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Fury: Battling German Die-Hards


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Wolfhere #21 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 00:44

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View Postfavrepeoria, on Oct 25 2014 - 18:18, said:

I found this annoying too with the movie

 

AFAIK, there were no Tiger I's operational at that time of the war.  I took the whole scene as a representation of the Shermans battling a Tiger II, not a Tiger I.  In that respect, it was pretty accurate.  The Shermans would have had little chance of dealing with aTiger II frontally.  

iron610 #22 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 02:14

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View Postmikel1967, on Oct 25 2014 - 19:09, said:

yes,yes,our german history of courage and bravery with no,air support,no artillerie support,no food,fuel,hell practically nothing,maybe new helmets,and again a brit gives his 2 cents worth of garbage,just spit it out,germans were beaten because a lone submarine was captured intact,before its crew apparently,which i doubt could blow up their highly sensitive ultra/enigma code sending and recieving machine,this,1 thing,won the war for brits and americans,now,they simply sent troops and plans where germany wasnt,or was,simple.the reason the war lasted so long is americans,brits

Everyone drink!



Tibson #23 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 02:45

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I have a couple of Harry Yeide's books and they're universally good reads.  Highly recommended for anyone interested in WWII armored warfare.

 



Walter_Sobchak #24 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 03:01

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View PostDonward, on Oct 25 2014 - 16:52, said:

Hmmm. That is interesting Chieftain and Walter. The more you know.

I'm wondering if the usage is something of a culture clash between the older officers who wrote the Field Manuals who served in WW1 versus the vernacular and slang of the young 18/early 20 something GIs who comprised the next generation of troops.

Just like now the appropriate tanker terminology for infantry - I've been solemnly informed - is squishies...

 

Now that I am home, I looked through the intro of my Yeide book and I can't find the explanation of the term "doughs" that I thought was in there.  Oh well.  I'm sure the Chieftain is correct.

 

I do find it interesting that Tankers generally referred to "Jeeps" as "Peeps" during the war.  Patton uses the term several times in "War as I knew it."



Dominatus #25 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 03:03

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Yiede always writes nice things. Great read.

Mack54 #26 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 03:24

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I was stationed in Ashaffenberg (West) Germany from 1982 till 1985 and served as both an M1 Abrams driver and in my battalion S-1. I am also a student of military history, in particular armor history. Of the many interesting things about that city, one that was rarely discussed,  was that it had been a Panzer manufacturing center and that the SS, among other Nazi elements, had a strong presence there and in the immediate area. One of the reasons Ashaffenburg was a prime target for American/Allied forces was that many political prisoners were held there. The prisoners were so high profile (many were religious leaders) that Hitler and company were disinclined to execute them or otherwise make them "disappear" for fear that the German people would revolt in response. General Patton and Col. Abrams were actually in the Ashaffenberg area prior to the attack on that city and were nearly killed when a Me 109 suddenly appeared, and took off from a concealed, underground hanger which had been missed by advancing American troops. The two commanders had to "eat dirt" to avoid being hit by the fighter as it took off. I was never able to determine the fate of the Me 109 or it's mission.  Later, Patton was approached by city officials who wanted to surrender the city, and he sent a three man team from his HQ staff to negotiate with the Nazis, who had established their HQ in the castle which dominated the city skyline. The next morning, Patton was expecting to see a signal from his men signifying that the SS had agreed to surrender the city....Instead he saw the bodies of the three officers, who had been executed by the Nazis, hanging from one of the castle towers. Needless to say Patton was enraged and ordered every tank and artillery piece under his command to target the city. He also requested, and was granted, a bomber attack on Ashaffenberg. Patton also supposedly ordered his tanks and arty to "leave no two bricks or stones left stuck together" following the bombing and ordered them to open fire. As the story was told, the city officials who had approched Patton, were horrified at what had happened to the three Americans and managed to sneak into the castle just as the first bombers arrived over the city, retrieved their bodies and removed them from the castle and the city. American infantry (depending on who you wish to believe some of them were Rangers and veterans of the Normandy invasion assigned to Patton for the sole purpose of freeing the political prisoners) then entered the city and with armor and fighter bomber support overcame the SS holdouts and eventually rescued the surviving political prisoners. Just to show how intent the SS was to delay the American advance through the city and the surrounding area, they buried several tons of large caliber artillery ammunition under the tracks of the main rail road switching area and rail head,  in the hope that American forces would use the rail head to rapidly move troops, tanks and other equipment via that route and that the heavily loaded trains would set the buried ammo off....And from 1945 to 1984 American troops, tanks, equipment and thousands of civilians used that rail head on a daily basis....In 1984 German rail workers were shocked to find the long buried artillery rounds neatly stacked under several feet of dirt, gravel, and the rails themselves.....We suddenly had somewhere else to be and began a road march out of town for an unscheduled ARTEP. The city pretty much came to a standstill untill the hundreds of rounds of old ammo could be professionally removed from the area and properly desposed of. In addition, one of the better known turist attractions in the area was "Three Cross Hill" where German civilians originally buried the three American officers executed by the SS. A plaque, erected by the city, honoring the three men for their efforts to save the city from distruction stood near the three giant crosses that were also erected by the city in their memory. I left (PCS) the city and (West ) Germany in 1985 and have not returned to date....But I. and my Lovely Bride who is of German decent, would like someday to visit the now reunited Germany and 21st Century Ashaffenberg.

Echo_Sniper #27 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 03:37

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If anyone is interested in understanding why Germany held so long after defeat was clear, Ian Kershaw's The End is extremely good.

FPSGHoST808 #28 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 04:51

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View Postmonkeyfume, on Oct 25 2014 - 10:08, said:

First! Nice article, +1

EDIT: Give me a few minutes to read it now...

this isnt youtube.

 



HereticVoid #29 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 04:56

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Great article. I would love to read from articles like this that cover not only the armor but also other aspects of the military.

Pay__2__Win #30 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 05:21

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Dude, we ALL know what wiki is...

Zinegata #31 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 05:39

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Quote

Belton Cooper, in his history of the 3d Armored Division, reports that Royal Tigers destroyed an entire company of Shermans from an unidentified task force and that one M36 was lost during the debacle.10 The incident is not mentioned in the division’s own history. Several sources concur that one M36 was destroyed that day, but the exact circumstances remain unclear.

 

Just to clarify because I don't have Cooper's book in front of me at the moment - didn't Cooper specifically state the Sherman-Royal Tiger engagement was at Padeborn? Because Ambrose's Citizen Soldiers is in front of me and it equates the engagement with the one at Padeborn; which is relevant given it's well known Ambrose was Cooper's ghost writer.

 

(Not that we should ever really trust anything Ambrose wrote either, given his plagiarism).

 

Also, while I enjoyed the article and how it notes that there was still plenty of fight left in April '45, I'm increasingly of the opinion that Fury was much better off set in December; especially that final scene with the SS. That sort of thing actually happened in the Bulge against scattered squads and platoons of infantry, so one tank holding off an entire SS battalion at a crossroad wouldn't be out of place in a time period where epic stands can be described with words such as this:

 

"A platoon of engineers appears in one terse sentence of a German commander's report. They have fought bravely, says the foe, and forced him to waste a couple of hours in deployment and maneuver. In this brief emergence from the fog of war the engineer platoon makes its bid for recognition in history. That is all."


Edited by Zinegata, Oct 26 2014 - 05:44.


Zinegata #32 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 05:53

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View PostSlayer_Jesse, on Oct 26 2014 - 04:33, said:

 

http://worldoftanks.com/en/news/pc-browser/21/The_Cheiftains_Hatch_Sherman_PR_Bigger_Cooper/

 

the cheiftan is more than aware.

 

Speaking of the actual Movie Fury, what did you think of the fight between the tiger and the Shermans? The Shermans were well within kill range, yet Fury still had to circle around to the rear.

 

Well, I've always been of the opinion that a Tiger I vs Sherman fight was ahistorical by April '45 in the first place, because the Tiger I was already out of production since the previous year and was already less common than the Tiger II by the Bulge. If we think about it as a Sherman vs Tiger II engagement, then the need for a rear shot in the same vein as the final battle in Girls Und Panzer was more necessary (and much more dramatic than a pragmatic side shot).

 

Fury I think overall did a pretty good job, and as the movie's tank expert (a real-world British tanker who played the Tiger's commander) noted it's only us tank fanatics who would really notice minor things like the Fury's 76mm gun being able to fire WP shells when it was supposed to be a 75mm gun exclusive. It's really the last chance to show off the original tanks on the big screen, so I'm not too peeved that the Tiger ended up having Tiger II-level front armor, because there's just plainly no working Tiger IIs to use anymore in the first place.


Edited by Zinegata, Oct 26 2014 - 05:55.


Wailwulf #33 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 06:05

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View PostSlayer_Jesse, on Oct 25 2014 - 13:33, said:

 

Speaking of the actual Movie Fury, what did you think of the fight between the tiger and the Shermans? The Shermans were well within kill range, yet Fury still had to circle around to the rear.

 

It is a movie where all the action has to be kept in a certain visual range so it can be easily seen and followed by the viewer.  If it had been don, with the Shermans a separated by each other  by a few few hundred meters, instead of the 10 or 20 meters, and the Tiger 700+ meters away, all we would have seen is a few dots moving across the screen.

 

For films and staged publicity photos distances are compressed  to create a more striking visual. 

 

For example: http://www.cybermode...es/na_m4_04.jpg

 

To the citizen at home seeing that image in a magazine would think, "Wow, we are ready to kick the enemy's butt, we have alot of tanks!"  While an enemy Pilot of a ground attack aircraft or enemy artillery observer would just smile and think, "Target rich environment!"



Legiondude #34 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 06:08

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View PostZinegata, on Oct 25 2014 - 23:39, said:

Quote

Belton Cooper, in his history of the 3d Armored Division, reports that Royal Tigers destroyed an entire company of Shermans from an unidentified task force and that one M36 was lost during the debacle.10 The incident is not mentioned in the division’s own history. Several sources concur that one M36 was destroyed that day, but the exact circumstances remain unclear.

 

Just to clarify because I don't have Cooper's book in front of me at the moment - didn't Cooper specifically state the Sherman-Royal Tiger engagement was at Padeborn? Because Ambrose's Citizen Soldiers is in front of me and it equates the engagement with the one at Padeborn; which is relevant given it's well known Ambrose was Cooper's ghost writer.

Cooper does mention one event in the area of Paderborn on page 148 where a group of King Tigers wipes the floor with allied armor



Account_Name #35 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 07:50

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View PostZinegata, on Oct 26 2014 - 05:39, said:

"A platoon of engineers appears in one terse sentence of a German commander's report. They have fought bravely, says the foe, and forced him to waste a couple of hours in deployment and maneuver. In this brief emergence from the fog of war the engineer platoon makes its bid for recognition in history. That is all.

 

What's that from?  I feel like I've read it before. 

 

Since you - rightly - dislike Ambrose, read some of the academic reviews of Nothing Like it in the World, his book about the Pacific Railroad.  I'm sure you'll enjoy them as much as I did.  This one is a good starting point.

 

---

 

Fantastic article from Mr Yeide.  I must pick up Fighting Patton one of these days.



dhread #36 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 07:53

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Thank you for the history and the read, as always Chieftain.


 

The entire war is an excellent example of our politicians failing yet again.

 

The first strike of ALL wars should be for ALL current politicians in the involved countries to be executed and new ones sent to the negotiating table.


 

It seems the new batch might have more interest in negotiating a peaceful settlement rather than wasting blood and treasure on their own egos.


 

After all...it is the career politicians that have gotten us to where we are now...

Even CEO's don't keep their job when the company fails.


 



IceOtter #37 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 08:17

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View Postdhread, on Oct 26 2014 - 00:53, said:

Thank you for the history and the read, as always Chieftain.


 

The entire war is an excellent example of our politicians failing yet again.

 

The first strike of ALL wars should be for ALL current politicians in the involved countries to be executed and new ones sent to the negotiating table.


 

It seems the new batch might have more interest in negotiating a peaceful settlement rather than wasting blood and treasure on their own egos.


 

After all...it is the career politicians that have gotten us to where we are now...

Even CEO's don't keep their job when the company fails.


 


 

But the CEO's feet never touch the ground under their MASSIVE golden parachutes.  You're right about one thing - ideological reasons for going to war are almost exclusively a smokescreen.  Most wars are an economic power grab.  Money pollutes all things.


 


Edited by IceOtter, Oct 26 2014 - 08:23.


IceOtter #38 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 08:20

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Must not have hit the post button - what I said was:


 

Thanks Chieftan!  A great read - addictive in the pacing - just like the race it chronicles.


Edited by IceOtter, Oct 26 2014 - 08:22.


IceOtter #39 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 08:22

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Found it when I backed up.  Wording is a little different.


 

Thanks Chieftan - great post and a surprisingly addictive read - as though the speed of the advance conjured the spirit of watching a race.



Donward #40 Posted Oct 26 2014 - 09:01

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View Postdhread, on Oct 25 2014 - 23:53, said:

Thank you for the history and the read, as always Chieftain.


 

The entire war is an excellent example of our politicians failing yet again.

 

The first strike of ALL wars should be for ALL current politicians in the involved countries to be executed and new ones sent to the negotiating table.


 

It seems the new batch might have more interest in negotiating a peaceful settlement rather than wasting blood and treasure on their own egos.


 

After all...it is the career politicians that have gotten us to where we are now...

Even CEO's don't keep their job when the company fails.


 

These sort of pseudo-populist rants get tiresome after awhile.






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