews of the 71st Regt, with two members of each gun crew being present. The Panther tanks previously knocked out by the 776th TD Bn, were used. One tank did spot burn when it was knocked out, while the second tank had a turret fire and it was in this tank’s turret that a 3” hole was made with the 57mm AT gun.

The AT crews were impressed with the favorable results of the firing and showed a marked increase in their confidence of the 57mm AT gun at the conclusion of the test.

The 57mm AT gun was put into position behind the tank at a range of 300 yds at a 15 degree angle from the tank’s flank. From this position 7 rounds of APC (AT) were fired. Three rounds were fired into the turret, all of which made a clean hole and started small fires. Two rounds were fired at the hull just above the track, which made clean holes, but started no fire. Two rounds were fired into the track, which took out one bogey wheel and broke the track.

Panther Mk Mark V panzer tank france 57mm anti-tank testThe gun was moved to a new position of 500 yds. At a 10 degree angle off the rear of the tank. Three rounds were fired into the turret, two on the sides and one in the rear, which made clean holes and started small fires. Two rounds were fired into the rear of the track, which was broken with these two rounds. Two rounds were fired into the rear of the tank, which started more fires. This tank was completely burned by the fire from these two positions.

The gun was moved to a new position of 300 yds range at an 8 degree angle off the front of the tank. Three rounds were fired into the front of the tank. These rounds made slight penetrations then ricocheted off the frontal armor. Two rounds were fired into the turret—one made a clean hole, the other mad a hole about three inches in diameter. No fires were started. Two rounds were fired low on the track, these went through the bogie wheels on one side and came through tore up the bogie wheel and track on the other side of the tank. Two rounds were fired into the front driving sprocket and the track was broken. All but one round fired from this position, which was a bad frontal angle, made clean holes, with the exception of the three fired on the frontal armor, which made only slight penetration.

CONCLUSION: From these three positions, one which presented a bad frontal angle it is evident that the Panther Mk V is vulnerable to the 57mm AT gun. There was no difference in the size of the holes made by the APC at the greater range. All but one of the turret hits were clean-cut holes and not gouged out from the impact of the APC. All but two hits in the turret set off some of the ammunition and started small fires. The hull, the part of the tank between the track and the turret, is vulnerable, and the APC made a slightly larger hole than the diameter of the shell, also a larger hole than was made in the turret. The track and bogie wheels were easily broken. The rear of the tank and turret can be penetrated with the same satisfactory results as the sides of the turret and the hull.

Properly employed for flanking fire, it is believed that the 57mm AT gun is an effective weapon against any German Armor. Gunners must withhold their fire until about 500 yards or less, and not give away their position with premature firing at greater ranges. If a tank must be fired on the front, the gun is capable of breaking the track on it strongest part, the driving sprocket, and the tank can be stopped.
/s/ Louis J. WABLE
/t/ LOUIS J. WABLE
Captain, F.A.
 

kampfer91 #13 Posted May 07 2014 - 16:13

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I guess it would be extremely lucky if the whole crew managed to survive and bail out of a destroyed tank .

iTkArti_7o7o7o7o #14 Posted May 07 2014 - 16:18

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View PostEcho_Sniper, on May 07 2014 - 09:04, said:

Pretty much this :

 

I did not like whatching this video. But thanks for linking it, I had no idea..



SmirkingGerbil #15 Posted May 07 2014 - 16:33

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That is why, I have always thought some type of mechanic should be introduced to reduce crew effectiveness for a period of time, after the shell hits, depending on caliber and the damage recorded.

 

Specifically from such instances as when my JPE100 launches a 178mm shell striking a T71 in the turret and said T71 speeds away completely un-scathed.

 

In reality, even if the shell did ricochet, the mass of that shell striking such a small tank would "ring the bell of all crew members" so hard, they would at least be disoriented or suffer from some type of sensory overload. At least knock down crew from 100% to 50 for about 5 seconds?

 

Anyway, probably won't happen.



HaxzUsuxz #16 Posted May 07 2014 - 17:02

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Take your pick, all three have boom boom boom in them

Edited by HaxzUsuxz, May 07 2014 - 17:02.


_Obsidious #17 Posted May 07 2014 - 17:16

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View Post_Patience_, on May 07 2014 - 11:18, said:

I did not like whatching this video. But thanks for linking it, I had no idea..

Me neither.



Audie_L_Murphy #18 Posted May 07 2014 - 17:57

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My great uncle was a tanker during WWII.  He was a commander of a Sherman tank.  He had two tanks knocked out during battle.  One was from a Panzerfaust shot into the engine area.  This disabled the tank & started a fire.  The entire crew was able to escape.  The 2nd time they got knocked out was when arty blew off a track.  The concussion injured 2 crew members but, no deaths.  They lost several crew members due to small arms fire & arty frags when not buttoned up.

He did tell of several times getting hits that penned the tank but, either went thru or caused no damage but a hole in the tank.  He said more than a couple of guys in other tanks got banged up from pens. 

An interesting story he told about attempting to engage a Jagdtiger.  They couldn't hurt that thing at all when they shot at it.  The 128mm shells weren't that fast & you could see them fly thru the air.  Out of his 5 tanks, the Jagtiger knocked out 2.  The 1st one exploded killing all the crew.  Another Sherman took a shell THRU the turret leaving a hole you could put your fist thru in the front and rear.of the turret.  The gunner was only slightly injured.  He said they retreated over a mile & thought they we safely out of range & the damn thing took out another Sherman (complete loss of crew).  They hid & called for arty & air.  After the area was plastered, they went back...never found the Jadgtiger.

My uncle said that tank versus tank battles were very rare.  He never actually saw a Tiger tank that wasn't knocked out.

 

I asked him what the biggest threats were to his tank.

His reponse was:  1.  14 year old kids running around with hand held weapons (Panzerfaust-I was 14 at the time).  "Those kids were too stupid to be afraid & would rush right up to take shots at you".  2.  Anti-tank guns.  You didn't see them before they started shooting & were very hard to find when they fired.  3.  Arty.  Getting caught in a barrage isn't fun.  He couldn't image how bad it was for the infanty with only a shirt as armor.  4.  Mines.  5.  Other tanks.  He just didn't see many other tanks during his time.  They feared the TD's & Panthers over any other tanks.

I'm guessing tankers had much different answers based on the enemy they faced.  My Uncle's tank had a broken gun one day in Normandy.  They took the tank back to the depot & had to wait all night to get it repaired.  When he returned his unit had been overrun by Panthers.  Wiping out his entire company of tanks.  If he had been there that night, I'm guessing that tanks & Panthers would have been much higer on his list.



Blackhorse_Six_ #19 Posted May 07 2014 - 21:02

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View Poststormtroopercat, on May 07 2014 - 11:04, said:

AP- Straight through the tank with a little shrapnel, would instantly kill anyone in the path of the shell, and can also tear an arm off due to the sheer turbulance the shell creates.

HE- outside, pressure waves would crack the hull slightly, but the pressure waves would end up mauling the innards of the crew. In other words, tank is safe, crew, not so much. If the shell pens, imagine a large grenade exploding in a small room.

HEAT- if the copper gets through, serious burns for everyone inside.

APCR-See AP, but with a little less overall damage.

HESH- The nasty one, this spalls the armor, causing shrapnel to fly everywhere inside the tank, resulting in the equivalent of a blender for a good 10 seconds.

 

Sorry, could not spare the gore in order to properly describe it.

 

Not all APxx penetrations exit the target - so much energy may have been expended on the intial pen that any remaining is expended via multiple ricochets inside the tank, or may lodge in softer hardware like radios or ammo bins. Most often, APxx splinters on the initial pen, which heightens the probability that multiple effects will occur simultaneously.

 

Your list does not include APHE, which is intended to explode after penetrating with about the same yeild as a hand-grenade. Alot of things, and crewmen, can get messed-up by the explosion of the HE filler and case fragmentation, as if the intial pen and spall were not enough ...

 

Lastly, nothing bounces for 10 seconds - it ain't pinball, but it is all over-with in less than the blink of an eye ...



fsjd #20 Posted May 07 2014 - 22:10

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the chieftain refers to a penetration as a "significant emotional event" IIRC.

 

one fairly large, very high velocity object hits a piece of metal with enough energy to punch through.

lots of small pieces of the second piece and the wreckage of the first object are now all moving in an expanding pattern at high velocity into the inside of the tank.

soft biological material reacts poorly to hot supersonic shards of metal. so do propellant charges, electronics, and oils.

 

there are quite a few slow motion shots of bullets hitting/penetrating sheet metal out on youtube. ask yourself if you want to be in the path of a scaled up version of that.

 

with HE shells, well its a large explosion very close to you. if its inside the tank, its even closer, and now confined, along with all of its shrapnel.

 

HESH shells, see the first example, but without the projectile fragments.

HEAT, the penetrating fragments are from a copper liner instead of the whole thing.

 

basically, all of this is shorthand for "a very bad day" for the tank and its crew.

 

 






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