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So how good was the PzKpfw IV really?


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Poll: So, Pz IV ... (193 members have cast votes)

How 'good' was it?

  1. Extremely good, best tank of the war! (1 vote [0.52%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.52%

  2. Very good, one of the most effective tanks of the war. (71 votes [36.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.79%

  3. Decent. It could hold its own. (107 votes [55.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 55.44%

  4. Meh, it really wasn't any good at all. (8 votes [4.15%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.15%

  5. It was terrible, worst tank of the war! (6 votes [3.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.11%

How did it compare to Shermans, after the latter were introduced?

  1. It was ahead of the Shermans most of the time (45 votes [23.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.32%

  2. It was on par with the Shermans most of the time (103 votes [53.37%])

    Percentage of vote: 53.37%

  3. It lagged behind the Shermans most of the time (45 votes [23.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.32%

And how reliable was it?

  1. Extremely reliable. Mechanical breakdowns were rare. (6 votes [3.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.11%

  2. It was quite reliable. Mechanical breakdowns happened every now and then. (138 votes [71.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 71.50%

  3. Its reliability was mediocre, one of the less reliable tanks of the war (41 votes [21.24%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.24%

  4. Its reliability was terrible and broke down all the friggin time (8 votes [4.15%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.15%

75mm KwK 40 L/48 vs 76mm Sherman gun?

  1. 75mm KwK 40 L/48 had the advantage (65 votes [33.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.68%

  2. They're about equal (85 votes [44.04%])

    Percentage of vote: 44.04%

  3. American 76mm had the advantage (43 votes [22.28%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.28%

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Anlushac11 #221 Posted Dec 27 2014 - 23:19

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View PostPresident_Romney, on Nov 12 2014 - 11:24, said:

A different final drive would not have won the war for the Nazis. By that point the outcome had long since become a question of "When" not "If"

 

The point I was trying to make was that Germany struggled to produce a final drive for a limited production vehicle (492 Tiger II's ) that was comparable to a final drive that the US used in a vehicle they were producing by 250 a day.

 

USA produced more T26 Pershing's in 6 months (Nov 1944 to May 1945 2,000 T26's) than Germany built Tigers of all types in 3 years. IIRC (Dont have numbers in front of me) Soviets built almost 4,000 IS's from late 1943 to May 1945

 

Ergo once US got production ramped up and USSR got factories moved and production ramped back up there was a snowball's chance in hell of Hitler changing outcome of war.

 

If Germany had produced flawless perfectly functioning Panthers and Tigers and manned them with experienced trained crews Germany would still have been crushed by the sheer weight of Allied numbers.

 

Add in bombing of factories, fuel shortages, lack of trained crews, lack of resources to make good quality steel and there is no doubt about war's outcome.

 

US population at start of WW2 was about 140 million

USSR population at start of war was about 140 million

UK population at stat of WW2 was about 65 million

Germany's population at start of WW2 was about 95 million.

 

There is no possible way Germany could have ever won.

 

 


Edited by Anlushac11, Dec 27 2014 - 23:20.


Walter_Sobchak #222 Posted Dec 29 2014 - 03:27

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View PostAnlushac11, on Dec 27 2014 - 14:45, said:

 

 

Well to be fair Adolphus Busch immigrated from Germany to USA in 1857, married Lily Anheuser, started Anheuser Busch with Lily's father and started producing a Bavarian style light Lager in 1876 called Budweiser.

 

Just sayin...

 

Allow me to be the resident internet pedant and point out that the town of Budweis, from which Budweiser draws its name is in the Czech Republic, not Germany.  In fact, it is still home to the Budweiser Buvar Brewery, who has had numerous lawsuits over the years with the American Budweiser brand.  Just for the record, I think American Budweiser is an appallingly bad beer. 

Meplat #223 Posted Dec 29 2014 - 03:43

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View PostAnlushac11, on Dec 27 2014 - 12:45, said:

 

 

Well to be fair Adolphus Busch immigrated from Germany to USA in 1857, married Lily Anheuser, started Anheuser Busch with Lily's father and started producing a Bavarian style light Lager in 1876 called Budweiser.

 

Just sayin...

 

View PostWalter_Sobchak, on Dec 28 2014 - 19:27, said:

 

Allow me to be the resident internet pedant and point out that the town of Budweis, from which Budweiser draws its name is in the Czech Republic, not Germany.  In fact, it is still home to the Budweiser Buvar Brewery, who has had numerous lawsuits over the years with the American Budweiser brand.  Just for the record, I think American Budweiser is an appallingly bad beer. 

 

And if you took a can of it to either locale and claimed it came from there, you might find yourself with chipped teeth and a lingering taste of shoeleather from the foot that took the long "scenic" route to your mouth..

 

 



blurr91 #224 Posted Jan 02 2015 - 19:28

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View PostLert, on Oct 03 2014 - 10:38, said:

Hm. It was still more elaborate and difficult to produce than, say, a Sherman or T-34 though. It was still overengineered.

 

 

But....it's still underengineered by German standards...:teethhappy:



blurr91 #225 Posted Jan 02 2015 - 19:35

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View PostWalter_Sobchak, on Dec 28 2014 - 18:27, said:

 

Allow me to be the resident internet pedant and point out that the town of Budweis, from which Budweiser draws its name is in the Czech Republic, not Germany.  In fact, it is still home to the Budweiser Buvar Brewery, who has had numerous lawsuits over the years with the American Budweiser brand.  Just for the record, I think American Budweiser is an appallingly bad beer.

 

I drove through Budweis in Czech Republic in the summer.  I had a Budweis Dunkel straight from the tap.  It was the finest beer I've ever had.

 

Czechs know their beer.  Plzeň, from which PIlsner took its name, is in the Czech Republic.


 

By the way, Budweiser Budvar is imported under the name Czechvar.  I found some at Total Wine.  Unfortunately, it did not taste as good as the stuff I had from a tap in Czech Republic.


 

I think I'll go back to Czech Republic one of these days just for the beer. :P



Anlushac11 #226 Posted Jan 02 2015 - 22:34

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There is a reason Budweiser beer is nicknamed Buttwiper.

Meplat #227 Posted Jan 03 2015 - 09:10

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View PostAnlushac11, on Jan 02 2015 - 14:34, said:

There is a reason Budweiser beer is nicknamed Buttwiper.

 

Though it has gotten better since the 70's.

It used to be "headache in a can" and now it's "semi-alcoholic stuff that tastes kind of like beer mixed with soda water".



Walter_Sobchak #228 Posted Jan 03 2015 - 20:28

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It's best to refer to Budweiser as what it is, an "Adjunct Lager."  This is what most mass market American beers are classified as in the Brewing world.  Basically, the difference between a traditional lager and an adjunct lager is that the adjunct lagers are made with non-beer ingredients such as rice and corn.  Rice and corn are used as a cost (and flavor) cutting measure.  So yeah, if you want to drink crappy fermented rice and corn water sold by a foreign owned mega-corporation, by all means, have a Bud (or a Pabst, or a Busch, etc.)  Or you could go support your local micro-brewer and actually drink something that tastes good. 

 

 



Meplat #229 Posted Jan 14 2015 - 03:56

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View PostWalter_Sobchak, on Jan 03 2015 - 12:28, said:

It's best to refer to Budweiser as what it is, an "Adjunct Lager."  This is what most mass market American beers are classified as in the Brewing world.  Basically, the difference between a traditional lager and an adjunct lager is that the adjunct lagers are made with non-beer ingredients such as rice and corn.  Rice and corn are used as a cost (and flavor) cutting measure.  So yeah, if you want to drink crappy fermented rice and corn water sold by a foreign owned mega-corporation, by all means, have a Bud (or a Pabst, or a Busch, etc.)  Or you could go support your local micro-brewer and actually drink something that tastes good. 

 

 

 

Grew up on Canuck beers, so sticking with them. (Though currently drinking Heineken, because it was on sale and tastes good with home-made pickles)

Anlushac11 #230 Posted Jan 14 2015 - 03:59

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I dont often drink but when I do its Guinness or a nice honey brown lager

Edited by Anlushac11, Jan 14 2015 - 03:59.


Meplat #231 Posted Jan 14 2015 - 04:08

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View PostAnlushac11, on Jan 13 2015 - 19:59, said:

I dont often drink but when I do its Guinness or a nice honey brown lager

 

They don't sit as well as they used to. Plus, "Bourboun Double + Pint of Stout= Need for a nap" anymore.

Blackhorse_Six_ #232 Posted Jan 14 2015 - 05:50

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View PostMeplat, on Jan 13 2015 - 22:08, said:

They don't sit as well as they used to. Plus, "Bourboun Double + Pint of Stout= Need for a nap" anymore.

 

Howdy, fellow Old Guy ...

Meplat #233 Posted Jan 20 2015 - 02:48

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View PostBlackhorse_Six, on Jan 13 2015 - 21:50, said:

 

Howdy, fellow Old Guy ...

 

No kidding. And it's not just the age, it's the age -and- the mileage.

earn3000 #234 Posted Jan 27 2015 - 13:28

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Anlushac11 #235 Posted Jan 27 2015 - 13:52

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View PostMeplat, on Jan 19 2015 - 20:48, said:

 

No kidding. And it's not just the age, it's the age -and- the mileage.

 

That city miles or highway miles?

 

If its off road miles your in trouble



Meplat #236 Posted Jan 27 2015 - 17:17

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View PostAnlushac11, on Jan 27 2015 - 05:52, said:

 

That city miles or highway miles?

 

If its off road miles your in trouble

 

Some "air", some offroad.  A few were even nautical, but they were not very stressful other than an interesting sunburn.

Kenshin2kx #237 Posted Jan 27 2015 - 21:43

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View PostBlackhorse_Six, on Oct 25 2014 - 15:31, said:

Be careful that you take no history lessons from your game-play.

 

Hahaha ... +1

Lenzabi #238 Posted Jan 27 2015 - 22:18

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Well, the Pz-III was the "Backbone during 1939-1940/41, from then on in it was the Pz-IV as it had the larger frame, engine, could be adapted to carry new and bigger variants of the 75mm and still stay at it's normal speed. Even though they were introducing and using the Panther more often, they still could produce the IV as they had the manufacturing set up for it. And there was the STuG-IV, JgPz-IV, and other machines made on the Pz-IV chassis, and the basic Pz-IV was still made almost till the end. Definitely a "work-horse" machine for the Germans in WWII.




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