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What will happen when a shell penetrated a tank ?


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Toxn #41 Posted Aug 31 2014 - 21:08

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View PostColeDragonKnight1, on Aug 31 2014 - 19:42, said:

 

Not so much myths as funny things, It was proven M4's were fire traps till people learned ammo should be stored right and oil and gas clenaed up, Russians did have issues with cook off's cause they litterly had it in any space.

And I suppose ze Goimans kept their panzerkampfwagens spotlessly clean and never had any fire issues ever?

 

Oh.

Maybe a fluke?

 

 

But what about

 

 

Yup. Tiger burns fine too.

 

Is the point sufficiently illustrated yet?



Driftin #42 Posted Aug 31 2014 - 21:23

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View PostColddawg, on May 27 2014 - 14:48, said:

I never understood the long rod (detonator/fuse) on the tip of the HEAT round.  I understand it has a purpose and probably a lot of testing has gone into it, which if someone could find would be awesome, but my brain wonders if the explosives from the HEAT round has to deal with the top of the HEAT round casing and the space between the explosive and copper cone and the vehicle armor before actually penetrating the armor or if its effects on the penetration power are negligible.

 

  HEAT rounds are shaped charges and don't work off the explosion itself. The explosive is shaped into a cone with a copper covering. The copper becomes molten from the explosion and it is what actually penetrates. It is the same principle used to cut steel beams when demolishing buildings. The charge itself needs a small standoff distance to allow the copper jet to form. If it explodes to close, the jet won't form and becomes no more effective than HE.

balmung60 #43 Posted Aug 31 2014 - 21:51

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View PostColeDragonKnight1, on Aug 31 2014 - 13:42, said:

 

Not so much myths as funny things, It was proven M4's were fire traps till people learned ammo should be stored right and oil and gas clenaed up, Russians did have issues with cook off's cause they litterly had it in any space.

 

While (more or less) true, it was also hardly a Sherman exclusive problem.  With the exception of wet ammo rack Shermans, pretty much every tank of the war (including all models of German tanks) burned pretty easily when hit because they're cramped metal boxes full of all kinds of flammable stuff, including, but not limited to, fuel and ammunition.  The wet ammo rack Shermans resolved this by taking the ammo (mostly) out of the "stuff that will easily catch fire" list and by taking it out of the line of fire in general.

xthetenth #44 Posted Aug 31 2014 - 22:39

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Also the Panthers had literally every fire risk of the Shermans and engines that tended to self-ignite.

ColeDragonKnight1 #45 Posted Aug 31 2014 - 23:34

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View PostToxn, on Aug 31 2014 - 15:08, said:

And I suppose ze Goimans kept their panzerkampfwagens spotlessly clean and never had any fire issues ever?

 

Oh.

Maybe a fluke?

 

 

But what about

 

 

Yup. Tiger burns fine too.

 

Is the point sufficiently illustrated yet?

 

Probably complete flukes

 

.

Spoiler

 



Walter_Sobchak #46 Posted Sep 01 2014 - 01:46

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View PostDriftin, on Aug 31 2014 - 16:23, said:

 

  HEAT rounds are shaped charges and don't work off the explosion itself. The explosive is shaped into a cone with a copper covering. The copper becomes molten from the explosion and it is what actually penetrates. It is the same principle used to cut steel beams when demolishing buildings. The charge itself needs a small standoff distance to allow the copper jet to form. If it explodes to close, the jet won't form and becomes no more effective than HE.

 

Just to be fussy, let me point out that the copper does not actually become "molten."  Rather, due to a phenomena known as superplastically, the solid material behaves in a manner similar to a liquid due to the extreme forces it is subjected to. 

Chopa #47 Posted Sep 01 2014 - 02:34

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But it still smarts when it hits you.

Walter_Sobchak #48 Posted Sep 01 2014 - 04:00

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View PostChopa, on Aug 31 2014 - 21:34, said:

But it still smarts when it hits you.

 

Indeed.  I seem to remember reading that in the Yom Kipper war, a few Israeli tank commanders claiming that they were blown out of their vehicle when hit by sagger missles due to the pressure caused inside the vehicle once hit by a HEAT warhead.  This was while they had their upper body outside the hatch, fighting "hatch open."  If they had been buttoned up, they claim the damage would have been worse since the pressure would have been contained.  I have no idea where I read that nor how true it is.  Anyone remember hearing something similar?

Toxn #49 Posted Sep 01 2014 - 07:40

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View PostColeDragonKnight1, on Aug 31 2014 - 23:34, said:

 

Probably complete flukes

 

.

Spoiler

 

 

Hence the light-hearted response :trollface:

 

But seriously; I now have issues separating semi-humorous quips from the full-blown "hurr durr Sherman death traps" nonsense that permeates discussions about the second world war.

 

View PostWalter_Sobchak, on Sep 01 2014 - 04:00, said:

 

Indeed.  I seem to remember reading that in the Yom Kipper war, a few Israeli tank commanders claiming that they were blown out of their vehicle when hit by sagger missles due to the pressure caused inside the vehicle once hit by a HEAT warhead.  This was while they had their upper body outside the hatch, fighting "hatch open."  If they had been buttoned up, they claim the damage would have been worse since the pressure would have been contained.  I have no idea where I read that nor how true it is.  Anyone remember hearing something similar?

I've always been a bit leery of this one (I've read about it in quite a few accounts), as humans take a lot of lifting and deflagration tends to result in scorching death. This is supported by the fact that the only footage I've seen of an actual human being being blown out of an armoured vehicle (Syria) included a post-script detailing how the fortunate unfortunate died of third degree burns a few days later.



ColeDragonKnight1 #50 Posted Sep 01 2014 - 12:03

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View PostToxn, on Sep 01 2014 - 01:40, said:

 

Hence the light-hearted response :trollface:

 

But seriously; I now have issues separating semi-humorous quips from the full-blown "hurr durr Sherman death traps" nonsense that permeates discussions about the second world war.

 

I've always been a bit leery of this one (I've read about it in quite a few accounts), as humans take a lot of lifting and deflagration tends to result in scorching death. This is supported by the fact that the only footage I've seen of an actual human being being blown out of an armoured vehicle (Syria) included a post-script detailing how the fortunate unfortunate died of third degree burns a few days later.

 

That when the T-72 get's hit by a RPG-29? Cause a lot of bad things happened to that tank including the Sympathetic detonation of the gun, then the ammo rack cooking off.

SKULL2XL #51 Posted Sep 01 2014 - 13:42

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View PostMeplat, on May 27 2014 - 22:36, said:

"What will happen when a shell penetrated a tank ?"

 

Bad things.  Bad things happen.

 

+1

NutrientibusMeaGallus #52 Posted Sep 01 2014 - 16:21

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View PostWalter_Sobchak, on Aug 31 2014 - 23:00, said:

 

Indeed.  I seem to remember reading that in the Yom Kipper war, a few Israeli tank commanders claiming that they were blown out of their vehicle when hit by sagger missles due to the pressure caused inside the vehicle once hit by a HEAT warhead.  This was while they had their upper body outside the hatch, fighting "hatch open."  If they had been buttoned up, they claim the damage would have been worse since the pressure would have been contained.  I have no idea where I read that nor how true it is.  Anyone remember hearing something similar?

 

Since the tank's shell has to be penetrated to begin with for an explosion to happen on the inside in this situation... Any pressure or blast wave would only be contained for a second or two anyway due to the hole the projectile entered the tank from...  An open hatch would act like a gun barrel, it'd be the air's path of least resistance for a moment, but I'd doubt someone could get blown out the hatch like they're saying... 

  If I had to guess those commanders didn't get to be commanders by being stupid, but had to find a plausible excuse for bailing just before the explosion of the tank that probably killed the rest of their crew... If they weren't buttoned up it's MUCH more likely the commander saw the incoming round and bailed, probably without enough time to even warn the rest of the crew.



ostrostrelec #53 Posted Sep 01 2014 - 16:29

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Video removed


Edited by ostrostrelec, Oct 28 2014 - 02:22.


zucchinibob #54 Posted Sep 01 2014 - 16:57

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View PostToxn, on Aug 31 2014 - 16:08, said:

 

Tiger, Tiger burning bright...

 

Sorry, just couldn't resist



ColeDragonKnight1 #55 Posted Sep 01 2014 - 20:49

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View Postostrostrelec, on Sep 01 2014 - 10:29, said:

PLay it at quarter speed at 5 seconds you can see the missile



Xlucine #56 Posted Sep 01 2014 - 22:28

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View PostToxn, on Sep 01 2014 - 07:40, said:

I've always been a bit leery of this one (I've read about it in quite a few accounts), as humans take a lot of lifting and deflagration tends to result in scorching death. This is supported by the fact that the only footage I've seen of an actual human being being blown out of an armoured vehicle (Syria) included a post-script detailing how the fortunate unfortunate died of third degree burns a few days later.

 

Blast overpressure seems to vary greatly, according to this trials on a conq saw a peak pressure of 20psi, whereas trials with the same HEAT warhead on an M26 saw peaks of 50psi

CarnageINC #57 Posted Sep 01 2014 - 23:09

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View PostXlucine, on Sep 01 2014 - 16:28, said:

 

Blast overpressure seems to vary greatly, according to this trials on a conq saw a peak pressure of 20psi, whereas trials with the same HEAT warhead on an M26 saw peaks of 50psi

 

Very nice find sir, very nice!  Thank you for sharing this :smiles:

ColeDragonKnight1 #58 Posted Sep 02 2014 - 12:34

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View PostXlucine, on Sep 01 2014 - 16:28, said:

 

Blast overpressure seems to vary greatly, according to this trials on a conq saw a peak pressure of 20psi, whereas trials with the same HEAT warhead on an M26 saw peaks of 50psi

 

If i remember right 50 will leave you heavily concussed if it lasts for over 35ms, where as 20 ill take nearly 90ms to do that, so dangerous but not lethal in it's own right

Colddawg #59 Posted Sep 02 2014 - 16:30

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View PostWalter_Sobchak, on Aug 31 2014 - 23:00, said:

 

Indeed.  I seem to remember reading that in the Yom Kipper war, a few Israeli tank commanders claiming that they were blown out of their vehicle when hit by sagger missles due to the pressure caused inside the vehicle once hit by a HEAT warhead.  This was while they had their upper body outside the hatch, fighting "hatch open."  If they had been buttoned up, they claim the damage would have been worse since the pressure would have been contained.  I have no idea where I read that nor how true it is.  Anyone remember hearing something similar?

 

Are there any instances of a tank turret being unseated from the turret ring by a pressure wave where the tank wasn't destroyed?  If it is a pressure wave inside the tank that could blow out a TC with the hatch open it seems like it might have enough force to at least break the seal between the turret and hull.

VictorinoxForschner #60 Posted Sep 02 2014 - 16:35

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View Postkampfer91, on May 07 2014 - 08:47, said:

During WW2 and nowadays :smile:

Kinda curious about it .

And pls spare me the gore part .

 

Spare you the gore part? Are you the same way with your food as well? You like beef but how beef goes from cow to beef is not your viewing pleasure?

 

Just asking. :smile:






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