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maximizing damage


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Nis #1 Posted May 20 2011 - 00:35

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What is difference between penetration and damage type?

Is this saying a penetrating shot could kill a crew member, ammo rack, or engine where as damage will only effect outside of the tank such as tracks?

Sadukar09 #2 Posted May 20 2011 - 00:46

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Penetration is a gun's ability to penetrate armour. A gun with 100mm max penetration will not be able to penetrate 101mm of armour. Damage type for a gun can either be AP or HE. AP just does damage listed when it penetrates, it can take out crew or modules in its path. HE has less penetration, if it does not penetrate, damage is cut by 50%, then a heatwave from the shell can go through the tank and kill crew. (e.g. Driver's viewport) If HE does penetrate, it will do full damage listed, as well as having extra chance of damaging modules. HE damage is also reduced by 15% if target has a spall liner, whereas AP is not affected.

AllPower5 #3 Posted May 20 2011 - 00:57

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When the voice yell "Penetration", it gives me a hardon. LOL. Sound like DP. LOL   :D

Conkker #4 Posted May 20 2011 - 01:01

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the Penetration numbers as well as the Armor thickness numbers do not take into account slope of the Armor.

Nis #5 Posted May 20 2011 - 01:22

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View PostConkker, on May 20 2011 - 01:01, said:

the Penetration numbers as well as the Armor thickness numbers do not take into account slope of the Armor.

are you saying, if I am shooting at the side of at tank with 100mm armour at 45 degrees chances are I will not get though the armour?

SHISHKABOB #6 Posted May 20 2011 - 02:59

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Basically. Here's a drawing. [attachment=12015:angled.png]

Imagine the two black lines are the insides and outsides of a tank's armor. The red line is the path of a shell fired from a tank at our armor. The dotted red line is the armor that the shell must penetrate in order to damage our tank. The blue line is the path of a shell fired from a tank that is also shooting at us, but he is shooting at us from an angle. The dotted blue line is the armor that the shell must penetrate in order to damage our tank.

Notice how much longer the dotted blue line is than the dotted red line. This is the most magical part of tank warfare. Angling will make you live oh so much longer because it drastically improves your chances of bouncing an enemy shell. All you have to do is point your tank a little bit to the left or right of an enemy tank and you will get this effect.

A thing to mention as well is something called shell normalization. Basically it just means that a shell will decrease its angle of impact by 10 degrees by "digging in" to the armor of the tank.

Another thing to point out is that if the enemy shell hits your armor at an extreme angle, way more than the blue one, then the shell automatically bounces. So even your puny loltraktor can bounce a mighty IS-7 shell. Actually it can't because there's also a thing called overmatch. There are two kinds of overmatch in WoT. The first is when the caliber, or shell size, which is the little 7.5cm or 90mm or 107mm that you see (sorry if I'm treating you like a tard and you're a tank buff, I can't take any chances), is three times greater than the thickness of the armor. When this happens then there is no chance to ricochet and you will penetrate. So like a 107mm shell from a KV-3 hitting a PzIII from the side, 30mm. I'm going to assume that it hits dead-on. 30mm times three is only 90mm, thus overmatch occurs and the shell penetrates.

The other kind of overmatch is when the penetration value of the shell is twice the armor thickness. We find ourselves in the same situation. The 107mm on the KV-3 has a penetration of 167mm, which is way more than twice the armor thickness of the PzIII.

Penetration values that you see on your gun's stat sheet are actually not concrete values. The 167mm that I used just then is actually the average penetration value of the KV-3. When your shell hits its target, there is actually a little random dice roll that goes on. The penetration of the 107, and every gun in the game, varies by 25% up and down. Thus the 107mm has a standard penetration of about 125 mm to about 209mm.

Now, since we killed that PzIII dead, let's point our gun at that PzIV over there. This tank is now angled. I'm going to use some geometry here. Refer to the next image I've attached (please excuse my awful artistry).

[attachment=12016:angles.png]

The red line sticks out at 90 degrees, it is called the normal. We're assuming that the front of this tank is a flat wall of steel, which it's not, but that's a little confusing for this exercise. We care about the blue angle I've denoted, with blue. It is the angle between the normal and the path of your shell. The bigger this angle gets, the more likely it is that your shell will bounce! Now, If you refer to my last image, remember that with the change in angle, the amount of armor that needs to be traveled through also increases. I don't know if you've taken trigonometry before, but we're going to use a magical little trigonometric mathematical function called the cosine function. Basically, you take the cosine of the angle, divide the thickness of the armor by that number, and you'll get your new thickness! SO: Let us say that the angle is at 70 degrees. The shell normalizes! That turns your angle into 60 degrees. Front armor of a PzIV is 80mm so, 80mm/Cos(60degrees) = 160mm! This means that your PzIV suddenly has an effective armor value of 160mm against this shot! The PzIV has an average chance of deflecting the shot.

Now: there are more things to take into consideration than just this. There is also the distance to your target. This is actually a major thing. At 100m, according to the wiki, your shell has the normal plus or minus 25% to its penetration. When you start going beyond that, things get shitty. At 500m the penetration goes down by about 20% to 25%. Then it ALSO has the plus or minus 25%. The decrease to -20% to your penetration value is linear, which means that halfway between 100m and 500m (300m) you get -10%, at 200m you get -5%, 400m gets you -15%, etc.

So let's say you're at 400m from the PzIV when you took that shot. This means your penetration goes down by 15% from 167mm. So like 142mm. Then you've got your plus or minus 25% which leaves you with 106mm to 178mm. As you can see, this has drastically decreased your chances of penetrating that PzIV!

Hope this helps. Basically worry about your distance to the target and how they are angled. Don't shoot if they are angled well, try to reposition yourself so that you are shooting along the normal, perpendicularly to his armor.

DemonicSpoon #7 Posted May 20 2011 - 03:00

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Yes. You can calculate the "effective armor" by dividing the amount of armor at a location by the cosine of the angle of the armor from the plane perpendicular to the shell's direction.

For example, think of a Tiger...imagine you shoot it straight on. Its armor is flat; e.g. a zero degree angle from the vertical plane. The cosine of zero is one... So, you'd divide the armor amount (100mm) by 1 and get...100.

on the other hand, let's say the Tiger has angled himself at a 45 degree angle. 100 / cos(45) is about 140...So unless you had 140mm of penetration, you would not go through.


Basically, the closer your shell comes to hitting the armor perfectly straight on, the less armor penetration you will need to penetrate. This is why the T-34 is deceptively hard to penetrate. It only has 45mm of armor, but the slope on the front means that it has significantly more in practice. The Panther and the King Tiger are other good examples.


Now..here's how damage works. When an AP shell hits a target, it first has to penetrate to do any damage to the enemy tank or modules...Unless the modules are external, like the tracks. If the shell goes through one of the tank's modules or crew, there's a chance that it will take damage and/or be knocked out (Though damage dealt to modules is subtracted from damage dealt to the hull). Each tank is individually modeled to what it was historically, like crew positions and whatnot. For example, if you can find the driver's viewport on the front of a tank, you can hit it to kill their driver (it's also easier to penetrate there).

High Explosive works a bit differently. When they hit, they explode. They are NOT affected by the slope of the armor, but high explosive shells tend to have very poor penetration. HE shells do a lot of damage and are absolutely devastating if they manage to penetrate. If they don't penetrate, then the shell will do UP TO 50% damage, doing less and less based on the difference between the penetration of the shell and the amount of armor it tried to penetrate. So HE shells for most guns are good in two situations...when you're absolutely sure that you can penetrate the target even with HE, and when you can't penetrate the target with AP and want to do at least a little bit of damage.

also, unlike AP shells that try to penetrate exactly where they land, HE shells check the whole area around where they land to see if they penetrate. What this means is that you don't need to be as precise when targeting weakspots with HE shells, as they only need to land nearby.

HE shells do bonus damage to open-topped vehicles like the Marder or the SU-76.



Some guns in the game (notably SPG guns, but also the Panzer III's 75mm, the T-34/85's 122mm...) don't even have AP ammo, or have AP ammo that has barely better penetration than HE. These guns, for their tier, fire very large-caliber rounds and are made to be used primarily (if not exclusively) with high explosive shells. The upside of these is that large caliber HE shells are capable of hurting pretty much anything in the game regardless of armor. The downside is that they have very high reload times and often poor accuracy.




The mechanics for guns are quite complicated, I -think- I explained it properly. Head on over to the wiki or post again if you have any more questions.

SHISHKABOB #8 Posted May 20 2011 - 03:02

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