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Lag, WoT, and you.


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WallCandy #1 Posted May 21 2011 - 04:50

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So anyways, we have been getting a lot of Lag. I've read some reports, and I am going to dust off my CCNA skills here to try and explain what is going on here, and why we should stop spamming.

First off, indirect causes from WoT, we have a lot of people playing now, more so since people were waiting for the patch. We also have the patch DLing, and more information being sent back and forth between you and the servers (The additional vis checks and such.).

Now before we go any further, I want to point out that computers are stupid, routers doubly so. Reports I have recieved say that we are going good on the WoT servers, but are catching a lot of loss in VA, in specific at a certain cable ISPs router in Hendron or however you spell that town. Or in charolette I suppose depending on your direction.

And now the details on how this (sort of) works. As I have not enough time to teach a class as it were. But the "internet" routers including that hop we are hitting in VA are most likely running Border Gateway Protocol (Hereby to be referred to as BGP.) Of wich there are a couple versions. Now I am going to skip all the things about Administrative distance, and things like Cisco routers prefering to talk to other Cisco routers before anyone else etc etc to put this into as simple terms as I can. Every router has a routing table, these things get absolutely huge, this is how all those little packets holding your Lolcats know where to go in the tubes. In the case of BGP it wieghts paths based on several factors including said Adminstrative distance, etc etc. And when it decides what is the best "path" to a destination, it sends the whole shebang, your packet gets a flat out road map through routers to go where it is going. And thats the issue here. Paths only really get changed on this level when the topography changes (A router goes up or down.). And any best path efforts don't take into effect the routers along the way having heavy traffic. It's basically a packet going to the next router going "Hey you still here? Yes? Ok it took me X miliseconds to get down this line and back.".

So basically what is happening is that the router itself in VA is overloaded due to increased load possibly due to us, possibly due to other factors as well. And can't keep up, however the routing protocol is still picking it as the best path and sending more packets down the line because it's logic still dictates this as the best path. Router overload be damned. And it most likely won't change that path until said router goes down and the topography changes. Remember, routers are stupid, and contrary to popular belief the internet has chokepoints.

Given all of that, my current odds are on there is a really crappy router in VA that can't handle the stress, or they are flat out throttling, wich I don't know if they even can do outside of "in theory.".

Bear in mind, take this with some salt, this is a realitivly dumbed down post just to try and give my perspective on things, however it's also a little bit above my paygrade as it were, as I am not trained for exterior protocols yet officially.Just keep it civil, and hopefully things will get ironed out in a bit.

Coldhell #2 Posted May 21 2011 - 23:13

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The routers On the East Coast that is the main one I know of is the NC one.  It is owned by TWC.  Bright House cable is still part of TWC network.  Customer support is clueless about this and you will not have a good time talking to them about it.  I talked to someone in Herdon VA at the NOC and they told me that they could not do anything because I would need to get in touch with the NOC where I am and have them put in a ticket for my service.  When that happens they said that a Engineer would take a look at it and the if a problem is found where I say they would have to put in a support ticket to the engineer in NC to take a look at it.  Kepp in mind that these routers are not cheap and they do not want to spend any money on an issue unless more complaints are logged.  

So EVERYONE...YES EVERYONE on the east coast needs to file a support ticket with your ISP and give them the IP and location of the issue to the person.  Maybe just maybe we can force the the ISP hand and do something about this.

Here is the main issue in the screen shot for me.  It is on the RR backbone

see bottom

GozerTC #3 Posted May 21 2011 - 23:23

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View PostColdhell, on May 21 2011 - 23:13, said:

The routers On the East Coast that is the main one I know of is the NC one.  It is owned by TWC.  Bright House cable is still part of TWC network.  Customer support is clueless about this and you will not have a good time talking to them about it.  I talked to someone in Herdon VA at the NOC and they told me that they could not do anything because I would need to get in touch with the NOC where I am and have them put in a ticket for my service.  When that happens they said that a Engineer would take a look at it and the if a problem is found where I say they would have to put in a support ticket to the engineer in NC to take a look at it.  Kepp in mind that these routers are not cheap and they do not want to spend any money on an issue unless more complaints are logged.  

So EVERYONE...YES EVERYONE on the east coast needs to file a support ticket with your ISP and give them the IP and location of the issue to the person.  Maybe just maybe we can force the the ISP hand and do something about this.

Here is the main issue in the screen shot for me.  It is on the RR backbone

Attachmentwotus-slave-132.worldoftanks.jpg

Pingplotter?  Never heard of that one.  Cool though.


Do you know if this is the same point affecting us on the West Coast?

Worm5 #4 Posted May 21 2011 - 23:27

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View PostColdhell, on May 21 2011 - 23:13, said:

The routers On the East Coast that is the main one I know of is the NC one.  It is owned by TWC.  Bright House cable is still part of TWC network.  Customer support is clueless about this and you will not have a good time talking to them about it.  I talked to someone in Herdon VA at the NOC and they told me that they could not do anything because I would need to get in touch with the NOC where I am and have them put in a ticket for my service.  When that happens they said that a Engineer would take a look at it and the if a problem is found where I say they would have to put in a support ticket to the engineer in NC to take a look at it.  Kepp in mind that these routers are not cheap and they do not want to spend any money on an issue unless more complaints are logged.  

So EVERYONE...YES EVERYONE on the east coast needs to file a support ticket with your ISP and give them the IP and location of the issue to the person.  Maybe just maybe we can force the the ISP hand and do something about this.

Here is the main issue in the screen shot for me.  It is on the RR backbone

Attachmentwotus-slave-132.worldoftanks.jpg


Strange but I go thru many of the same points as you including the "bad" one and average 35ms on a plot. Yep must be the hardware that suddenly broke after a SOFTWARE NOT HARDWARE patch occured.

Anyone that has been in the computer business knows that is total and unadulterated BS. When you load new software and your machine shits itself it is not the hardware which was btw working fine 4 days ago.

Drseckzytime #5 Posted May 21 2011 - 23:39

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I'm not contacting MY ISP on this, this is WG's problem, they need to fix it.  When my connection when tested for everything else I do is rock-solid and blazing fast, yet just this single game lags like hell, they're going to tell me to ticket WG.  And they're right.  This isn't my problem to fix, this isn't my ISP's problem to fix, this is WG's problem to address.  If WG doesn't fix it, they won't get my money anymore, simple as that.  This company isn't a special snowflake, all other developers when they run into these problems address it, and much more quickly at that.  Even Blizzard isn't this slow, and that's pretty telling.

I'm just telling it as it is.  Sorry.

Coldhell #6 Posted May 21 2011 - 23:42

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Worm5 what is your packet loss?  Could you post a screenshot of it.

Gozer:  I would not know unless you did a ping pliot as well.  It would tell you what routers you are going though.

Jr:  It could also be the influx of people using the same router.  

I had this same issue when I played WOW and still do.  I don't even play FPS games because my lag got real bad in the last few months.  Hell I even pay for the RoadRunner Lightning that is supposed to be the best.

Fazar #7 Posted May 21 2011 - 23:48

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View PostJRzez, on May 21 2011 - 23:39, said:

...Even Blizzard isn't this slow, and that's pretty telling.

I'm just telling it as it is.  Sorry.

"Even the most successful online gaming company with over 6 years of experience and having had to deal with millions upon millions of players isn't as slow as a notably less known gaming company that most people have never heard of."

I wonder why.

Coldhell #8 Posted May 21 2011 - 23:51

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Just to show that this is still a NC ISP issue I just picked a randome IP from NC that I knew goes through that router.

*Making another log*

EDIT...

I did another one from another IP:

*Making another log*

Drseckzytime #9 Posted May 22 2011 - 00:03

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View PostFazar, on May 21 2011 - 23:48, said:

"Even the most successful online gaming company with over 6 years of experience and having had to deal with millions upon millions of players isn't as slow as a notably less known gaming company that most people have never heard of."

I wonder why.

Point is, Blizzard is the slowest major developer there is, and they address things faster.  And at least they would have the decency to leave a message and/or discuss the situation with it's userbase instead of letting them scramble around trying to fix things all on their own.  Trion worlds which is basically upstart as well, fixes things better, and communicates much-much better what's going on.

This game has incredible potential, it's fresh and fun to me, and I don't want to see this game deteriorate right in front of me.  I'm going to voice it, and hopefully they listen.  I plan on playing this for a good while after all, and I want to see them succeed so they can go on to make a successor.  If we don't complain about glaring and unusual problems, they will feel even less inclined to address them.

Coldhell #10 Posted May 22 2011 - 00:05

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I just got off the phone with BH again and the Seinor NOC tech is supposed to call me back.  They lady that I was on the phone with was from RR Biz support.  She saw the PL from here side when she did the same ping.

Not saying this is everyones issue but it is mine.   Now I also take into account that WOT did increase the data being sent and that would also be the main cause.  So it is a bit of both companies issue.

More data means more server/router load and that would be the issue.   Is it WOTs fault that the router failed?  NO  Is it WOTs fault that this was not tested before the patch was sent?  YES

This patch should have had a beta test IMO with the MAJOR changes they did.

So we just have to wait and see what happens from here.

Fazar #11 Posted May 22 2011 - 01:07

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View PostJRzez, on May 22 2011 - 00:03, said:

Point is, Blizzard is the slowest major developer there is, and they address things faster.  And at least they would have the decency to leave a message and/or discuss the situation with it's userbase instead of letting them scramble around trying to fix things all on their own.  Trion worlds which is basically upstart as well, fixes things better, and communicates much-much better what's going on.

This game has incredible potential, it's fresh and fun to me, and I don't want to see this game deteriorate right in front of me.  I'm going to voice it, and hopefully they listen.  I plan on playing this for a good while after all, and I want to see them succeed so they can go on to make a successor.  If we don't complain about glaring and unusual problems, they will feel even less inclined to address them.

Slowest major developer?  Slower than what?  Major developer?  Who all do we compare in that?  I'm a bit hesitant to say Trion communicates better.  Blizzard does a lot to communicate, and you have so much they don't need to comment on as it's all data mined.

I want them to succeed too, and yeah voicing your concern is totally legitimate.

cy7 #12 Posted May 22 2011 - 01:13

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Can someone explain to me than why we are still getting the same lag on the west coast?

Coldhell #13 Posted May 22 2011 - 01:31

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Well it is being worked on.  The guy called me back....we did tests for about 30mins...he did the same to that router...we got almost the same results.  They are going to have an engineer in the NOC and NC area take a look at it and call me back tomorrow.

I did tell them it could be that it is not good enough to handle the flow of data from WOT and other places at the same time.  However,  I did a search and it seems that the NC router has had major issues in the past.  Look it up for yourself.

as far as the west coast issue...you could be going through the same router....he was in socal

Puunene #14 Posted May 22 2011 - 02:06

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Sorry but I'm in Hawaii so it doesn't go thru any of those routers and this started the minute I patched.

I have directly pinged the WoT servers and have redlined or timed out yet I ping the WOW servers and get less then 35ms.

You can give us double-talk all you want. It's your servers and the Patch that make this lag.

FIX IT!

Sonork #15 Posted May 22 2011 - 02:10

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Up to this patch the game was running fine and laglessly for me.  Now almost every game is a sutter warp fest.  It's WoT's problem not anyone elses.

View PostPuunene, on May 22 2011 - 02:06, said:

FIX IT!




Kaiten #16 Posted May 22 2011 - 02:37

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I can't blame the software because on the other side of the world there are 120,000+ people who use the same software and they have no problem. The software did increase the data flow but it's the hardware that's breaking down.

Where is WoT's server located anyway? Why do both East and West coast users have to connect through the same route?

Coldhell #17 Posted May 22 2011 - 02:56

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View PostPuunene, on May 22 2011 - 02:06, said:

Sorry but I'm in Hawaii so it doesn't go thru any of those routers and this started the minute I patched.

I have directly pinged the WoT servers and have redlined or timed out yet I ping the WOW servers and get less then 35ms.

You can give us double-talk all you want. It's your servers and the Patch that make this lag.

FIX IT!


Can you show your route then?

It is hardware for sure...but a combo of bad routers and bad server managment.  It isn't just one router that can be at fault but on my route it is.  Sometimes it is 3 at a time but the others are only 3-5% at most...2 are TWC and another is a different ISP closer to WOT.

The West coast may not connect through the same route...BUT it can have a router that cannot handle the data flow that was increased.  Who knows how much the extra checks are?  Could be a few kb to a few hundred MB...now times that by players plus the ones downloading the patch and you are bound to have a weak link somewhere.

Just because you change the battery does not mean the alternator is good.

gunney42 #18 Posted May 22 2011 - 03:00

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Below are 2 images, These images were just done because in game, the lag was hitting me bad. I decided to ue a trace route program so I can see if there are packet losses and where at. Well, as you can see below in the 2 images. I was hitting some bad lag spikes and I was loosing 20% packet loss at the WOT server. how accurate is that, I don't know. They were not the only spot where it showed packet loss, I did have it once in one other location, but all the rest were are the WoT server. both of these screenshots were taken about 1 - 3 min apart.

I am sorry, they can not say that it is not the server, also they can not blame the

ae-4-4.car1.Charlotte1.Level3.net
ae-11-11.car2.Charlotte1.Level3.net

router for as you can see, I do not go through it.

I really like to see the response for this one.

http://www.headshotd.../traceroute.jpg
http://www.headshotd...traceroute2.jpg

In the second image, looking at the bottom, you can see the lag spikes. Some of them hit 279. I think that was the largest one and I have had the packet losses at every of those red bars on the bottom. in the graph. Most were 10% packet loss, but i did have one go up to just under 30% packet loss.

Coldhell #19 Posted May 22 2011 - 03:04

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now that is clear that you problem is the WOT server BUT can you let it run for more than 30 seconds so it can level out on the red line at the top?

You do not go though the same router I do either...thats even better!

gunney42 #20 Posted May 22 2011 - 03:07

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that was over 30 seconds, that was over a period of over 10 min.