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The Chieftain's Hatch: Fury's Tiger Standoff


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Content_WG #1 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 17:28

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A couple of musings on the Tiger/Sherman matchup in the new movie.

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Lert #2 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 17:37

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"German philosophy was to shoot at a tank until it burned or changed shape." This amuses me for some reason.

Blackhorse_Six_ #3 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 17:40

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View PostLert, on Sep 27 2014 - 12:37, said:

"German philosophy was to shoot at a tank until it burned or changed shape." This amuses me for some reason.

 

My very first TC imparted the same wisdom to me ... a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away ...

 

Shoot 'em 'til they Burn ...



BountyHunter177 #4 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 18:01

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Apparently I've been living under a rock in the Silesian Confederation. Good to know.

flounder2760 #5 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 18:22

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View PostBountyHunter177, on Sep 27 2014 - 19:01, said:

Apparently I've been living under a rock in the Silesian Confederation. Good to know.

 

its cool to know the chieftain is a fan of the honorverse/honor harrington novels.

2h_company #6 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 18:29

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The movie definitely puts a very dramatic spin on the scene. The two tanks meeting in such close quarters is already strange to begin with. The scene looks great though!

 

The site post, however, did surprise with the following like "more likely to spot the enemy first due to proliferation of optics." The Germans had the best optics during the war and would very unlikely be outclassed by the American tech. Only in the end of the war, when the resources began to be scarce, the Americans would take an upper hand over running out of steam Germans.

 

The 88 famous cannon was one of the most effective guns throughout the war. So the two would have chances of winning in that situation.


Edited by 2h_company, Sep 27 2014 - 18:30.


The_Chieftain #7 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 18:37

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View Post2h_company, on Sep 27 2014 - 18:29, said:

The movie definitely puts a very dramatic spin on the scene. The two tanks meeting in such close quarters is already strange to begin with. The scene looks great though!

 

The site post, however, did surprise with the following like "more likely to spot the enemy first due to proliferation of optics." The Germans had the best optics during the war and would very unlikely be outclassed by the American tech. Only in the end of the war, when the resources began to be scarce, the Americans would take an upper hand over running out of steam Germans.

 

The 88 famous cannon was one of the most effective guns throughout the war. So the two would have chances of winning in that situation.

 

"Proliferation" does not equal "Quality."

 

What does a Tiger (or Panther) gunner have which is equivalent to the Sherman gunner's unity periscope, for example? How much of a sector can the bow gunner observe on Tiger vs Sherman? How about the loader? Tiger gunner's fantasticly ground, super-clear through-mantlet telescope can still only scan what the engagement telescope is looking at (and then not from a turret-down position)



LordCommanderMilitant #8 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 18:45

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View Post2h_company, on Sep 27 2014 - 19:29, said:

The movie definitely puts a very dramatic spin on the scene. The two tanks meeting in such close quarters is already strange to begin with. The scene looks great though!

 

The site post, however, did surprise with the following like "more likely to spot the enemy first due to proliferation of optics." The Germans had the best optics during the war and would very unlikely be outclassed by the American tech. Only in the end of the war, when the resources began to be scarce, the Americans would take an upper hand over running out of steam Germans.

 

The 88 famous cannon was one of the most effective guns throughout the war. So the two would have chances of winning in that situation.

 

IIRC, it had something to do with the layout of the gunsights that made them easier to aim and less cluttered.

 

IIRC, The US also had better all-round vision, the Germans were horribly blind outside their little field of view.



tanKDUD #9 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 18:56

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I have seen a couple trailers on T.V

Walter_Sobchak #10 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 19:00

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Great article Chieftain.

Daigensui #11 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 19:13

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Block Quote

Well, let’s just say one would have legitimate concerns for the resale value of the German tank after such an encounter.

 

Goodbye Kitty =(



maxw007 #12 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 19:16

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I find that it just another way to show off and brag about America again!!

 

There is no hero's in war  only those that Survive it and those that do not and the Tales they leave behind.

Look at the exploits of Michelle Whittman and his Exploits in the Tiger One.This was a Hero of the German people .He Died in Battle and he is  almost forgotten because he was on the Wrong Side .Why not make a Movie about him just like the Crew of the Tank Fury except in his Tiger 007. This is a Well documented bibliography with one who just fought against other soldiers and used his cunning and experience to Protect not just himself but his whole crew as well.

Politics and the way we see history is not as Open Minded as it should be.

Tigers were a Quality Tank!! True Over engineered and  only made in small quantities  but they were a Shock to the Allied Tankers !!

Give Credit where Credit is do  and let history speak for itself in a Clear and Non Clouded manner.

If the Tiger was Made as made in Greater Quantity like the American Tanks the outcome might have been different and this standoff and its  outcome might have been different as well.


 

Just a Thought on this Subject


 


 



rogue_viking #13 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 19:22

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Sorry chieftan, The last point you made about the Tiger having trouble 1v1 w a sherman (minus the 105mm firefly) is false. There are countless reports from BOTH sides where shermans bounced dozens of shells off of a Tiger and had no effect. The Shermans advantage was the sheer weight of numbers. The Germans just couldnt keep up with being surrounded 15:1 (as you did point out the weak side/rear armor). That was how most Tigers (and Tiger II's) were brought down during the war by enemy fire. Most often tho, it was due to the complex mechanisms breaking with no ability for a field repair or simply running out of fuel. Bottom line, a heads up fight Sherman vs Tiger = dead Sherman. But I did like the article and I do agree with a lot of your other points. Plus I do intend to see the movie as it does look good for a Hollywood dramatization.



Blackhorse_Six_ #14 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 19:25

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View Postmaxw007, on Sep 27 2014 - 14:16, said:

Just a Thought on this Subject

 

You seem to have read, and believed, too much post-war propaganda ...

 

Pick-up a more authoritative book about the Tiger like the volume by Thomas L. Jentz ...

 

You'll need a little money ...



LordCommanderMilitant #15 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 19:27

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View Postrogue_viking, on Sep 27 2014 - 20:22, said:

Sorry chieftan, The last point you made about the Tiger having trouble 1v1 w a sherman (minus the 105mm firefly) is false. There are countless reports from BOTH sides where shermans bounced dozens of shells off of a Tiger and had no effect. The Shermans advantage was the sheer weight of numbers. The Germans just couldnt keep up with being surrounded 15:1 (as you did point out the weak side/rear armor). That was how most Tigers (and Tiger II's) were brought down during the war by enemy fire. Most often tho, it was due to the complex mechanisms breaking with no ability for a field repair or simply running out of fuel. Bottom line, a heads up fight Sherman vs Tiger = dead Sherman. But I did like the article and I do agree with a lot of your other points. Plus I do intend to see the movie as it does look good for a Hollywood dramatization.

 

Cheiftain's right: the Sherman 76 could take down a Tiger E, and decently reliably, especially if it got the drop on the Tiger. The 75's had trouble.

SFC_Storm #16 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 19:29

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View Postrogue_viking, on Sep 27 2014 - 11:22, said:

Sorry chieftan, The last point you made about the Tiger having trouble 1v1 w a sherman (minus the 105mm firefly) is false. There are countless reports from BOTH sides where shermans bounced dozens of shells off of a Tiger and had no effect. The Shermans advantage was the sheer weight of numbers. The Germans just couldnt keep up with being surrounded 15:1 (as you did point out the weak side/rear armor). That was how most Tigers (and Tiger II's) were brought down during the war by enemy fire. Most often tho, it was due to the complex mechanisms breaking with no ability for a field repair or simply running out of fuel. Bottom line, a heads up fight Sherman vs Tiger = dead Sherman. But I did like the article and I do agree with a lot of your other points. Plus I do intend to see the movie as it does look good for a Hollywood dramatization.

 

Lol the  History Pubbie vs the Actual tanker/History Professional.

 

You are one oif the ones who has read over and over the dominance and superiority of the glorious Tiger.

 

Sorry but after 4+ years here I have seen literally 1 thousand guys try to prove these things by using "SS Journals" and Chief refute them everytime.

 

15:1 is simply not true, as well.....In fact all you are saying is pretty much right out of the History channel and not real data.

 

Also the reason why the TIgers worried about there sides was the Sherman was 2 times as fast in practical movement and fired 10x as well from hulldown using elevation and terrain.

 

Imagine you spotting M4`s who then dissapear and reappear on a ridge 800m away behind you, firing only sticking out a 2 foot target.

 

Im sure you also think the 88mm was more accurate than the Shermans gun by far, this was also untrue. The 75mm was extremely accurate and the 76mm was even better.


Edited by SFC_Storm, Sep 27 2014 - 19:32.


SFC_Storm #17 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 19:35

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View PostLordCommanderMilitant, on Sep 27 2014 - 11:27, said:

 

Cheiftain's right: the Sherman 76 could take down a Tiger E, and decently reliably, especially if it got the drop on the Tiger. The 75's had trouble.

 

Actually they didnt have much trouble if they stayed far away and the crew kept there eyes on the Tiger. All they did was "Kite" the Tiger until they were in a blind spot or until the Tiger was engaged or commited to terrain advancement, like crossing a stream or climbing hard terrain then the SHerman could close to 2k meters and shot there sids and [edited]and since they were very blind except for there FOV it was easy.

 

Good exp crews simply were patient. Esp since the US owned the skys and as he said the arty.



rogue_viking #18 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 19:36

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View PostSFC_Storm, on Sep 27 2014 - 14:29, said:

View Postrogue_viking, on Sep 27 2014 - 11:22, said:

Sorry chieftan, The last point you made about the Tiger having trouble 1v1 w a sherman (minus the 105mm firefly) is false. There are countless reports from BOTH sides where shermans bounced dozens of shells off of a Tiger and had no effect. The Shermans advantage was the sheer weight of numbers. The Germans just couldnt keep up with being surrounded 15:1 (as you did point out the weak side/rear armor). That was how most Tigers (and Tiger II's) were brought down during the war by enemy fire. Most often tho, it was due to the complex mechanisms breaking with no ability for a field repair or simply running out of fuel. Bottom line, a heads up fight Sherman vs Tiger = dead Sherman. But I did like the article and I do agree with a lot of your other points. Plus I do intend to see the movie as it does look good for a Hollywood dramatization.

 

Lol the  History Pubbie vs the Actual tanker/History Professional.

 

You are one oif the ones who has read over and over the dominance and superiority of the glorious Tiger.

 

Sorry but after 4+ years here I have seen literally 1 thousand guys try to prove these things by using "SS Journals" and Chief refute them everytime.

 

15:1 is simply not true, as well.....In fact all you are saying is pretty much right out of the History channel and not real data.

 

Also the reason why the TIgers worried about there sides was the Sherman was 2 times as fast in practical movement and fired 10x as well from hulldown using elevation and terrain.

 

Imagine you spotting M4`s who then dissapear and reappear on a ridge 800m away behind you, firing only sticking out a 2 foot target.

 

Im sure you also think the 88mm was more accurate than the Shermans gun by far, this was also untrue. The 75mm was extremely accurate and the 76mm was even better.

My history knowledge comes from the United States Military Academy West Point. Class of 01. As well as talking to other Vets who were actually there. I didnt disagree with everything the chieftan said, only the one point.  So since you want to throw random insults, without knowing the facts, go troll elsewhere. I posted what is taught and what is called common knowledge.



SFC_Storm #19 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 19:37

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View Postmaxw007, on Sep 27 2014 - 11:16, said:

I find that it just another way to show off and brag about America again!!

 

There is no hero's in war  only those that Survive it and those that do not and the Tales they leave behind.

Look at the exploits of Michelle Whittman and his Exploits in the Tiger One.This was a Hero of the German people .He Died in Battle and he is  almost forgotten because he was on the Wrong Side .Why not make a Movie about him just like the Crew of the Tank Fury except in his Tiger 007. This is a Well documented bibliography with one who just fought against other soldiers and used his cunning and experience to Protect not just himself but his whole crew as well.

Politics and the way we see history is not as Open Minded as it should be.

Tigers were a Quality Tank!! True Over engineered and  only made in small quantities  but they were a Shock to the Allied Tankers !!

Give Credit where Credit is do  and let history speak for itself in a Clear and Non Clouded manner.

If the Tiger was Made as made in Greater Quantity like the American Tanks the outcome might have been different and this standoff and its  outcome might have been different as well.


 

Just a Thought on this Subject


 


 

 

Uhh, wthdoes this have to do with this?

 

As far as I have seen Fury shows the horrors or war. Its about a crew who just wants to get home and stop killing.....Please show me where this promotes "Murica"



LordCommanderMilitant #20 Posted Sep 27 2014 - 19:39

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View Postrogue_viking, on Sep 27 2014 - 20:36, said:

My history knowledge comes from the United States Military Academy West Point. Class of 01. As well as talking to other Vets who were actually there. I didnt disagree with everything the chieftan said, only the one point.  So since you want to throw random insults, without knowing the facts, go troll elsewhere. I posted what is taught and what is called common knowledge.

 

Well, most Shermans were the 75mm variant, so it makes sense that they'd have trouble.

 

The 76mm variant was specialist to a degree, and they were able to routinely knock out enemy Tiger tanks.






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