53 replies to this topic

[Sask_Outrider]

Please note:  If you do not believe you have control over your win rate please read this post: http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/227903-the-ruthless-math-of-wot-and-why-every-tank-matters/

If you still do not believe go find your tin foil hat, put it on, and stop reading this thread.

 

This is a post in a series of posts on what you can do to win more.  Here is a link to the "table of contents" of the series: http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/337049-sask-outriders-want-to-win-more-series/

 

For people that don't know XVM is a mod that indicates to you what level of skill every person in the game has based on their WN8 rating along with other configurable data such as win rate and performance in the tank they are currently driving.  The colors range as follows:

• Red (bottom 60% of all players)
• Orange (60% of players are worse and 25% are better)
• Yellow (75% of players are worse and 15% are better)
• Green (85% of players are worse and 5% are better)
• Blue and Purple (Top 5% of players Purple being the top 0.1% of players)

 

Why is it important to know how good your team mates are and how good your enemy is?  Two words, Reliability, and Predictability.  When you load into a match there will be players that do the right thing to win the game and there will be players that will do the wrong thing.  The probability that a player will do the right thing can be based on their color.  Generally a green or better player will make better decisions in the game.  This is not a certainty but a probability.  Green, blue, and purple players make mistakes like we all do but they make mistakes far less often.  Red and Orange players on the other hand will generally make bad decisions, not because they are stupid, but because they do not know better.  They either lack the experience or the skill to make good decisions.

 

For example:  If I see an enemy pop behind a corner after shooting at me I have one of two choices.

• I can focus the corner and shoot the enemy when he pops again or I can pull back and do something else.
• If it is a red player that is doing the poking around the corner I will most likely focus the corner because I know that they are more than likely going to poke again.
• If it is a green or better player I will most likely not focus the corner because he will most likely know I am focusing the corner, realize that it is a bad idea to poke the corner again and will relocate.

 

Example two: I am in a sticky situation.  I have a tank coming in from my front and there is another one flanking.  I have a team member watching the flank.

• If it is a red player watching my flank I will most likely relocate my tank to ensure I can take on the flank if needed.  It will most likely mean I cannot meet the tank in front head on but I need to worry about my flank.
• If it is a green or better player I will trust that he will take on the flanking tank and allow me to work on the tank that is in front of us.

 

In both examples I could be wrong and lose because of it.  The key is that I am playing the odds.  In Texas Holdem Ace King is always better than 7 4 off suit.  A 7 4 off suit can bet an Ace King but most of the time it will not so you fold.  Same thing in Tanks.

 

The group I have not talked about is the Yellow range.  I find the yellow range to be the transition that all good players had to make from begin a bad player to a good player.  When I look back at my own play when I was yellow I found that I was way better at the top of the yellow range then when I was at the bottom.

 

Thoughts?

 

SaskO

Edited by Sask_Outrider, Sep 23 2014 - 16:48.

[ODAAT_chatbanned]

I agree with the general outline of what you are saying.  XVM can be a legitimate tool for the advanced player to know who he's up against.  Unfortunately most people don't use it for that.

 

I've stopped using XVM for a couple of reasons.  

1. I know the tags.   I've been around long enough to know which tags are threats and which ones aren't.  Heavy involvement in the forums as well, seeing sigs/stats attached to certain clans kinda gives you an idea what you are up against.  
2. All red tanks have guns, and guns do damage.  I worry more about dealing damage without taking it than I do who's shooting.  Obviously a SIMP player doing the shooting is a bigger threat, but again knowing tags allows you to take more care.  With RNG the way it is, and my suspicion (when I feel like wearing some foil) that craptastic players are generally going to get better RNG, anyone can get lucky to treat everyone as a threat.
3. I think it's really crappy what alot of people use XVM for.  Either deciding whether they want to play during the countdown because of some arbitrary number, or using it as a weapon against people.  I see alot more of that than there should be, so I choose not to use it.

 

Honestly I think there is a much better tool to improve your gameplay that I know for a fact 80% of the players under-utilize in every match and that is the minimap.  You can watch the gameplay and it is painfully obvious that people pay absolutely no attention to the minimap.  I have mine blown up huge so that I am always able to see it and keep track of the game flow.  When I'm not driving or shooting I'm looking at the map.  Searching for opportunities to flank, or an obvious spot to capitalize on a poor tank deployment by the reds.  I mean I was just in a match where an SU was camping base and literally 30m behind him a Tiger had gotten into our cap and killed both arty before he even realized it and turned to engage.  There is no excuse for that.  

 

But good post OP, unfortunately, I just don't think the people who need it the most are going to see it

[Crawdad59]

I have done an unofficial survey of my losses. This is an oh DUH statement but in the post game stats there are more damage contributors on the winning team.  I mean the ratio of wins to losses is in favor not of the person with the most damage but to the teams with fewer members with zero damage. If everyone gets some damaging hits the odds shift in their favor I've seen (and had) high caliber but 5 members with zero damage in a loss.  Everyone pull on the rope pls

[Baddy_]

inb4 wild pubbies appear disagreeing with any logical statement.

[Jundaku]

Knowing your enemy and team is always useful.  Basically I configured my XVM to show:
Red < 800

Yellow < 1250

Green < 1600

Dark Green < 1900

Blue < 2350

Purple >= 2350

 

Pretty much anything below 800 is totally useless.  Expect them to not know anything and to be utterly stupid.  If you are yellow I expect you to be stupid 50% of the time.  Greens I expect to be stupid 40% of the time but able to carry their weight.  Now if you are Dark green I expect you to carry your weight and 1-2 other people's.  Blue/Purple = help me carry 5-10 other people.  Now if you are 2900+ WN8 I honestly expect you to not do anything but sit in the back and farm damage and not help with pushes.  

 

You can also expect to see certain skilled players in certain positions.  Dark green, Blues, and Purples are highly predictable.  There's only a limited number of key positions on any given map and you can almost certainly expect those guys to take control of it.  Typically I try to engage the highest threat targets first.  

[DraconX3]

Again, since this is just a repost of the same article that was put up not long ago. Ill say what I said there.

 

All this talk about what to do to "win" is all well and good if the match allows it.

 

But then your team lemmings all down one way, dies in 2 minutes flat and leaves you "protecting" the open flank.

 

This happens over and over again.....Im sure SOME people out there can take on 15 tanks by themselves but yaknow..whatever =X

 

But yeah, totally can control your WR 100% of the time. Totally.  But hey, Im just a casual player with less than 50 billion matches. So what do I know.

[ODAAT_chatbanned]

Jundaku, on Sep 23 2014 - 11:05, said:

....Now if you are 2900+ WN8 I honestly expect you to not do anything but sit in the back and farm damage and not help with pushes....

 

lol so true

[Sask_Outrider]

jonny_ringo, on Sep 23 2014 - 09:52, said:

I agree with the general outline of what you are saying.  XVM can be a legitimate tool for the advanced player to know who he's up against.  Unfortunately most people don't use it for that.

 

I've stopped using XVM for a couple of reasons.  

1. I know the tags.   I've been around long enough to know which tags are threats and which ones aren't.  Heavy involvement in the forums as well, seeing sigs/stats attached to certain clans kinda gives you an idea what you are up against.  
2. All red tanks have guns, and guns do damage.  I worry more about dealing damage without taking it than I do who's shooting.  Obviously a SIMP player doing the shooting is a bigger threat, but again knowing tags allows you to take more care.  With RNG the way it is, and my suspicion (when I feel like wearing some foil) that craptastic players are generally going to get better RNG, anyone can get lucky to treat everyone as a threat.
3. I think it's really crappy what alot of people use XVM for.  Either deciding whether they want to play during the countdown because of some arbitrary number, or using it as a weapon against people.  I see alot more of that than there should be, so I choose not to use it.

 

Honestly I think there is a much better tool to improve your gameplay that I know for a fact 80% of the players under-utilize in every match and that is the minimap.  You can watch the gameplay and it is painfully obvious that people pay absolutely no attention to the minimap.  I have mine blown up huge so that I am always able to see it and keep track of the game flow.  When I'm not driving or shooting I'm looking at the map.  Searching for opportunities to flank, or an obvious spot to capitalize on a poor tank deployment by the reds.  I mean I was just in a match where an SU was camping base and literally 30m behind him a Tiger had gotten into our cap and killed both arty before he even realized it and turned to engage.  There is no excuse for that.  

 

But good post OP, unfortunately, I just don't think the people who need it the most are going to see it

 

Just so you know this is the 39th post in my series of guides.  I cover mini-map use as well as a ton of other topics.

[ODAAT_chatbanned]

Sask_Outrider, on Sep 23 2014 - 11:10, said:

 

Just so you know this is the 39th post in my series of guides.  I cover mini-map use as well as a ton of other topics.

 

thanks for making the effort to help...not alot of that around here

[Sask_Outrider]

DraconX3, on Sep 23 2014 - 10:08, said:

Again, since this is just a repost of the same article that was put up not long ago. Ill say what I said there.

 

All this talk about what to do to "win" is all well and good if the match allows it.

 

But then your team lemmings all down one way, dies in 2 minutes flat and leaves you "protecting" the open flank.

 

This happens over and over again.....Im sure SOME people out there can take on 15 tanks by themselves but yaknow..whatever =X

 

But yeah, totally can control your WR 100% of the time. Totally.  But hey, Im just a casual player with less than 50 billion matches. So what do I know.

 

This is not a re-post.  This is my 39th article in a number of guides I have done.  You clearly did not read the first line in this post.  You clearly take no responsibility for your own actions in games and therefore will never get better.

[Crucis]

Sask_Outrider, on Sep 23 2014 - 11:39, said:

 

 

For people that don't know XVM is a mod that indicates to you what level of skill every person in the game has based on their WN8 rating along with other configurable data such as win rate and performance in the tank they are currently driving.  The colors range as follows:

• Red (bottom 60% of all players)
• Orange (60% of players are worse and 25% are better)
• Yellow (75% of players are worse and 15% are better)
• Green (85% of players are worse and 5% are better)
• Blue and Purple (Top 5% of players Purple being the top 0.1% of players)

 

Why is it important to know how good your team mates are and how good your enemy is?  Two words, Reliability, and Predictability.  When you load into a match there will be players that do the right thing to win the game and there will be players that will do the wrong thing.  The probability that a player will do the right thing can be based on their color.  Generally a green or better player will make better decisions in the game.  This is not a certainty but a probability.  Green, blue, and purple players make mistakes like we all do but they make mistakes far less often.  Red and Orange players on the other hand will generally make bad decisions, not because they are stupid, but because they do not know better.  They either lack the experience or the skill to make good decisions.

 

For example:  If I see an enemy pop behind a corner after shooting at me I have one of two choices.

• I can focus the corner and shoot the enemy when he pops again or I can pull back and do something else.
• If it is a red player that is doing the poking around the corner I will most likely focus the corner because I know that they are more than likely going to poke again.
• If it is a green or better player I will most likely not focus the corner because he will most likely know I am focusing the corner, realize that it is a bad idea to poke the corner again and will relocate.

 

Example two: I am in a sticky situation.  I have a tank coming in from my front and there is another one flanking.  I have a team member watching the flank.

• If it is a red player watching my flank I will most likely relocate my tank to ensure I can take on the flank if needed.  It will most likely mean I cannot meet the tank in front head on but I need to worry about my flank.
• If it is a green or better player I will trust that he will take on the flanking tank and allow me to work on the tank that is in front of us.

 

In both examples I could be wrong and lose because of it.  The key is that I am playing the odds.  In Texas Holdem Ace King is always better than 7 4 off suit.  A 7 4 off suit can bet an Ace King but most of the time it will not so you fold.  Same thing in Tanks.

 

The group I have not talked about is the Yellow range.  I find the yellow range to be the transition that all good players had to make from begin a bad player to a good player.  When I look back at my own play when I was yellow I found that I was way better at the top of the yellow range then THAN when I was at the bottom.

 

Thoughts?

 

SaskO

 

I do what you suggest .... to a degree.  I don't make every decision in game based on the XVM stats of potential targets.  I do tend to try to pay attention to which enemy player is the best, if I'm in a battle where there's a single obvious better player who stands way above the rest.

 

For example, in a battle where the enemy is mostly reds and oranges, a single green (or better) player is an obviously better player, and it's worth keeping an eye on him.  (Maybe even pointing him out to the rest of the team as a priority target.)  I don't go out of my way to go after such players, but if I do come across such a player in my travels on the battlefield, I'll probably pay special attention him, and if wounded, make certain to deliver the kill shot to get him off the map.

 

Generally speaking though, I tend to use XVM's color rankings to know which team mate(s) I can rely on, and whom to assist.  I prefer assisting better players because I feel that they can be relied upon to generally not play stupidly, so I'll often follow them if they're in a similar tank to the one I'm playing.  I try not to get in their way, and give them room to work (because that's what I'd want in their place), but I do stay close enough to support them.  And sometimes, if you have a platoon of 3 good players in mediums, and I'm in a medium as well, it doesn't hurt to make yourself a de facto 4th member of their platoon, if they look like they're trying to operate as a wolf pack.

 

 

[Blitskrieg_War]

Just remember that everyone has those battles where they weren't able to do damage. Even people that are purple will have those battles.

[Sask_Outrider]

Crucis, on Sep 23 2014 - 10:16, said:

 

I do what you suggest .... to a degree.  I don't make every decision in game based on the XVM stats of potential targets.  I do tend to try to pay attention to which enemy player is the best, if I'm in a battle where there's a single obvious better player who stands way above the rest.

 

For example, in a battle where the enemy is mostly reds and oranges, a single green (or better) player is an obviously better player, and it's worth keeping an eye on him.  (Maybe even pointing him out to the rest of the team as a priority target.)  I don't go out of my way to go after such players, but if I do come across such a player in my travels on the battlefield, I'll probably pay special attention him, and if wounded, make certain to deliver the kill shot to get him off the map.

 

Generally speaking though, I tend to use XVM's color rankings to know which team mate(s) I can rely on, and whom to assist.  I prefer assisting better players because I feel that they can be relied upon to generally not play stupidly, so I'll often follow them if they're in a similar tank to the one I'm playing.  I try not to get in their way, and give them room to work (because that's what I'd want in their place), but I do stay close enough to support them.  And sometimes, if you have a platoon of 3 good players in mediums, and I'm in a medium as well, it doesn't hurt to make yourself a de facto 4th member of their platoon, if they look like they're trying to operate as a wolf pack.

 

 

 

I completely agree with you.  I just did not want to come up with too many examples.  The key to this game is to always take out the most dangerous tank and generally the most dangerous tank is driven by the good players.

[_Walter_]

I've found the chances of winning predictions to be less accurate since WN8.  This is anecdotal, but nonetheless my observation.  Unfortunately too many players use XVM only for that one purpose and then either get discouraged or over confident.  Anyway, as the OP points out, XVM is valuable in assessing other players.  This thread has opened up a question that conflicts my playing.  I will often follow the better players knowing there's a better chance of being able to cover each other, focused fire, etc..  This sometimes reduces the amount of damage I'm able to farm simply because the other players get the hits in first.  Not a big deal as long as our team is getting the hits.  The downside to this is too often the other flank is under defended.  If at the opening I see one side is really weak, I'll often go to the weak side rather than with the better players.  Too often I then end up being the targeted tank and my survival rate is diminished.  Not sure there's and answer for which is the best course of action?

[EliteSwatTeam]

I don't use XVM, never have I kill Threats. If you are trying to take my base or kill my Arty you are subject to some hostile fire power coming down on you. You can tell good players, by the way they position themselves and the use of cover. Impatient or inexperienced Tankers usually stop and fight in the open. 

 

[2NDIV] Commander EliteSwatTeam

[Crucis]

Sask_Outrider, on Sep 23 2014 - 12:25, said:

Crucis, on Sep 23 2014 - 10:16, said:

 

I do what you suggest .... to a degree.  I don't make every decision in game based on the XVM stats of potential targets.  I do tend to try to pay attention to which enemy player is the best, if I'm in a battle where there's a single obvious better player who stands way above the rest.

 

For example, in a battle where the enemy is mostly reds and oranges, a single green (or better) player is an obviously better player, and it's worth keeping an eye on him.  (Maybe even pointing him out to the rest of the team as a priority target.)  I don't go out of my way to go after such players, but if I do come across such a player in my travels on the battlefield, I'll probably pay special attention him, and if wounded, make certain to deliver the kill shot to get him off the map.

 

Generally speaking though, I tend to use XVM's color rankings to know which team mate(s) I can rely on, and whom to assist.  I prefer assisting better players because I feel that they can be relied upon to generally not play stupidly, so I'll often follow them if they're in a similar tank to the one I'm playing.  I try not to get in their way, and give them room to work (because that's what I'd want in their place), but I do stay close enough to support them.  And sometimes, if you have a platoon of 3 good players in mediums, and I'm in a medium as well, it doesn't hurt to make yourself a de facto 4th member of their platoon, if they look like they're trying to operate as a wolf pack.

 

 

 

I completely agree with you.  I just did not want to come up with too many examples.  The key to this game is to always take out the most dangerous tank and generally the most dangerous tank is driven by the good players.

 

 

This is probably true most of the time.  OTOH, there do seem to be times when it's best to try to wipe out all the weakest tanks and players really quickly to deny the best enemy players/tanks their cannon fodder "protection" so that you can overwhelm them later. 

 

Let me give an overly simplified example.

 

Say that you see a group of 3 enemy tanks one good player in a good tank, and 2 clearly weaker players in decent enough tanks.  Those lesser players are providing some cover for the better enemy player.  Covering his flanks and back, for example.  If the better player is proving to be a tough nut to crack, perhaps taking out his 2 weaker buddies first would make it easier to take out the better player afterwards.

 

Note that I'm not saying to give the better players free rein.  But if you're faced with taking a kill shot on a weak player or a merely a roughly 400 dp shot on a very healthy better player, it probably better to take out the weaker player first to get his gun off the field and weaken the better player's "support structure".

 

Of course, at this point, I suppose that it's getting down to debating the minor details, and everything becomes very situational.

 

 

[Tankthief]

I tend to take decisions based on enemy/friend XVM as well. My line of thought is:

 

- Chances a Red friendly player will have a good game, hit enemies and help me? Slim

- Chances a Blue friendly  player will have a good gane? Much Better

- Chances  Red enemy player will hit me, flank me, push me.....smaller but totally unpredictable

- Chances a Blue Enemy will hit weakspots, flank and push me....100% if opportunity presents

 

In the end, Blues and Purple and EXTREMELLY predictable on map locations but will play very well there while Reds can rush you out of [edited]places, but won´t be able to control the flank because they stop, camp, don´t go back to defend, ...

 

 

 

[1Sherman]

Sask_Outrider, on Sep 23 2014 - 16:39, said:

Please note:  If you do not believe you have control over your win rate please read this post: http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/227903-the-ruthless-math-of-wot-and-why-every-tank-matters/

If you still do not believe go find your tin foil hat, put it on, and stop reading this thread.

 

This is a post in a series of posts on what you can do to win more.  Here is a link to the "table of contents" of the series: http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/337049-sask-outriders-want-to-win-more-series/

 

For people that don't know XVM is a mod that indicates to you what level of skill every person in the game has based on their WN8 rating along with other configurable data such as win rate and performance in the tank they are currently driving.  The colors range as follows:

• Red (bottom 60% of all players)
• Orange (60% of players are worse and 25% are better)
• Yellow (75% of players are worse and 15% are better)
• Green (85% of players are worse and 5% are better)
• Blue and Purple (Top 5% of players Purple being the top 0.1% of players)

 

Why is it important to know how good your team mates are and how good your enemy is?  Two words, Reliability, and Predictability.  When you load into a match there will be players that do the right thing to win the game and there will be players that will do the wrong thing.  The probability that a player will do the right thing can be based on their color.  Generally a green or better player will make better decisions in the game.  This is not a certainty but a probability.  Green, blue, and purple players make mistakes like we all do but they make mistakes far less often.  Red and Orange players on the other hand will generally make bad decisions, not because they are stupid, but because they do not know better.  They either lack the experience or the skill to make good decisions.

 

For example:  If I see an enemy pop behind a corner after shooting at me I have one of two choices.

• I can focus the corner and shoot the enemy when he pops again or I can pull back and do something else.
• If it is a red player that is doing the poking around the corner I will most likely focus the corner because I know that they are more than likely going to poke again.
• If it is a green or better player I will most likely not focus the corner because he will most likely know I am focusing the corner, realize that it is a bad idea to poke the corner again and will relocate.

 

Example two: I am in a sticky situation.  I have a tank coming in from my front and there is another one flanking.  I have a team member watching the flank.

• If it is a red player watching my flank I will most likely relocate my tank to ensure I can take on the flank if needed.  It will most likely mean I cannot meet the tank in front head on but I need to worry about my flank.
• If it is a green or better player I will trust that he will take on the flanking tank and allow me to work on the tank that is in front of us.

 

In both examples I could be wrong and lose because of it.  The key is that I am playing the odds.  In Texas Holdem Ace King is always better than 7 4 off suit.  A 7 4 off suit can bet an Ace King but most of the time it will not so you fold.  Same thing in Tanks.

 

The group I have not talked about is the Yellow range.  I find the yellow range to be the transition that all good players had to make from begin a bad player to a good player.  When I look back at my own play when I was yellow I found that I was way better at the top of the yellow range then when I was at the bottom.

 

Thoughts?

 

SaskO

What do you do if you computer stinks and installing XVM will only make your FPS worse?

[Dunfalach]

DraconX3, on Sep 23 2014 - 12:08, said:

Again, since this is just a repost of the same article that was put up not long ago. Ill say what I said there.

 

All this talk about what to do to "win" is all well and good if the match allows it.

 

But then your team lemmings all down one way, dies in 2 minutes flat and leaves you "protecting" the open flank.

 

This happens over and over again.....Im sure SOME people out there can take on 15 tanks by themselves but yaknow..whatever =X

 

But yeah, totally can control your WR 100% of the time. Totally.  But hey, Im just a casual player with less than 50 billion matches. So what do I know.

 

There are always going to be those matches. And purples get them too. Look at Junkadu. He wins 68% of his matches, which puts him very very high up the list. Last I saw, the average was hovering around 47-48%, so that means as a purple level player he wins about 20% more matches than an average player. Chances are, not all of those 20% were decided by his skill alone, because there are other factors. But a 20% difference is large enough statistically to indicate he must be playing this game notably better than the average person. Nobody has 100% control of their win rate, or the purple level win rate would be 95-100% instead of in the 60s and up. But the better you become at making decisions and the more info you give yourself to make those decisions, the more influence you have on your win rate. I still have 20-30% win rate days where my teams just refuse to be influenced at all. But my average for my last thousand battles or so is staying consistently in the lower 50s since I started studying the game mechanics and understanding how to make use of XVM information to make better decisions. The more you learn, the more influence you'll have, because the more often you'll see those decisive moments where one action can turn the tide.

 

For instance: A few weeks ago, I won a tier IX match with a lemming team in a T21, due in part to XVM. Why? Because XVM's last spotted marker on the minimap made me realize every surviving enemy tank was accounted for except the artillery. It told me that no enemy tanks had been seen in the middle since an early kill, and that the surviving enemies were all clustered up grinding our last 3 or 4 defenders into dust.  XVM also told me that those last 3 or 4 defenders were yellow to green skill, and in choke points, so they had a chance of holding out just a little longer because they probably knew enough to survive another minute or two. The vanilla client told me that every surviving enemy was a slow tank. And they had plowed through the bad players on my team so rapidly that they were fighting far from their own base. Game knowledge told me my T21 was not going to turn the tide with its gun or armor. So I dove through the middle, hunted down the enemy arty, killed it, and looked at the minimap again. Every enemy accounted for, so I ran full speed into their cap circle and hid in the most inaccessible part of it. Capped out just before the least sluggish enemy could get in spotting range of my little light tank motionless in cover. A win that my team did not deserve.

 

Only partially due to XVM, since I could still have made the same decision with the vanilla client. But it's less likely that I *would* have made the decision without XVM (or at least another mod that had last spotted locations), because I would not have seen the pattern that said there was an opening without XVM. I was too busy in a tight little duel before that point to have kept track of where the enemy tanks were. And I would not have had the confidence that the last couple of allied tankers could hold out, if not for XVM telling me their skill. I might have tried it anyway, but I would have done so much less boldly. And as it was, just a couple of seconds delay could have cost me that enemy resetting me and a loss.

[FirstOfOne]

Stats r luk