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Panther's final drives


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Poll: Panther's final drives (57 members have cast votes)

Was the weak final drive on Panther medium tank variant ever solved?

  1. Never solved (38 votes [66.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 66.67%

  2. Solved on late models (7 votes [12.28%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.28%

  3. Unknown (12 votes [21.05%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 21.05%

Was the weak final drive problem ever solved on specialist types? (JagdPanther, BergePanther)

  1. It was never solved (20 votes [35.09%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 35.09%

  2. It was solved on late JP's / BP's (19 votes [33.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  3. Unknown (18 votes [31.58%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 31.58%

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collimatrix #41 Posted Aug 14 2014 - 05:52

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We still don't have an answer for CaptainNemo's question; why was producing more machinery for cutting planetary gears so apparently difficult?

 

The Germans were short on tungsten carbide, but it is not obvious to me that a machine for cutting planetary gears would require more tungsten carbide than a more generalized piece of machinery.  The WC is only used in the actual tool head.

 

This is especially puzzling when one considers that the Heydekampf debrief mentions an epicyclic transmission for the tiger II!



CaptianNemo_VA_ #42 Posted Aug 14 2014 - 06:10

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You should also remember that this is Ore and not physical tons of Tungsten metal.

https://archive.org/...e/n519/mode/2up

 

Interesting read.

 

1943 Steel industry used 10,000 tons of Tungsten(not Ore). 80% of which went into making cutting tools.


Edited by CaptianNemo_VA_, Aug 14 2014 - 06:13.


Daigensui #43 Posted Aug 14 2014 - 06:13

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View Postcollimatrix, on Aug 13 2014 - 21:52, said:

We still don't have an answer for CaptainNemo's question; why was producing more machinery for cutting planetary gears so apparently difficult?

 

The Germans were short on tungsten carbide, but it is not obvious to me that a machine for cutting planetary gears would require more tungsten carbide than a more generalized piece of machinery.  The WC is only used in the actual tool head.

 

This is especially puzzling when one considers that the Heydekampf debrief mentions an epicyclic transmission for the tiger II!

 

Tungsten was only part of the equation. Precision tools required a whole variety of rare materials, which mostly came from outside of Europe. 



EnsignExpendable #44 Posted Aug 14 2014 - 06:19

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There's a Soviet report I read that talks about Frankenstein's Monster tanks, built from bits and pieces of armour plates captured in different nations. Two plates of the same thickness in the same tank can be completely different in terms of chemical composition, hardness, etc. 

collimatrix #45 Posted Aug 14 2014 - 06:28

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View PostDaigensui, on Aug 14 2014 - 07:13, said:

 

Tungsten was only part of the equation. Precision tools required a whole variety of rare materials, which mostly came from outside of Europe. 

 

 

Such as?



Daigensui #46 Posted Aug 14 2014 - 06:34

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Manganese, nickel, molybdenum, etc.

Anlushac11 #47 Posted Aug 14 2014 - 22:30

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I have read that when Germans were running out of Chrome, Molybdenum, and Nickel they started using Boron and Vanadium for armor plate. The result was still usable armor plate but when penetrated had a tendency to shatter spectacularly.

Slntreaper #48 Posted Aug 14 2014 - 22:37

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I quote Tanks and Armored Fighting Vehicles by Robert Jackson: "Early versions suffered from mechanical problems, borne from a lack of testing."

EARLY versions.  Not late war versions.  Besides, why do you ask, do you want to request an add-on to W.o.T. that makes the Panther's engine break down?



Daigensui #49 Posted Aug 14 2014 - 22:37

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View PostAnlushac11, on Aug 14 2014 - 14:30, said:

I have read that when Germans were running out of Chrome, Molybdenum, and Nickel they started using Boron and Vanadium for armor plate. The result was still usable armor plate but when penetrated had a tendency to shatter spectacularly.

 

We're talking about tools, not armor plates. Follow the discussion.

 

 

View PostTwinTanker2, on Aug 14 2014 - 14:37, said:

I quote Tanks and Armored Fighting Vehicles by Robert Jackson: "Early versions suffered from mechanical problems, borne from a lack of testing."

EARLY versions.  Not late war versions.  Besides, why do you ask, do you want to request an add-on to W.o.T. that makes the Panther's engine break down?

 

Late versions were barely better. 

 

Because this is the part of the forums where we discuss things not necessarily related to WoT.



sehmnn #50 Posted Aug 15 2014 - 00:09

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I think an important thing that has been left out is manpower and skill of the work force. Germany faced manpower issues that the Allies didn't. Part of it came from population base size but also they refused to allow women to be used in the work force. As the war went on more men were pulled from industry and sent to the front lines. Many of these were skilled workers who had to be replaced by less skilled one. The use of slave labor was intended to help offset the shortage of workers but it did nothing to help with the loss of skilled workers, and in many instances made the situation worse.

So if you have a material shortage and now you add in an unskilled workforce what you do have isn't going to be used to it's greatest effect. You can't produce more complex items if your workers are barely able to keep up production on the basic items they are already making.



CaptianNemo_VA_ #51 Posted Aug 15 2014 - 01:27

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Believe it or not there was a shortage of skilled workers on the UK and USA homefront. To the extent that you had very young people "16-18" learning how to fit pipes and much older "50-65" people coming out of retirement, who used to do pipe fitting, to fit pipes. And pipe fitting is just one example.

 

As for Germany, companies did complain and generally did try to keep their skilled workers and exceptions for service were granted for at least some workers.


Edited by CaptianNemo_VA_, Aug 15 2014 - 01:28.


EnsignExpendable #52 Posted Aug 15 2014 - 02:10

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There was such a shortage of skilled workers in the Soviet Union that those who remained in the factories were literally untouchable. They could loaf about, show up to work late, and all factory management could do was threaten to decrease their rations, which they could not do without a trial.

Bexar #53 Posted Aug 15 2014 - 02:54

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From Spielberger, Walter (1993). The Panther & Its Variants. West Chester: Schiffer Publishing.

 

To achieve the goal of higher production rates, numerous simplifications were made to the design and its manufacture. This process was aggressively pushed forward, sometimes against the wishes of designers and army officers, by the Chief Director of Armament and War Production, Karl Otto Saur (who worked under, and later succeeded, Reichminister Speer). Consequently, the final drive was changed to a double spur system. Although much simpler to produce, the double spur gears had inherently higher internal impact and stress loads, making them prone to failure under the high torque requirements of the heavy Panther tank. Furthermore, high quality steel intended for double spur system was not available for mass production, and was replaced by  tempered steel, which was unsuitable for high-stress gear.

 

Also from Spielberger

Compounding these problems was the fact that the final drive's housing and gear mountings were too weak because of the type of steel used and/or the tight space allotted for the final drive. The final gear mountings deformed easily under the high torque and stress loads, pushing the gears out of alignment and resulting in failure.The final gear housing was eventually replaced with a stronger one, while the final gear problem was never solved.


Edited by Bexar, Aug 15 2014 - 02:57.


Zinegata #54 Posted Aug 15 2014 - 02:56

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View PostTwinTanker2, on Aug 15 2014 - 05:37, said:

I quote Tanks and Armored Fighting Vehicles by Robert Jackson: "Early versions suffered from mechanical problems, borne from a lack of testing."

EARLY versions.  Not late war versions.  Besides, why do you ask, do you want to request an add-on to W.o.T. that makes the Panther's engine break down?

 

And we've never actually seen any real proof of this. As late as June '44 half of Panthers recovered by the Americans still had broken final drives.

 

This is an improvement over "sets itself on fire somtimes", but it's still a very serious problem that doesn't make the Panther truly reliable.



sehmnn #55 Posted Aug 15 2014 - 03:04

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View PostCaptianNemo_VA_, on Aug 14 2014 - 20:27, said:

Believe it or not there was a shortage of skilled workers on the UK and USA homefront. To the extent that you had very young people "16-18" learning how to fit pipes and much older "50-65" people coming out of retirement, who used to do pipe fitting, to fit pipes. And pipe fitting is just one example.

 

As for Germany, companies did complain and generally did try to keep their skilled workers and exceptions for service were granted for at least some workers.

I know there was a shortage for the Allies as well, but they didn't have the desperate late war shortages that Germany did.

 

View PostEnsignExpendable, on Aug 14 2014 - 21:10, said:

There was such a shortage of skilled workers in the Soviet Union that those who remained in the factories were literally untouchable. They could loaf about, show up to work late, and all factory management could do was threaten to decrease their rations, which they could not do without a trial.

Well the Russians weren't overly concerned with quality production as much as quantity. A welder who is taking time to do his job correctly doesn't leave gaps wide enough to see through between armor plates.


Edited by Evil_Closet_Monkey, Aug 15 2014 - 03:09.


EnsignExpendable #56 Posted Aug 15 2014 - 03:43

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A welder that leaves gaps between armour plates goes to prison for sabotaging the war effort. The proper way to weld two plates together had a seam on the outside, a filler on the inside, and two seams across the filler. I've seen some tanks in museums with gaps in the armour, yes, but those were reconstructed from bits and pieces of blown up tanks picked out of a swamp. 

Walter_Sobchak #57 Posted Aug 15 2014 - 05:03

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View PostTwinTanker2, on Aug 14 2014 - 17:37, said:

I quote Tanks and Armored Fighting Vehicles by Robert Jackson: "Early versions suffered from mechanical problems, borne from a lack of testing."

EARLY versions.  Not late war versions.  Besides, why do you ask, do you want to request an add-on to W.o.T. that makes the Panther's engine break down?


 You mean this book?  I have a copy, picked it up cheap at Barnes and Noble a few years ago.  It's terrible. I would trust wikipedia more than that book. 



CaptianNemo_VA_ #58 Posted Aug 15 2014 - 05:04

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View PostEnsignExpendable, on Aug 14 2014 - 19:43, said:

A welder that leaves gaps between armour plates goes to prison for sabotaging the war effort. The proper way to weld two plates together had a seam on the outside, a filler on the inside, and two seams across the filler. I've seen some tanks in museums with gaps in the armour, yes, but those were reconstructed from bits and pieces of blown up tanks picked out of a swamp. 


Other then dropping the finish work on welds and dropping the smoothing and finishing of the outsides of turrets, compared to early production, everything I have heard has said that the Russian made tanks, while made quickly, were made decently. Although comparing Czech and Russian vehicles of the same make and model, post war production, it is clear who took more time with the finish work.



CaptianNemo_VA_ #59 Posted Aug 15 2014 - 05:10

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View PostTwinTanker2, on Aug 14 2014 - 14:37, said:

I quote Tanks and Armored Fighting Vehicles by Robert Jackson: "Early versions suffered from mechanical problems, borne from a lack of testing."

EARLY versions.  Not late war versions.  Besides, why do you ask, do you want to request an add-on to W.o.T. that makes the Panther's engine break down?

 

Also to be COMPLETELY fair... Every tank's early version tended to suffer from mechanical problems when there was a lack of testing. Even with testing tanks suffered in the first few models. Also on the HL 230 engine, the HL 230 at the time was NEW and production plans, to use the phrase, "skimmed on the metal" they used 4 bearings when they could have made it more reliable and divided the stress over more of the engine by using 5 and a long list of crap in the same boat. But... again to be fair... they thought they could get away with it and spread resources over a greater number of engines while still getting and meeting the minimum desired time between overhauls. This was not to be the case.

 

When talking about the tank its not JUST about the tank... but the whole package from engine, to transmission to suspension, to politics, to resources, to the gun, ammunition, gun sights, COMFORT (ofc), to production issues, to the armor quality, to the design, to more politics... and whatever else is missing...


Edited by CaptianNemo_VA_, Aug 15 2014 - 05:14.


Krieger_07b #60 Posted Aug 15 2014 - 18:11

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View PostWalter_Sobchak, on Aug 14 2014 - 23:03, said:


 You mean this book?  I have a copy, picked it up cheap at Barnes and Noble a few years ago.  It's terrible. I would trust wikipedia more than that book. 

Every day until they like it.






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