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Turret bustle overhang, turret size


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Lert #1 Posted Feb 06 2015 - 23:44

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Western MBT's have had enormous turrets with fat ***es that have tons of overhang for quite a while now, while Russian MBT's haven't.

 

Case in point:

 

Western:

Spoiler

 

Russian:

 

Spoiler

 

Why does Russia hold on to the bowl turret shape? I guess it's for profile reasons, presenting a smaller target and being easier to hide. And why do western MBT's have those enormously fat heads with all the overhang? I'm guessing it's for ease-of-use with all the ammunition nearby. Which raises all sorts of safety questions, but blow-off panels take care of most of those I suppose.



Winterpwner #2 Posted Feb 06 2015 - 23:47

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Crew comfort and ergonomics probably has to do a lot with it.

_Koi #3 Posted Feb 06 2015 - 23:49

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Dont quote me because I know next to nothing about modern tanks but it seems like the smaller turret would create a much smaller profile. Also may be easier to manage in city streets? Im going to have to read my book "armor" again. Im pretty sure it states the reasons behind many different design philosophies between eastern and western tanks.

iraqiwildman #4 Posted Feb 06 2015 - 23:52

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View PostWinterpwner, on Feb 06 2015 - 16:47, said:

Crew comfort and ergonomics probably has to do a lot with it.

 

Yes.

The M1 has ammo stored in the back on the turret and had a loader, whereas the Soviets used an auto-loader mounted on the floor without a loader.

The few Russian tanks I got into while in Iraq are very cramped. I am 5"8 and was hitting my head on the turret roof. No crew comforts except a small seat.



HowitzerBlitzer #5 Posted Feb 06 2015 - 23:53

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Provides a better working environment for the crew so they would preform better.

Xeraux #6 Posted Feb 06 2015 - 23:56

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I like the part where there's an MG 42 on a Leopard 2.

kmanweiss #7 Posted Feb 06 2015 - 23:56

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My understanding is the larger turret provides a lot of QOL improvements.  More room, easier access to ammo/equipment.  They also allow you to shove a lot more equipment into them.

 

The Russian design has stuck true to it's roots for a couple reasons (if it aint broke, why fix it).  First off they are a little less concerned about creature comforts when it comes to combat vehicles.  The smaller turrets offer better protection by being a small target and being able to create better angles for deflection.  On top of all that, it saves weight.  The current Russian tanks are far cheaper than US tanks, but they are also lighter and more nimble...oh yeah, and cost significantly less while still being nearly as effective.



cashdash #8 Posted Feb 06 2015 - 23:57

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It's also worth noting that Russian/Soviet tankers tended to be shorter and skinnier than their western counter parts.

Lert #9 Posted Feb 06 2015 - 23:59

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View PostJayHollyLion, on Feb 06 2015 - 22:56, said:

I like the part where there's an MG 42 on a Leopard 2.

 

MG-3, a modern MG based on the MG-42 action but chambered in NATO standard 7.62x51

 

If it's broke don't fix it, and MG-42 was an amazing gun.



paradat #10 Posted Feb 07 2015 - 00:17

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Because stuff. Where we gonna put all the poggie bait to sell to the infantry?

Daripuff #11 Posted Feb 07 2015 - 00:31

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I think one of the big things about it is ammunition storage, and safety in an ammo rack cookoff. 

I'm willing to bet every single one of those huge bustles houses ALL the tank's ammo, and every single one of those is designed to vent an ammunition explosion safely above and away from the crew compartment.  Western tanks have historically given a LOT of consideration to crew survivability, especially in the case of losing a tank.

Soviets have historically not given a flying fart about crew, be it comfort or safety, and losing a tank is just as much a blow as losing a crew, so why compromise the low profile, well armored dome turret when there is plenty of ammo storage in the main hull?



NutrientibusMeaGallus #12 Posted Feb 07 2015 - 00:47

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I'm trying to figure out why the first tank pic it has an amber light for no apparent reason... They doing combat roadside service or something?

Lert #13 Posted Feb 07 2015 - 01:12

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View PostNutrientibusMeaGallus, on Feb 06 2015 - 23:47, said:

I'm trying to figure out why the first tank pic it has an amber light

 

It's a beacon light for use during peace time maneuvering and / or road transport.



Blackhorse_Six_ #14 Posted Feb 07 2015 - 01:50

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View PostLert, on Feb 06 2015 - 17:44, said:

Why ?

 

Assuming human Loaders ...

 

Western tanks carry most of their ammo in that bustle, with a few ready rounds located nose-up, base down on the floor at the Loader's station.

 

(Other rounds are stored in the hull and near the turret floor under the gun)

 

Radios, NBC filtration, and other electronics are also located in the bustle, usually directly behind the TC..

 

Soviet tanks tend to carry their ammo in the hull, most of which is now carried in the autoloader carosel located directly under the gun breech.

 

Soviet tanks do not have turret floors - the TC and Gunner use perch-pegs to put their feet on. Their seats are suspended by pole from the turret ring.

 

T-54/55 series tanks also had horizontal stowage on the interior wall of the turret, above the ring.

 

Cannot recall atm whether or not the T-62 continued with that method of stowage ...



NutrientibusMeaGallus #15 Posted Feb 07 2015 - 01:53

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View PostLert, on Feb 06 2015 - 19:12, said:

 

It's a beacon light for use during peace time maneuvering and / or road transport.

 

Makes sense... Still like my idea better... See a tank with a AAA paint scheme... The yellow light spins like in a tow truck......  

Dominatus #16 Posted Feb 07 2015 - 02:00

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View PostDaripuff, on Feb 06 2015 - 18:31, said:

I'm willing to bet every single one of those huge bustles houses ALL the tank's ammo, and every single one of those is designed to vent an ammunition explosion safely above and away from the crew compartment.  Western tanks have historically given a LOT of consideration to crew survivability, especially in the case of losing a tank.

I think only Abrams does that, actually. Leclerc and Leopard II both have front hull racks, although most of the ammo's probably in the turret.



Daigensui #17 Posted Feb 07 2015 - 07:22

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View PostLert, on Feb 06 2015 - 14:44, said:

Why does Russia hold on to the bowl turret shape?

 

Legacy. It's cheaper to use the original model and update it than making something from stretch.



KrasnayaZvezda #18 Posted Feb 07 2015 - 09:46

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View PostBlackhorse_Six, on Feb 07 2015 - 09:50, said:

Cannot recall atm whether or not the T-62 continued with that method of stowage ...

 

T-62 only has two rapid response rounds in the turret. All other rounds are stored in the hull.

 

View PostDominatus, on Feb 07 2015 - 10:00, said:

I think only Abrams does that, actually. Leclerc and Leopard II both have front hull racks, although most of the ammo's probably in the turret.

 

Abrams also has spare ammo stowage in the hull. It's isolated like bustle rack, though.

Anlushac11 #19 Posted Feb 07 2015 - 16:43

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Are'nt most Western turrets welded RHA while most Russian MBT turrets are cast?

 

 


Edited by Anlushac11, Feb 07 2015 - 16:44.


Dominatus #20 Posted Feb 07 2015 - 16:49

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View PostAnlushac11, on Feb 07 2015 - 10:43, said:

Are'nt most Western turrets welded RHA while most Russian MBT turrets are cast?

Depends on what you mean by most. The current T-90s are welded, for example.






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