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Please help with troubling issues.


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Silln #1 Posted May 07 2011 - 19:32

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I've been having serious issues surviving since hitting the 3rd tier tanks. For all instances I have fully upgraded tanks.

1. Why is spotting suddenly nonexistent? I can be sitting completely still in a light scout and can be spotted by tanks I can't see myself. After dying I find out it's some other tank that makes it seem unreasonable they should be able to see me while motionless.

2. Why is it as a Tank Destroyer, I can't destroy tanks? In nearly every match I can catch a medium/heavy tank to its side and get two shots off before they can fire back. The result each time is my two shots bounce off or do negligible damage, while they fire directly at the front of my tank and kill me from full health.

3. Why is it I'm consistently the lowest tier tank in battles? When I was in tier2 I was with tier2+tier3, but since then I seem to always be at the bottom.

Lert #2 Posted May 07 2011 - 19:52

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Matchmaking is rough on T3 tanks. Fortunately you're not going to be in them for very long. The sweet spot is around T5 / T6, really. For fun, for earning, for balance ...

My advice: play more defensively. Stay behind bigger tanks. Pick your shots. Keep in mind that when you're the smallest tank on the team, your job is not to take out their biggest ones.

1N54N3 #3 Posted May 07 2011 - 19:52

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View PostSilln, on May 07 2011 - 19:32, said:

I've been having serious issues surviving since hitting the 3rd tier tanks. For all instances I have fully upgraded tanks.

1. Why is spotting suddenly nonexistent? I can be sitting completely still in a light scout and can be spotted by tanks I can't see myself. After dying I find out it's some other tank that makes it seem unreasonable they should be able to see me while motionless.

2. Why is it as a Tank Destroyer, I can't destroy tanks? In nearly every match I can catch a medium/heavy tank to its side and get two shots off before they can fire back. The result each time is my two shots bounce off or do negligible damage, while they fire directly at the front of my tank and kill me from full health.

3. Why is it I'm consistently the lowest tier tank in battles? When I was in tier2 I was with tier2+tier3, but since then I seem to always be at the bottom.

1. The spotting system is bugged. A plan for next patch is planned. To hide yourself without being seen (you are not hiding), you must find a bush to hide behind. You can enter the bush a little but you must not let your gun or hull peek out the front of the bush. Also, if you move your turret or hull, you break camo. Camouflage requires you be immobile for 6 seconds to engage. You then disappear up to a point.
Crew skills and netting will provide a bonus, also being a tank destroyer helps.

2. Any tank under tier 5 is food. Meaning I shoot you and you die defenseless. Deflaying (hull down, hide your hull) your hull and aiming down ensures you do not expose your vulnerable hull to enemy fire. Also, using HE rounds will ensure damage as they do not need to penetrate. Under tier 5, look for "derp guns" lower tech/tier high caliber canons that are effective with HE rounds.

3. Games are matched by tier range. Tier 1-2 Tier 3-5 Tier 3-7 etc... There is a chart somewhere but I am not looking for it. It also depends on your tank class. An SPG has a wider matchmaking range than a medium tank. Once you get a tier 5 tank, you will start being top tank in some games.

Lastly, you need training if you are asking these questions. I do not say this as an insult but as to help you. Join a clan that will provide you with basic tank training. It is the only way to progress if you wish to stop being food.

Silln #4 Posted May 07 2011 - 20:22

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I just had a game where as a Tank Destroyer I fired at least 12 rounds into a motionless heavy tank, and did 0 damage. As usual, I die in one hit. That was the only heavy tank in the match and pretty much just casually strolled through the map killing everyone or getting shots for artillery.

I hope things like that are some sort of mismatching that is also being fixed.

Dirtyherby #5 Posted May 07 2011 - 21:23

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Quote

1. Why is spotting suddenly nonexistent? I can be sitting completely still in a light scout and can be spotted by tanks I can't see myself. After dying I find out it's some other tank that makes it seem unreasonable they should be able to see me while motionless.
I feel for you there but at this time the spotting system is FUBAR at best.  I'll give you an example that happened to me last night:

I'm in Erlenburg on my M4 Sherman and I start out on the castle side.  10 of the 15 tanks go to the north and none, except me, go to the south.  So I figure if I have no support I'm not crossing the south bridge and I'll just spot, for the arty,  from the southern most house.  I parked M4 with its back to the bridge thinking that if I see a tank I can make a quick escape, after a shot, if I have my front facing the way I need to go - this was a mistake.  I can see from the house across the bridge to the ridge on the other side.  I have my turret pointed in the correct direction and I wait for any thing to "light up" on the map as it approaches.  I wait and I wait and nothing shows up, all of a sudden I get one shotted by a Tiger II that was crossing the bridge.  I never saw the tank until it showed up at my corpse, literaly, a second later.  With the way my turret was pointed and how far the other side of the bridge was away from me I should have easily spotted that tank crossing the bridge.  The fact that I got one shotted aggravated me but the fact the tank was that close to me and I never saw it enraged the living crap out of me. :angry:  I knew it was not a good idea to place my tank in the position it was in but I thought that I would be able to see a tank in enough time to move with little to no danger.


So, hopefully, the spotting system will be fixed with the next patch and invisi-tanks will be a thing of the past.


Quote

2. Why is it as a Tank Destroyer, I can't destroy tanks? In nearly every match I can catch a medium/heavy tank to its side and get two shots off before they can fire back. The result each time is my two shots bounce off or do negligible damage, while they fire directly at the front of my tank and kill me from full health.
All I can say is you are using the wrong ammunition for the tank you are shooting at.  I carry both AP & HE ammo because certain tanks tank more damage from an AP shell and other tanks respond better to HE shells.  I always have the game start me out with AP shells loaded.  In your example if an AP round bounces or ricochets on the first shot I switch to HE rounds and they will, usually, have much better results.  Also after the second shot its time to try and get the heck out of there if they aren't doing nothing.  Don't go toe to toe with a tank unless you are sure you can take it - most of the time you can't.  Try shoot and scoot, fire once and reposition, perhaps you will pull the tank, if he follows you, into a spot where team mates can kill it.


Quote

3. Why is it I'm consistently the lowest tier tank in battles? When I was in tier2 I was with tier2+tier3, but since then I seem to always be at the bottom.

Here is the link to how the match making system pairs things up: [http://wiki.worldoft...hanics]  Scroll down and Match Making is the very first article you will see.


You also need to learn how to be a tank operator, now that is not meant to insult or demean, there are aspects of this game that every player needs to learn to be a good tank operator.  There are some who know what to do in any given situation, there are others learning these finer points (yours truly included) and then there are those just starting out.  You can join a clan and the more experienced members will impart what they know or don't join a clan and learn through the school of hard knocks.  Either way you will eventually learn the finer points and become a good player.

I hope this helps you out.

Wiezzenger #6 Posted May 07 2011 - 23:20

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View PostDirtyherby, on May 07 2011 - 21:23, said:

I feel for you there but at this time the spotting system is FUBAR at best.  I'll give you an example that happened to me last night:

I'm in Erlenburg on my M4 Sherman and I start out on the castle side.  10 of the 15 tanks go to the north and none, except me, go to the south.  So I figure if I have no support I'm not crossing the south bridge and I'll just spot, for the arty,  from the southern most house.  


I suggest that you take a look at the battle mechanics wiki page.  If you're sitting in a house, it doesn't hide you unless it blocks the line of sight of all the points indicated on that page. Dirtyherby you linked that page as well, the spotting mechanism isn't broken, people just don't understand it. They're adjusting it to check twice as often for sight as well as updating where the rays come from.

Also the first figure is the tier set-up, sometimes it's just luck of the draw man and you're the last person on the list in a B-7.

For the second question take a look at the stats after game, it may be your gun doesn't have the penetration to actually damage the tank you're shooting.

Silln #7 Posted May 08 2011 - 14:13

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I don't understand how joining some group of people and playing with them is going to change the fact that tank destroyers can't kill anything above a light tank.

MadBadger #8 Posted May 08 2011 - 14:36

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View PostSilln, on May 07 2011 - 19:32, said:

I've been having serious issues surviving since hitting the 3rd tier tanks. For all instances I have fully upgraded tanks.

Spotting is changing, as already addressed.

Tier 3 Tank Destroyers can destroy many tanks. It depends on WHICH TD and which gun and which ammo you are using as well as the target tank.

The Marder II (tier 3 german TD) is widely considered one of the most powerful vehicles for its tier in the game... AFTER you upgrade to the big gun. I seem to recall having trouble with USSR tier 3 TD though. And the American tier 3 TD sucks so bad it may as well not even exist!

Mention the TD and the gun and ammo you are using (sometimes you will want to use HE for a strong knockout) and you will get more helpful comments on tank killing.

As for the "consistently in lowest tier", well, even a borked matchmaker won't put you at the bottom ALL the time. Also, remember, the matchmaker displays the top tier of tanks in alphabetical order, then the middle, then the bottom. So normally there are 3 (sometimes 4) tiers stacked in the list. If you are in an A-20, you will show up near the 'top' of your tier list. If you are in a Panzerjager, you will show up near the 'bottom'. So just the name of your tank can give you an illusion of being higher or lower on the list.

On the matchmaker itself, yes a lot of us feel it needs adjusting. I have this really snazzy poll on what players would like to see in a good match (Tier Spread, Arty Limit etc).  Go vote and make your voice heard!

Matchmaker Poll: Tier Spread, Arty Limit, Time to Good Match

Hope that helps,


:angry: Badger

atsiv #9 Posted May 08 2011 - 14:40

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what td are you using.just because you see a enemy tank if it`s bigger then what you can take on don`t fire at it.ping it on the map and hope arty see`s it.the su-85 and hetzer td`s can take out some heavies.below that don`t fire at them.@ badger there is no playable american td yet,just russian and germen

Ricox #10 Posted May 08 2011 - 19:25

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View PostSilln, on May 07 2011 - 20:22, said:

I just had a game where as a Tank Destroyer I fired at least 12 rounds into a motionless heavy tank, and did 0 damage. As usual, I die in one hit. That was the only heavy tank in the match and pretty much just casually strolled through the map killing everyone or getting shots for artillery.

I hope things like that are some sort of mismatching that is also being fixed.

That's how the matchmaking system works. Low tier tanks in high tier battles are not supposed to kill the top tier tanks, but to scout for your team's artillery and/or destroy enemy artillery.

Silln #11 Posted May 10 2011 - 14:21

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I just got finished with a match where it's down to 3 artillery, 1 TD, and a heavy tank versus our team which consisted of 3 artillery.  We worked together and took them in situations only one of us could be targeted at a time and managed to take out everything except the heavy tank. He just went on his merry way taking us out one by one and there was nothing we could do.

So I've figured out this game.

Be in a profitable tank and get put into matches where you will always be in a situation where the guy in the heavy tank wins every time. Once you get into a heavy tank, it's not profitable to use it so you have to shell out money to do so.

Nah, that's just poor greedy game design. I'll just uninstall.

Dirg #12 Posted May 10 2011 - 15:33

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View PostSilln, on May 10 2011 - 14:21, said:

I just got finished with a match where it's down to 3 artillery, 1 TD, and a heavy tank versus our team which consisted of 3 artillery.  We worked together and took them in situations only one of us could be targeted at a time and managed to take out everything except the heavy tank. He just went on his merry way taking us out one by one and there was nothing we could do.

So I've figured out this game.

Be in a profitable tank and get put into matches where you will always be in a situation where the guy in the heavy tank wins every time. Once you get into a heavy tank, it's not profitable to use it so you have to shell out money to do so.

Nah, that's just poor greedy game design. I'll just uninstall.
I would go out on a limb and say you are playing a FPS. You either right click auto aim or just point the tank and fire away. I would be willing to bet you cannot tell me where the Penetration indicator is on your gun. I can also guess you couldn't tell me what type of tank that heavy was or where it has soft spots on its armor. I will go further out on a limb and say you couldn't tell me how HE rounds work. Safe to say you are unaware of deflection and how to use it yourself and nullify it on your target.

All of this can be taught and is pretty simple. You can rage and blame the game or assume the fault is your own and try to figure out why. Which way you go is entirely your own call. G/L to you. :Smile_honoring:

Kaeldian #13 Posted May 10 2011 - 15:40

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I hope you haven't uninstalled.  And even if you did, I want to share these thoughts for other upcoming TD's.

I'm on the edge of getting into a StuggIII, so I've spent considerable time in the German TD line.  And one thing I found going through the first couple tiers, is you really have learn both patience and get over your fear of using HE shells.  During those tiers I learned....

1) To not get into bushes, but BEHIND them so that they could potentially hide my muzzleflashes.
2) To be picky about taking that first shot, because it could potentially reveal me.
3) Take note of the tank's position and range.  Why is this important?  Well, for me when I was using the Marder II, I used a set of personal rules to determine if I was going to use HE or AP.  At extreme ranges of 400 meters or more, I switched to HE because penetrating with AP became problematic.  If the only shot I had was front armor on anything larger than a light tank at ranges more than 300 meters, I used HE.  If it was a heavy, I ALWAYS used HE, excepting the rare occasion I had rear armor shot at under 100 meters in which I would go ahead and load the AP.

These set of personal rules helped me not only get through grinding the Marder II, but actually helped the team as I was actually starting to get some damage dealt.  Until the day came where I jumped into my Hetzer, picked up the 10.5, then loaded it with HE shells and never looked back...

Stick with it, it DOES get better.

hardicon #14 Posted May 10 2011 - 16:34

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I think every person having these questions need to go read the battle mechanics wiki page that somebody above me linked and that will probably answer most of  your questions.  

Im gonna assume that the people complaining about that heavy owning everyone is a kv, which is true if it gets into low tier matches the kv is a beast, well that is just the way it goes, but any light can take it out if they circle it, the turret cant keep up with your movement.  

Secondly for the spotting issue go read the wiki page, it explains spotting in pretty good detail, I personally dont have a problem with spotting any more, but that is because I understand the system.  Light tanks dont automatically have a higher view range, the t34 medium has the worst view range of any tank ive seen 270 km, that tank is a abysmal scouter.  Just because you can physically see the ridgeline way off in the distance dont mean you will see any tank that is up there, this is not a fps game.  There are actualy mathematical equations built into the game that will determine what you can see and what you can not see, there are several factors to these equations.  Those factors include:

1. view range.
2. crew skill.
3. Distance of tank from your tank.
4. Camo skill, camo rating, and camo net effects of enemy tank.
5. Movement of enemy tank.
6. Obstructing terrain between you and enemy tank.

Also the game makes random spotting checks at intervals, it is not spotting all the time, when it makes this check every 5 to 10 seconds sometimes this can lead to tanks appearing closer to you than they should of been when you first spotted them.  This is simple, game makes a spotting check, enemy tank is not close enough to be spotted or other terrain is blocking the rays, game stops making spotting check, reports to you all clear, tank is moving as fast as he can towards you though, but yall cant see each other, tank covers so many kilometers of ground before next spotting check reveals him really close to you.  this is being tweaked to make more spotting checks more often to cut down on this. At 50 meters a tank will automatically be detected by any other tank no matter what the intervening obstacles are and those checks are then made every half second to second or so, its really fast, no chance for a tank to dissapear at that point, ive never seen it happen anyway.

Learn the spotting system and you can learn how to avoid being spotted also, you can also blind fire at tanks by tracing back their shot, play td for a while and you will get pretty good at this if you try.  If I see a tank lit up, it is normally dead even if it dissapears before i can kill it, because I know where he is and where he will be going most likely, i generally kill those tanks.  On certain maps you know where the tanks will be hiding, you learn this over time, even if you cant see the tank, you can shoot where he is hiding and the bullet will still hit him and damage him you just wont be notified he is hit unless you kill him then your crew says we got him.

There is no way for a tiger 2 to sneak up on someone, it wont happen, most likely you wasnt watching your mini map and was looking somewhere else when he was spotted and by the time you turned to spot in that direction he was there, all heavy tanks are too slow to sneak up on someone, but then again I saw a arty sneak up on a t54 last night, even though i was telling him in chat the arty was behind him, multiple times, the arty was lit up on the map, everything else, arty still got behind him, lined up a perfect shot into the rear of the t54, waited for the reticle to zoom in, which takes a while, and killed the t54, i had enough time to type four messages to the t54 telling him arty is right behind him, he never saw the messages nor looked at his minimap.

anyways, hope this helps some people.




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