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What will happen when a shell penetrated a tank ?


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Black_Stealth_Badger41 #21 Posted May 07 2014 - 22:51

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Nothing to worry about in WOT's arcade of bounce factory tanks and shells.  Where anti tank guns, ammo used and penetration factors MEAN NOTHING.

Shackram #22 Posted May 15 2014 - 00:54

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In WWII many 75mm and larger AP shells were APHE, which mean they had an explosive filler and exploded inside the tank after penetration, like a grenade.

 

So the shell hits the armor, the penetration probably creates high velocity shrapnel from the plate armor being torn open and then the shells explodes inside, creating a blast wave in a small, enclosed enviroment and more fragments. GG for the crew.

 

Modern DU penetrators are incendiary, because depleted uranium is pyrophoric.



zloykrolik #23 Posted May 15 2014 - 02:40

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Oh, you said pyrophoric. :teethhappy:

Anlushac11 #24 Posted May 27 2014 - 06:36

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Panzer Granate model 1939 (Pz.gR.39) IIRC translates roughly to Armor Grenade.



RedShocktrooper #25 Posted May 27 2014 - 08:19

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View PostAnlushac11, on May 26 2014 - 22:36, said:

Panzer Granate model 1939 (Pz.gR.39) IIRC translates roughly to Armor Grenade.

 

In our terminology that would be APHE.



Ragnar_Redmane #26 Posted May 27 2014 - 16:04

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View PostAnlushac11, on May 27 2014 - 07:36, said:

Panzer Granate model 1939 (Pz.gR.39) IIRC translates roughly to Armor Grenade.

Granate has no direct translation, it can mean grenade (Handgranate -> hand grenade), shell (Artilleriegranate -> artillery shell) or round (Mörsergranate -> mortar round). It depends on the context, if you simply tell someone that you got Granaten (e.g. in your cellar) they'll first think of hand grenades and other infantry grenades. As soon as you talk about ships, tanks, artillery and other large (vehicle mounted) guns they'll know you're talking about "shells". Round is the odd one in the bunch, Mörsergranate being the only granate related word springing to mind right now, as round is usually translated as Kugel (= (small arms) bullet, cannon ball when talking about pre shell artillery) oder Geschoss (extremly general and broad term, basically meaning projectile [Projektil can also be used instead]).   

 

In other words, tank shell is the correct literal translation of Panzergranate.

 

Source: I'm German 



155mm_Royalty #27 Posted May 27 2014 - 18:16

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Colddawg #28 Posted May 27 2014 - 19:48

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I never understood the long rod (detonator/fuse) on the tip of the HEAT round.  I understand it has a purpose and probably a lot of testing has gone into it, which if someone could find would be awesome, but my brain wonders if the explosives from the HEAT round has to deal with the top of the HEAT round casing and the space between the explosive and copper cone and the vehicle armor before actually penetrating the armor or if its effects on the penetration power are negligible.

zloykrolik #29 Posted May 28 2014 - 03:23

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HEAT warheads need standoff room for the jet to properly form.

Meplat #30 Posted May 28 2014 - 03:36

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"What will happen when a shell penetrated a tank ?"

 

Bad things.  Bad things happen.



Blackhorse_Six_ #31 Posted May 28 2014 - 04:37

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View PostColddawg, on May 27 2014 - 14:48, said:

I never understood the long rod (detonator/fuse) on the tip of the HEAT round.  I understand it has a purpose and probably a lot of testing has gone into it, which if someone could find would be awesome, but my brain wonders if the explosives from the HEAT round has to deal with the top of the HEAT round casing and the space between the explosive and copper cone and the vehicle armor before actually penetrating the armor or if its effects on the penetration power are negligible.

 

You are talking about what is known as the "spike". The spike contains the piezo-electric fusing required to detonate the charge. It also provides the split-second stand-off which zloykrolik alluded to. When the round makes contact on the target face, the spike is crushed and lost even as the fuse functions. During the WOT timeline, HEAT required a fairly dead-on no-angle hit in order to function. Problematic, but we lived with it until the late 1970's / early 1980's when the piezo-strips were added, allowing the fuse to work on off-angle hits, leading to the refinement of the round as a dual-purpose munition, which eventually replaced the HE round vs infantry targets (the US Army does not use HE in the M1, but the Marines do). Most other nations cover the nose with a ballistic windscreen or cap - the spike is fairly unique to the US and NATO clients.

 

The video in post #27 covers it all pretty well ...



Colddawg #32 Posted May 28 2014 - 06:35

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View PostBlackhorse_Six, on May 27 2014 - 23:37, said:

 

You are talking about what is known as the "spike". The spike contains the piezo-electric fusing required to detonate the charge. It also provides the split-second stand-off which zloykrolik alluded to. When the round makes contact on the target face, the spike is crushed and lost even as the fuse functions. During the WOT timeline, HEAT required a fairly dead-on no-angle hit in order to function. Problematic, but we lived with it until the late 1970's / early 1980's when the piezo-strips were added, allowing the fuse to work on off-angle hits, leading to the refinement of the round as a dual-purpose munition, which eventually replaced the HE round vs infantry targets. Most other nations cover the nose with a ballistic windscreen or cap - the spike is fairly unique to the US and NATO clients.

 

Colddawg, be careful not to make bad assumptions ... all this takes place in the merest fraction of a second ... Theory is one thing, but reality is always someting else ...

View Postzloykrolik, on May 27 2014 - 22:23, said:

HEAT warheads need standoff room for the jet to properly form.

 

 

Thank you for the explanation.



Xlucine #33 Posted May 28 2014 - 18:00

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View PostBlackhorse_Six, on May 28 2014 - 04:37, said:

During the WOT timeline, HEAT required a fairly dead-on no-angle hit in order to function.

 

Unless it was russian! :tongue:



CarnageINC #34 Posted Jun 10 2014 - 17:45

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I think in the M1 series, if you where to get a penetrating hit it would probably be on the turret sides and the only crew that would survive would probably be the driver.  It always seemed to me that there was enough bulky equipment protecting him from any blast in the turret if the turret was orientated in the frontal arc.  Who knows.. maybe the TC and gunner my be blown out the hatchets and have a small chance to survive.  The gunner.....toast....:arta:

ColeDragonKnight1 #35 Posted Aug 25 2014 - 02:33

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Back in WW2? If it was Russian they would explode, Germans would wonder what hit em, Americans would burn then explode.

 

Now a days, 

 

The Israelis laugh and get out of the tank unharmed 

The brit's lose a toe,

The Americans spend 50,000 dollars destroying what's left 

And the Russians Explode



panzershreck65 #36 Posted Aug 26 2014 - 02:33

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depends on a lot of things, including but not limited to:

size of shell

what type

angle of impact

the overall design of the tank's interior.

whether it has any spall protection (most ww2 tanks didn't have that)

the type of armor the tank has

the armor thickness

a significant emotion event in all instances, 

 

on an AP shell like you see in game (APDS/APCR are pretty much the same. ill give some details on APCR later), are either a solid slug or they are what is known as APCBC-HE. which basically means that you have the main projectile, which has a somewhat flat head (to do the normalization thing, helps with angled armor a bit), then you have a cap on top of that (this is the C part) that helps the shell attain better ballistics, a blunt bullet isn't as fast as a sharp one, also doesn't pen as much armor. the ballistics cap,(the BC part) is a softer medal that does something similar to APCR, if is designed to lessen the stress of the impact so the main projectile doesnt shatter on impact. APCR is usually a tungsten shell with steel or titanium in the middle. the titanium is alot softer and works like the back egde of a samurai sword, it takes some of the shockwave that passes through the medal and makes it so you dont have to fight though it as much, leading to better cutting power/penetration capabilities. the HE part means that the main projectile has a high explosive filler, this was common in WW2 era tank rounds. most notably the german 75mm L/24 has APCBC round. (i think the 17pdr does too.) this makes the shell way more effective at killing the crew inside, the HE filler has a fuse like a bomb and detonates inside the tank. pretty nasty. but you trade some pen for this nastiness. solid slug just pens and hopefully hits something like ammo that will catch on fire and explode. (hopefully)

 

a high explosive round is basically a super high velocity bomb. you shoot it out of the gun it impacts the armor and detonates, what happens then depends on the type of armor, the armor thickness, and whether or not you have any spall protection inside. spall is a term that is used a lot around here, spalling happens when something impacts the armor, it creates microscopic fractures in the metal from the intense stress, this causes small pieces of debris from the inside part of the armor to fly around the inside of the tank. the round doesn't even have to penetrate for this to happen. 

 

in fact, high explosve squash heads, or HESH or HEP (depending on which side of the pond ur from, the p means plastic. and american documentation call it HEP for whatever stupid reason) a high explosive squash head is definitely my favorite type of shell. what a hesh round does, is its a special type of high explosive that is more maleable than regular HE (its probably a type of plastic explosive based on the term HEP) when it impacts armor, it forms to the armor and makes a cone shape, the cone shape helps concentrate the explosive energy better. this can be done at pretty much any angle too, hesh is more effective vs angled armor than flat armor ive been told. doesnt make a whole lot of sense. but these people have actual tank experience so i listen to them. 

when this happens, it concentrates an ABSURD amount of energy in one spot, this concentration creates an awe-inspiring shockwave that reasonates inside the tank, this shockwave is so powerful that is turns the crew inside out (not really is just turns soft little human beings into what can best be described as goo) and if that somehow doesnt kill the poor people inside, the spalling that results rips everything up and can set the ammo on fire. and then bewm. 

 

HEAT or high explosive anti-tank is a hollow charged warhead that is slung by rich people in game (notably the t54 and t62 drivers) in fact HEAT was so effective in the post war period its the reason the leopard 1 doesn't have armor. the germans and french figured that they couldn't protect their tanks from hollow charges like RPG's and HEAT rounds that they just made their tanks bullet proof and gave them lots of speed and nasty guns. nowadays tanks have armor that is pretty much specifically designed to combat HEAT ammo.

HEAT is the most advanced type of round you'll encounter in the game. its also pretty nasty. HEAT has a reasonably powerful HE charge to it, but that's not what makes it deadly, the reason its called hollow charged is because it has a small chamber where the plasma created by the explosion and chemicals in the warhead are concentrated on a very small point, (that's why HEAT rounds make really small holes on tanks in-game) and this heat and explosive energy melts a hole in the armor and sends, for lack of a better term. plasma into the crew compartment and melts anyone unfortunate enough to get in its way really well.it also is great for lighting a tank's fuel stowage on fire (especially a gas fueled tank) 


Edited by panzershreck65, Aug 26 2014 - 02:41.


_Skull__ #37 Posted Aug 26 2014 - 02:48

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You will lose hit points duh???!!!

 



fsjd #38 Posted Aug 26 2014 - 04:36

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Block Quote

is known as APCBC-HE. which basically means that you have the main projectile, which has a somewhat flat head (to do the normalization thing, helps with angled armor a bit), then you have a cap on top of that (this is the C part) that helps the shell attain better ballistics, a blunt bullet isn't as fast as a sharp one, also doesn't pen as much armor. the ballistics cap,(the BC part) is a softer medal that does something similar to APCR, if is designed to lessen the stress of the impact so the main projectile doesnt shatter on impact

you got those mixed up a bit.

you have an AP shell with a softer, flatter metal tip to aid normalization/penetration (the C)

the ballistics cap (BC) is the aerodynamic one and goes on top of the rest, and didn't do much beside that.

all standard shells in the game are assumed to be this.

Block Quote

APCR is usually a tungsten shell with steel or titanium in the middle. the titanium is alot softer and works like the back egde of a samurai sword, it takes some of the shockwave that passes through the medal and makes it so you dont have to fight though it as much, leading to better cutting power/penetration capabilities

 APCR has a softer shell (aluminum/steel) giving the full caliber for propellant gasses to push on.

the core is a hard tungsten alloy penetrator that has most of the mass and all of the penetrating power.

the outside is ripped off on impact, not doing much.

the ammo fired from the VK3601Hs 75mm konish are similar to these due to the gun being a squeezebore.

these are the predecessor to APDS/APFSDS.

their main problem is in flight, accuracy tended to be poorer than AP(CBC) because the shell is the same size but much lighter than a standard AP round.

the Discarding Sabo accomplished the same as the APCR, but discarding the full bore section immediately after the barrel to allow for much better accuracy.

 

Block Quote

in fact, high explosve squash heads, or HESH or HEP (depending on which side of the pond ur from, the p means plastic. and american documentation call it HEP for whatever stupid reason) a high explosive squash head is definitely my favorite type of shell. what a hesh round does, is its a special type of high explosive that is more maleable than regular HE (its probably a type of plastic explosive based on the term HEP) when it impacts armor, it forms to the armor and makes a cone shape, the cone shape helps concentrate the explosive energy better. this can be done at pretty much any angle too, hesh is more effective vs angled armor than flat armor ive been told. doesnt make a whole lot of sense. but these people have actual tank experience so i listen to them.

 you got these mixed up a bit with HEAT.

HESH works almost solely by spalling, and is a lower velocity ammunition type.

it actually spreads the explosive's energy out somewhat so as to rip pieces off the back face of the armor and turn the impact point into something resembling a shotgun or claymore blast.

 

Block Quote

HEAT is the most advanced type of round you'll encounter in the game. its also pretty nasty. HEAT has a reasonably powerful HE charge to it, but that's not what makes it deadly, the reason its called hollow charged is because it has a small chamber where the plasma created by the explosion and chemicals in the warhead are concentrated on a very small point, (that's why HEAT rounds make really small holes on tanks in-game) and this heat and explosive energy melts a hole in the armor and sends, for lack of a better term. plasma into the crew compartment and melts anyone unfortunate enough to get in its way really well.it also is great for lighting a tank's fuel stowage on fire (especially a gas fueled tank)

 

HEAT rounds are also kinetic penetraters, but by a different mechanism.

nothing melts actually, but the directed explosion superplasticizes a copper sheet into a high velocity penetrator.

its big advantage is not relying on impact velocity, so even a low velocity man-portable launcher can be as effective as a tanks main round. (bazooka, panzerschreck)

after the copper "jet" goes a certain distance, it breaks apart (and helpfully for the attacker, more high velocity material inside the tank). detonate too far away, it doesn't do anything as it loses the mass to penetrate. spaced armor is among the best ways to defeat these for that reason.

too close, same thing, the jet cant form.

ERA works best against these by damaging the round or its copper penetrator.

 



Toxn #39 Posted Aug 31 2014 - 18:57

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View PostColeDragonKnight1, on Aug 25 2014 - 02:33, said:

Back in WW2? If it was Russian they would explode, Germans would wonder what hit em, Americans would burn then explode.

 

Now a days, 

 

The Israelis laugh and get out of the tank unharmed 

The brit's lose a toe,

The Americans spend 50,000 dollars destroying what's left 

And the Russians Explode

Will these myths ever die?

 

The fact is that, of all the WWII tanks to be stuck in during a penetration, the M4 was probably the most survivable (~1 death per KO'd tank). That said, there were almost no tanks up until the 1980s that didn't have a significant chance of turning into instant-ovens when hit.

 

To the OP - tanks are cramped metal boxes filled with things that burn, explode or fly apart on impact. And a cannon round provides plenty of impact.

 



ColeDragonKnight1 #40 Posted Aug 31 2014 - 19:42

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View PostToxn, on Aug 31 2014 - 12:57, said:

Will these myths ever die?

 

The fact is that, of all the WWII tanks to be stuck in during a penetration, the M4 was probably the most survivable (~1 death per KO'd tank). That said, there were almost no tanks up until the 1980s that didn't have a significant chance of turning into instant-ovens when hit.

 

To the OP - tanks are cramped metal boxes filled with things that burn, explode or fly apart on impact. And a cannon round provides plenty of impact.

 

 

Not so much myths as funny things, It was proven M4's were fire traps till people learned ammo should be stored right and oil and gas clenaed up, Russians did have issues with cook off's cause they litterly had it in any space.






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