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Why I'm not going to buy the T-54 Prototype [EDIT] New data at bottom of post

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The_Ghghp #1 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 05:17

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[EDIT] New data for tank from Tank Inspector released with the 9.6 patch at bottom of post.

 

Let's start my argument off with a link. Also, please read the entire article before negging or replying, should help on you comprehending my point, thanks. Understand that this review is based on the current stats of the tank, I could change my mind if the tank was rebalanced again.

 

http://tank-compare.com/en/compare/t-54-first-prototype/type-59/panther-mit-88-cm-l71#T1=628I519I435I743I197&T2=435I350I298I537I200&T3=547I446I373I658I241

 

As you can see, the T-54 Prototype has the worst top speed and reverse speed of all the 3 medium tanks. 44km forward and 18km backwards, severely limiting your ability to flank.

 

And while many claim the Panther 8.8 is slower than the T-54 Prototype, you could be true, but there is a massive difference in soft stats.

The Panther 8.8 has an unarguably great terrain resistance. Looking at tank-compare, it is 0.6/0.9/1.5. Now let's look at the T-54 Prototype. It is 1.1/1.2/1.9. That is horrid, severely limiting it's actual acceleration capacity. So this means that it is surprisingly very slow on flat ground, and the mobility is nowhere near the Type 59 or even Panther 8.8, except when you are climbing hills as the pw/wt ratio IS higher than the Panther 8.8's. But you aren't a hill fighter either, with a rather poor -6 degrees of gun depression - this IS a significant difference from the -7 of the Type 59. Think the difference between the Object 140 and the T-62A when utilizing gun depression.

 

Yes, the armor values look simply awesome on paper, and when you think of the T-54's good sloping, it's amazing for tier 8. However let's look at the actual data for any parts you may have missed from the statistics given on paper.

 

Another link: http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/12/30/t-54-prototype-historical-data/

 

When reading through the wall of text, you can see the entire roof armor of the turret is only 15mm. This means for abysmal protection from arty when combined with its mediocre speed, and also means that any tank on slightly taller ground, or any tank that is slightly taller than the T-54 prototype, will easily penetrate it every time at ANY angle over there as long as its caliber is 75mm or higher due to overmatching mechanics - calibers lower than that are VERY rarely seen for its tier level. Combined with the T-54 prototype's lower profile and the fact that it is simply configured for brawling in close quarters, any competent player knowing this fact can easily damage and defeat it. Also, when reading the slopes of the lower plate, it is significantly less than the T-54. The upper plate is almost the same as the T-54, but the lower plate is a great deal less sloped. It is only at 45 degrees, while the T-54's lower plate is approximately at 62 degrees. This cuts down its effective armor from nearly 230mm to a measly 157mm. Next, the gun mantlet is 180mm but unsloped, and if it follows the T-44's armor setup pattern (which it should, as it is based on the T-44), nothing will be behind it, so the effective turret armor is really only a bit over 180mm in it's hardest point. So, overall, the T-54 Prototype's armor is a great margin worse than advertised, and the fact that it will quite oftenly face tier 10 tanks, as it lacks preferential MM, makes the situation even worse.

 

Finally, let's look at the arnament. It has 250 alpha damage, which is average for a medium. However, it only has 175mm of penetration. This, combined with the fact its rather low mobility means it simply will struggle to penetrate many of the targets it faces. The APCR round is decent at 235 penetration, but no one wants to be firing gold if they can avoid it, especially in a premium tank that is supposed to be earning credits. The aim time is somewhat slow at 2.6 seconds, the accuracy ok at 0.38, and then we run into another problem. The ROF is only 7.41, which is slow for its alpha damage, putting out a DPM of a mere 1852.5 damage base, and the gun doesn't have the accuracy, gun handling, gun depression, penetration, or alpha damage to make up for it. In short, the gun is definitely a sore point for the tank. It won't help much against many of the tanks it faces, it's not like it can flank well to make up for its pen, AND even then the damage output is insufficient.

 

Miscellaneous: The traverse speed is fairly decent at 42 degrees, but it is limited in reality due to poor terrain resistance. The view range is the worst of all tier 8 mediums, at 360 meters of view range. 40 degrees of turret traverse is decent. The price is very high, in fact the highest for a tier 8 medium as of now, at 11,600 gold according to Tank Inspector. This is more expensive than even the T-34-3. The crew luckily fits the russian medium line tanks from tier 7 to 10 (all crew members except radio operator). The HP pool is another low at 1300 HP.

 

TL;DR and summary: The T-54 Prototype may seem quite good at a first glance, but after closer inspection you will see that it is quite mediocre in many, many aspects, and the lack of pref MM is the final straw into making an expensive, overrated, and overall poor new tier 8 premium medium. If I had something good to say about this tank (other than armor), I would say that it is very well balanced and is far from the initially OP monster that was the Type 59, WG learned from that at least. But if you're tired of running the Matilda IV when training your crews, and have lots of money to spend for your absolute favorite tank line instead of a better premium, go ahead and get it. I know I'm not going to fall in WG's hype/money scheme trap, I'm going to wait until they rebalance it again or ever will.

 

FCM 50T it is then for my next premium! Now I know THAT thing has been proven many times to be a real awesome tank. Seriously, I beg you guys to take a second look before buying the T-54 Prototype. It's far worse than its high public reputation.

 

[EDIT]

The T-54 Prototype model and data has come on in Tank Inspector, and it's just as bad as I imagined.

 

As you can see:

That roof armor. Totally not a weakspot able to be penetrated through by any tank it meets (45mm gun or higher caliber).

 

Unsloped turret cheeks, think T110E4.

 

Dat gun mantlet though. Basically flat with a massive zero-armor hole behind it.

 

"Lower plate is not a weak point." If you call a lower plate like Jagdtiger 8.8's "not a weak point".

 

 

And finally, here are the soft stats. Let's see about this acclaimed "amazing Russian gun handling". There's a reason why you see so many red arrows.

Incredibly weak module HP (especially dat ammo rack), 34 ammo capacity, 175mm penetration, terrible terrain resistance, no preferential MM, higher price than an IS-6, and terribad gun handling. Just doesn't look like a tank worth buying, even if they lower the price. Even the STA-2 and Panther 8.8 simply can't compare to this tank's level of awfulness, inflexibility, underperforming stats in practically every aspect. Since WG already modeled all the T-54 Prototype's stats, it is unlikely that they will change it to a large extent again, especially since they already have rebalanced once in the Supertest. Even with a few buffs, this tank will still be quite atrocious. Think a Super Pershing that meets tier 10s on a regular basis. 

[EDIT] Hey, here comes all those forum threads about their "favorite tank" and how they felt the tank was "awesome". Notice how nobody with more than 50 battles has made the same claim...

When you see a tier 9 medium or heavy, or a tier 8 td, you're basically absolutely screwed. The only way you can play this tank is to have your fingers crossed for amazing mm every single time you click the battle button..


Edited by The_Ghghp, May 02 2015 - 00:57.


Strike_Witch_Tomoko #2 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 05:27

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panther 8.8 has 5 frontal gun depression.  on a far bigger tank.

 

7 gun depression the side.  same sides that have a weak ammo rack.

 

so i do NOT suggest you hill fight.

 

gun depression on T-54 prototype works to hide the roof  (and IS-6 has 30mm roof.   rarely gets hit anyway)

 

and considering super p.   i think i'll take T-54 prototype cause

1. its significantly faster than Super P

2. superior gun to super p.

3. superior armor(even with weaklower plate, its still epic for medium armor)

4. turret is good, despite your complaints. thing you need to realize is after a certain lack of thickness, how thick it is ceases to matter.  at tier 8 anything less than 50 (unless its side armor)  is all the same.   aka auto pen(or as good as)

 

ALLL tank have weak roofs.   15mm wont make a difference to 30mm.  people will still pen it easy. and arty will still rip through it.

 

look at the tank again. its turret isn't that big.  take the T-44 out and try out its turret. pretty damn good cause its small and hard to hit. (and that has 120mm. not 180 freakin mm!!!)

 

 

also 90mm side armor at tier 8.  very nice for angling.   and DOUBLE THE GUN DEPRESSION that T-34-3 has.

 

 

 

compared to Type 59.  its superior in tier 8 and 9.   yes it will struggle in tier 10.  but with exp from tanking dmg coming, and that hull.  i'll take it.  

 

 

also 1852dpm is good for a tier 8 med.  HAVE YOU SEEN what most tier 8 meds get?

The view range is unexceptional, at 380 meters of view range?   dude...look at average view range at that tier.  it really isn't that different.

 

 

 

FCM50t is OP.   i wont deny its better.  but T-54 prototype is at least a good buy (unlike the other crapwe get like T-34-3, Super P, STA-2, and panther 8.8)



Kamahl1234 #3 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 05:32

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Wait, let me get this straight. You're going to declare a non-finalized, non-released tank, to existing tanks, without experience in the tank, and without even being able to get a "first look" yet?

 

GG?

 

 

For those whom aren't silly, wait for it's release to decide.



Strike_Witch_Tomoko #4 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 05:32

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View PostKamahl1234, on Feb 18 2015 - 21:32, said:

Wait, let me get this straight. You're going to declare a non-finalized, non-released tank, to existing tanks, without experience in the tank, and without even being able to get a "first look" yet?

 

GG?

 

 

For those whom aren't silly, wait for it's release to decide.

 

even if they release it as it is now. its still epic xD   compared to other tier 8 prem meds.

 

 



Kamahl1234 #5 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 05:37

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View PostAmberpaw, on Feb 19 2015 - 04:32, said:

 

even if they release it as it is now. its still epic xD   compared to other tier 8 prem meds.

 

 

 

That is true. I'm excited for the new meds, planning on grabbing a Panther 8.8 on patch, going to grab the STA-2 the next patch, and debating on whether to wait to buy the CDC for gold or cash. Love how those tanks play, and I don't see non-pref MM as bad. For some of the very reasons you've mentioned. :P

The_Ghghp #6 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 05:39

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View PostAmberpaw, on Feb 19 2015 - 04:27, said:

panther 8.8 has 5 frontal gun depression.  on a far bigger tank.

I never said the Panther 8.8 was good. I only referred to its mobility compared to the T-54 Proto.

7 gun depression the side.  same sides that have a weak ammo rack.

Same thing as above.

so i do NOT suggest you hill fight.

Same thing as above. It's silly to use the mediocre Panther 8.8 as comparison.

gun depression on T-54 prototype works to hide the roof  (and IS-6 has 30mm roof.   rarely gets hit anyway)

-6 gun depression isn't enough to work on many ridges or hills. And the primary tactic to use this tank IS brawling, it kinda sucks in everything else, you WILL meet it close up where you can easily shoot the turret roof well.

and considering super p.   i think i'll take T-54 prototype cause

1. its significantly faster than Super P

2. superior gun to super p.

3. superior armor(even with weaklower plate, its still epic for medium armor)

4. turret is good, despite your complaints. thing you need to realize is after a certain lack of thickness, how thick it is ceases to matter.  at tier 8 anything less than 50 (unless its side armor)  is all the same.   aka auto pen(or as good as)

Again, comparing the T-54 Prototype to two unarguably very mediocre counterparts isn't going to help much for its rating.

ALLL tank have weak roofs.   15mm wont make a difference to 30mm.  people will still pen it easy. and arty will still rip through it.

Except this tank has a lower profile, a big flat roof, can be penetrated by even a M3 Lee's gun in its roof, and is supposed to have armor for its strong point too.

look at the tank again. its turret isn't that big.  take the T-44 out and try out its turret. pretty damn good cause its small and hard to hit. (and that has 120mm. not 180 freakin mm!!!)

Again, it doesn't matter as it cannot utilize the turret very well in the first place.

also 90mm side armor at tier 8.  very nice for angling.   and DOUBLE THE GUN DEPRESSION that T-34-3 has.

90mm side armor doesn't excuse its bad mobility and bad gun. Double the gun depression of the T-34-3 isn't much better, and you're referring to the T-34-3's probable weakest point of the tank.

compared to Type 59.  its superior in tier 8 and 9.   yes it will struggle in tier 10.  but with exp from tanking dmg coming, and that hull.  i'll take it.  

Opinion, not fact. Lower mobility and penetration, resulting in low flexibility. And medium tanks are about flexibility.

also 1852dpm is good for a tier 8 med.  HAVE YOU SEEN what most tier 8 meds get?

Everything else about the gun is very mediocre. So you get average/sub-average DPM. Yay.

The view range is unexceptional, at 380 meters of view range?   dude...look at average view range at that tier.  it really isn't that different.

This is one large factor that it could have had - to spot when it cannot damage or block. But its view range is the lowest for its tier of a medium.

FCM50t is OP.   i wont deny its better.  but T-54 prototype is at least a good buy (unlike the other crapwe get like T-34-3, Super P, STA-2, and panther 8.8)

FCM50T is OP. But your claim that the T-54 prototype is a good buy is an opinion, not a fact.

 


Edited by The_Ghghp, Feb 20 2015 - 00:25.


Strike_Witch_Tomoko #7 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 05:39

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View PostKamahl1234, on Feb 18 2015 - 21:37, said:

 

That is true. I'm excited for the new meds, planning on grabbing a Panther 8.8 on patch, going to grab the STA-2 the next patch, and debating on whether to wait to buy the CDC for gold or cash. Love how those tanks play, and I don't see non-pref MM as bad. For some of the very reasons you've mentioned. :P

 

uh....

ok...but i'd advise against panther 8.8 and STA-2.....both are rather.....weak

 

no armor, not enough mobility for no armor

 

and guns arent that good.

 

AMX CDC is like a STA-1 fully upgraded on steroids



The_Ghghp #8 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 05:40

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View PostKamahl1234, on Feb 19 2015 - 04:37, said:

 

That is true. I'm excited for the new meds, planning on grabbing a Panther 8.8 on patch, going to grab the STA-2 the next patch, and debating on whether to wait to buy the CDC for gold or cash. Love how those tanks play, and I don't see non-pref MM as bad. For some of the very reasons you've mentioned. :P

 

The lack of Pref MM is bad for a tank that basically can't scratch a dent most tier 10s, and relies on its tier's armor to compete. Not mobility, not vision abusing mechanics.

Edited by The_Ghghp, Feb 21 2015 - 23:09.


Windows_Are_Tasty #9 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 05:41

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So, FCM 50t is still the best purchasable premium medium?

The_Ghghp #10 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 05:45

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View PostIOC_Cartmen, on Feb 19 2015 - 04:41, said:

So, FCM 50t is still the best purchasable premium medium?

 

Obviously. Negged for the truth? Any reasonable person would know that the FCM 50T is by many accounts a medium, not a heavy tank.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by The_Ghghp, Feb 21 2015 - 23:12.


The_Ghghp #11 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 05:47

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View PostAmberpaw, on Feb 19 2015 - 04:39, said:

AMX CDC is like a STA-1 fully upgraded on steroids

Or rather a FCM 50T on steroids.



Strike_Witch_Tomoko #12 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 05:47

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View PostThe_Ghghp, on Feb 18 2015 - 21:40, said:

 

Pref MM is bad for a tank that basically can't scratch a dent most tier 10s, and relies on its tier's armor to compete. Not mobility, not vision abusing mechanics.

 

like T-44, T-34-2, Pershing?

 

all can barely scratch tier 10.

 

but all see it anyway.  (and thus wargaming has some pretty fked up ideas of balance)

 

T-54 prototype is better than those in tier 10 due to armor and yet also has prem credits

 

View PostThe_Ghghp, on Feb 18 2015 - 21:47, said:

Or rather a FCM 50T on steroids.

 

no. FCM50t has prem MM and armor(80 side armor for sidescraping and 120 to be immune to 160 pen guns. try it out. you'll be surprised how good it is at bouncing those



Avalon304 #13 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 05:50

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View PostAmberpaw, on Feb 18 2015 - 20:39, said:

 

uh....

ok...but i'd advise against panther 8.8 and STA-2.....both are rather.....weak

 

 

 

I know nothing of the STA-2, but the Panther 8,8cm is decent. The gun is better than the gun on the Panther II and its not too slow. Positioned correctly its a decent tank. (Its not fantastic, but its not the worst thing in the world.) Neither is the Super Pershing if played properly. (And this comes form a person who does not fire gold unless theres absolutely no other way)



Strike_Witch_Tomoko #14 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 05:56

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View PostAvalon304, on Feb 18 2015 - 21:50, said:

 

 

I know nothing of the STA-2, but the Panther 8,8cm is decent. The gun is better than the gun on the Panther II and its not too slow. Positioned correctly its a decent tank. (Its not fantastic, but its not the worst thing in the world.) Neither is the Super Pershing if played properly. (And this comes form a person who does not fire gold unless theres absolutely no other way)

 

the problem is, panther 8.8's gun might be decent. but the rest of it isn't.   

i've actually found tiger 1 better to play than it...and tiger 1 has better MM/armor.

 

its gun is better than panther 2's gun yes.  but panther 2 wasn't much to brag about (other than having -8 gun depression all round. a 100mm upper plate that when used correctly bounces VERY nicely.  and 60mm side that works.

 

oh...and panther 2 has a pretty nice mantlet(not reliable on the turret. but the mantlet can be expected to bounce some)

 

in the end.  neither of those 2 tanks are particularly good(panther 2 can ram though.)

 

T-54 prototype is on a new level (not as good a gun, but with the armor, i expect it would kill panther 8.8 very easily. seeing as how panther 8.8 can't easily aim at its lower plate without giving a ammo rack to shoot at.

 

and T-54prototype has russian accuracy on the move/ camo.



The_Ghghp #15 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 06:01

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View PostAmberpaw, on Feb 19 2015 - 04:47, said:

 

like T-44, T-34-2, Pershing?

 

all can barely scratch tier 10.

 

but all see it anyway.  (and thus wargaming has some pretty fked up ideas of balance)

 

T-54 prototype is better than those in tier 10 due to armor and yet also has prem credits

 

 

no. FCM50t has prem MM and armor(80 side armor for sidescraping and 120 to be immune to 160 pen guns. try it out. you'll be surprised how good it is at bouncing those

 

T-44 has great mobility, high camo, high accuracy, and high gun handling. And it's not like it is considered to be great.

T-34-2 is a terrible tank. Irrelevant.

The Pershing has advantages in turret armor, gun depression, view range, gun handling, premium ammunition, and generally a great balanced tank that can be a jack-of-all-trades.
 

I'm going to say yes, the AMX CDC is the FCM 50t on steroids, as it amplifies and increases its general strengths even more while weakening even further its weaknesses. Pref MM was OP on the FCM 50T, I guess WG learned their lesson on that - they can't nerf the pref MM on the FCM as it would cause large whining and complaining (it's a premium tank paid for by money).


Edited by The_Ghghp, Feb 19 2015 - 06:02.


Strike_Witch_Tomoko #16 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 06:05

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View PostThe_Ghghp, on Feb 18 2015 - 22:01, said:

 

T-44 has great mobility, high camo, high accuracy, and high gun handling. And it's not like it is considered to be great.

T-34-2 is a terrible tank. Irrelevant.

The Pershing has advantages in turret armor, gun depression, view range, gun handling, premium ammunition, and generally a great balanced tank that can be a jack-of-all-trades.
 

I'm going to say yes, the AMX CDC is the FCM 50t on steroids, as it amplifies and increases its general strengths even more while weakening even further its weaknesses. Pref MM was OP on the FCM 50T, I guess WG learned their lesson on that - they can't nerf the pref MM on the FCM as it would cause large whining and complaining (it's a premium tank paid for by money).

T-44 vs T-54prototype.  

T-44 has mobility.   but they share camo and gun handling.   accuracy is a mix for them.

pershing vs t-54 prototype

pershing's turret is actually weaker overall, due to t-54prot's turret angles (also the mantlet on T-54 proto is deceptive)

pershing has better view range, gun depression yes.   but gun handling....its up for debate.  russians get a very very generous accuracy on the move for their soft stats.


Edited by Amberpaw, Feb 19 2015 - 06:06.


Avalon304 #17 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 06:23

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View PostAmberpaw, on Feb 18 2015 - 20:56, said:

 

the problem is, panther 8.8's gun might be decent. but the rest of it isn't. 

 

 

{please read this next phrase in the voice of Jeremy Clarkson) Except it is... (Ok...) The Panther 8,8cm is, by-and-large, decent. It's not slow. Its not fast. Its armor is ok against lower tiers, but not good against higher (but in higher tier games you shouldnt be getting hit anyway.) The gun is great, and more than enough to handle whatever it sees (when being properly played). Its just middle of the road decent. Theres nothing outstandingly bad about it, similarly theres nothing outstandingly good about it either (except maybe the gun).

 

The armor on the T-54Prot is ok, but taller tanks with depression are gonna just aim down on the UFP. And the turrent wont be that reliable, in Tier 9-10 if the T-44 turret is anything to go by. But Im gonna wait to see before I rally speculate on how the T-54Prot will play. (And saying russian on the move accuracy doesnt inspire confidence, because thats about as rng as rng can get... because Stalin.)



_Koi #18 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 06:27

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View PostAvalon304, on Feb 19 2015 - 05:23, said:

 

 

 Its just middle of the road decent. Theres nothing outstandingly bad about it, similarly theres nothing outstandingly good about it either.

 

 

 

Charlie brown tank.



CaptianSparkIez #19 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 06:35

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(Off Topic)

I still loled how FCM has pref matchmaking. 

Wg has now forgotten their rule. "Tier 8 tanks are not pay to win but they are as effective as a tier 8 stock tank"  (You so silly WG)

 

The FCM is just Fun. 



FastestClassic #20 Posted Feb 19 2015 - 06:46

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The main thing I'm worried about as to this tank is the gun. 175 pen isn't bad for a medium gun, but as said by the OP, the tank is definitely slower than the T-44, so getting side/rear shots isn't going to be as easy for the T-54 Proto. This isn't really a big issue against tier 8-9 tanks, but I'd imagine that tier 10 battles in the Proto would be quite painful. Oh well, only time will tell.




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