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An Israeli Tech Tree in World of Tanks

Israeli Israel Merkava Magach Tiran Sherman Centurion

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M477145_N1l550n #21 Posted Mar 09 2015 - 19:35

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Mar 09 2015 - 12:41, said:

The Sho't Kal has less horsepower and similar armor to the current tier 9 Centurion 7/1, so there's nothing tier 10 about it unless we give it the 120mm L/11. As for the Merkava, there's nothing "fully modern" on the Mk. 1 version. It was designed to refight the Golan Heights battles of 1973, and as such would be great defensively, but rather poor offensively. And its armor isn't very good, consisting of nothing more at the front than two relatively thin armor plates which are interlocking welded, and in between which are armored fuel tanks. It's also very tall and extremely heavy, and much like the Chieftain son to appear as the tier 10 British heavy, the upper glacis relies on sloping in order to stop rounds. The tier 8 in my tree is nothing more than a Centurion chassis that has been reversed and had its guts ripped out and rearranged, and the tier 9 would probably have similar hull armor to the tier 10, but little gun depression and only an M48 turret which isn't the most well armored thing in the game considering the T95E2 uses the same turret on a tier 8 premium medium. Really the biggest comparison I can make is to the current tiers 8-10 British heavy line, with the Israeli tier 8 heavy having way less armor but a much bigger cannon in the 105mm L7.

Still, people are going to see the "Merkava" name and just assume the worst. You know how players in this game are.



Life_In_Black #22 Posted Mar 09 2015 - 20:57

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View PostM477145_N1l550n, on Mar 09 2015 - 14:35, said:

Still, people are going to see the "Merkava" name and just assume the worst. You know how players in this game are.

 

Eh, I don't like the idea of removing tanks simply because pubbies are going to cry foul because of the name.

Life_In_Black #23 Posted Mar 09 2015 - 22:35

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The TDs

 

Israel was never big on tank destroyers, operating some captured Egyptian Archers, as well as a few 17pdr armed Achilles as separate tank destroyer attachments. So in WoT terms, the Tank Destroyer line is the most problematic because the tier 7 and 8 were only captured vehicles and the tier 9 is mysterious as there's only one picture of it online. Nevertheless, they would be welcome additions to the game and are truly unique. Again, I've limited things to those vehicles which are unique wherever possible, thus the TD line starting at tier 7 even though the Archer and Achilles could round out tiers 5 and 6.

 

T-122

Syrian project mounting a 122mm D-30 Howitzer on a rear facing T-34/85 chassis. Captured by Israel. Would have a reasonably low profile and pretty good horizontal traverse of the cannon, albeit little gun depression. Similar stats to the in-game 122mm D-25 should be sufficient to make it work. Would move faster backwards than forwards given the setup.

 

Think of a Sturer Emil that would be able to get out of trouble quicker than it got into it, as well as having much greater horizontal traverse.

 

T-100

Egyptian project mounting the 100mm [edited]-3 in a heavily modified T-34/85 turret. Captured by Israel. Given the [edited]-3 is more or less a copy of the 100mm D-10 cannon, and this project being from the late '60s, later ammunition would make this a potent anti-tank gun given the turret mount.

 

The slower, more methodical counterpart to the Charioteer.

 

T-55-122

Name invented by myself due to a lack of info. Is a 122mm D-30 mounted on a T-55 chassis, possibly used in Lebanon before falling into Israeli hands, or could be an Israeli project for friendly Lebanese forces. Going to need some unhistorical modules in order to work at tier 9, but with the strong chassis and later ammunition could be used to give it better versions of the D-30 and [edited]-3, like the D-10 and D-25 are spread out in-game over multiple variants at different tiers. The 130mm M-46 could also be an option if balanced properly. Only known picture is by Michael Mass, who I believe is vice president (or something equally important) of the Yad Lashiryon armor museum as well as an author and IDF historian.

 

EDIT: Name changed to T-55-122 as this was a captured Lebanese vehicle, not an Israeli one.

 

There's also a similar Egyptian project, but that's for another thread.

 

M-72

Later project to mount a Soltam 155mm L/39 or L/52 cannon in a turret in order to create a cost-effective modern-ish artillery. Prototype used a modified Centurion chassis, but the turret was to be useable on almost any basic medium chassis. So a T-55, M48, or Centurion chassis would all be viable options. Perhaps the T-55 might be best to keep some sort of continuity with the Soviet theme of the rest of the TD line.

 

Would be similar to the FV4005 only with a low profile, better speed and maneuverability, and a much more viable cannon.



JAGDPANTHER_1945 #24 Posted Mar 09 2015 - 23:59

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I'd put my 2 cents into playing a Israeli tech tree.  Great work gathering the info, but I would be personally mad if Israel gets its own tech tree and Italy doesn't since a lot of these tanks are foreign tank chassis with "mix-match" guns, turrets and engines.  Looks nice though!  

Life_In_Black #25 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 00:37

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View PostJAGDPANTHER_1945, on Mar 09 2015 - 18:59, said:

I'd put my 2 cents into playing a Israeli tech tree.  Great work gathering the info, but I would be personally mad if Israel gets its own tech tree and Italy doesn't since a lot of these tanks are foreign tank chassis with "mix-match" guns, turrets and engines.  Looks nice though!  

 

I'm only half joking when I say that combining Israel and Italy into one tech tree would solve most of the problems with both of the trees. Plus, the original plan for the M48s purchased by Israel from West Germany, was to ship them to Italy for modernization, but this fell through due to politics.

JAGDPANTHER_1945 #26 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 00:45

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Mar 10 2015 - 00:37, said:

 

I'm only half joking when I say that combining Israel and Italy into one tech tree would solve most of the problems with both of the trees. Plus, the original plan for the M48s purchased by Israel from West Germany, was to ship them to Italy for modernization, but this fell through due to politics.

 

not that just if Israel gets there own and Italy gets meshed into EU tree

Life_In_Black #27 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 01:14

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View PostJAGDPANTHER_1945, on Mar 09 2015 - 19:45, said:

 

not that just if Israel gets there own and Italy gets meshed into EU tree

 

I don't see Italy getting thrown into the European tree, as I think the European tree itself is kind of dead at the moment. Latest information is that the Czechs and Swedish will get their own tech trees, and that Italy will get their own as well, but who knows how long that would take given that late this year is rumored to be the Czech tree and sometime next year is rumored to be the Swedish tree. So we'll just have to wait and see.

JAGDPANTHER_1945 #28 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 01:54

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Mar 10 2015 - 01:14, said:

 

I don't see Italy getting thrown into the European tree, as I think the European tree itself is kind of dead at the moment. Latest information is that the Czechs and Swedish will get their own tech trees, and that Italy will get their own as well, but who knows how long that would take given that late this year is rumored to be the Czech tree and sometime next year is rumored to be the Swedish tree. So we'll just have to wait and see.

 

yeah heard that after first post.  Kind of hope so for WG sake because if they mosh everything into a mess of a EU tree, even though it will have 5 classes. less time consuming for tanks "meaning after a while they will lose tanks to put into the game"  Stick lines like the current japan and china are perfectly fine and it gives them room to expand the line if need be. Also not to mess with multi national flags/consumables/crew bios/camos/etc.  Much easier for them to eventally add 4+ nations tech trees over 4+ years than a mess of a Multi one in about 2 with no new tanks in the future  

Strv74 #29 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 02:49

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I would prefer if it was called a pan africa/arabia tree if it uses all these captured tanks. 

Life_In_Black #30 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 02:59

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View PostStrv74, on Mar 09 2015 - 21:49, said:

I would prefer if it was called a pan africa/arabia tree if it uses all these captured tanks. 

 

Aside from the M.13/40 and Sherman FL-10 which I have listed as premiums, only the Vickers Light Mk. VIB, T-122, and T-100 weren't used by Israel, even though they were captured. Everything else was either used or modified in some way. So I disagree that it needs to be called anything other than an Israeli tree. If anything, the TD line could be scrapped and used in an Arab Legion tech tree instead, with the M-72 going over to the arty branch. As for other captured tanks, does it make a difference if it's a captured tank or if it was a foreign tank that was purchased? Besides, an Arab tech tree isn't impossible to create either.

Donward #31 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 03:26

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I don't always enjoy New Nation Tech Tree posts, but when I do, it's when they are well researched and thought out. Good job man. Nice read.

FISSION_CURES_ANIME #32 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 03:29

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Good thread, would read again.

Life_In_Black #33 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 03:51

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View PostDonward, on Mar 09 2015 - 22:26, said:

I don't always enjoy New Nation Tech Tree posts, but when I do, it's when they are well researched and thought out. Good job man. Nice read.

 

View PostLostCosmonaut, on Mar 09 2015 - 22:29, said:

Good thread, would read again.

 

Thank you both. I wouldn't have posted anything unless it was well thought out.

balmung60 #34 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 03:57

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Very nice.  Can't wait to see the arty.



Life_In_Black #35 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 04:31

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Artillery: Early Days

 

Self propelled artillery has always played a big part in the IDF, with the first vehicles being AMX Mk 61s and M7 Priests, and this American and French flavor of SPGs continues throughout the artillery branch of the tree.

 

M7 Priest w/ roof

A locally modified M7 Priest with a corrugated metal roof over part of the back of the superstructure. While cosmetically different from the current in-game M7 Priest, it would have the same gun choices.

 

I've also found mention of these being upgraded with better cannons, but haven't found anything concrete on the matter. So it could be bumped up to a tier 4 if necessary and a regular M7 Priest put in at tier 3. In the second photo, you can still see the original olive drab paint scheme early IDF vehicles were painted in.

 

AMX Mk 61

The same vehicle as the French tier 5 artillery, only balanced a tier lower. Alternately, this and the M7 Priest with the roof could be bumped up to tiers 4 and 5 respectively, and the regular M7 Priest slotted in at tier 3. This would mean the M-50 155mm VVSS wouldn't be necessary, and could be the stock hull for the M-50 155mm, or a premium SPG.

 

Could be removed, or bumped up to tier 5, depending on how Wargaming feels.

 

M-50 155mm VVSS

Initial model of the M-50 artillery mounting the French 155mm Model 1950 cannon on a standard VVSS Sherman. Could be folded into M-50 155mm as the stock version. Israel made no distinction between suspensions, so the names are inventions by myself to differentiate the two.

 

Splitting this vehicle into two suspension varieties is completely arbitrary, as like the Sexton I, it could also be a premium artillery if Wargaming were so inclined.

 

M-50 155mm HVSS

Later model of the M-50 artillery using an HVSS Sherman. Could still have the stock suspension module be called “VVSS”.

 

This is the more commonly known version of the vehicle. Its successor was developed as the Israelis didn't like the crew not being protected.



Life_In_Black #36 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 04:31

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Artillery: Latter Days

 

Those weren't the only Israeli SPGs however, as in addition to operating US designs, Israel continued to develop their own.

 

L-33 Ro'em

A modified Sherman chassis using a Soltam 155mm M-68 L/33 cannon. Traverse was extremely narrow, something to keep in mind when balancing it.

 

This featured a fully enclosed superstructure, something its predecessor the M-50 155mm didn't have.

 

L-39

Concept for an upgraded version of the L-33 Ro'em using the longer Soltam 155mm M-71 L/39 cannon. Never went anywhere further than that.

 

As can be seen, there's a decidedly French flair with the SPG line up through tier 8. [No photo for this one since it only remained an idea near as I can tell. I suspect they felt that upgrading M109s was a better idea]

 

M107

Unlikely to appear in the US tech tree, so used here for an Israeli tier 9 SPG. Uses a 175mm M113 cannon with very good range, albeit less splash than most other tier 9 artillery in the game.

 

The M109 wasn't the only American SPG operated by the IDF, the M107 and M110 were also used extensively. Since this cannon isn't in the game currently, it could be balanced as a tier 9-10 cannon for artillery, similar to the 183mm on the FV3805 and the 180mm on the Object 261.

 

M110

American 8in SPG that like the M107 is unlikely to appear in the American tech tree, and thus used here for Israel. Could also possibly use the 175mm cannon as well, giving people a choice between a closer range, large splash radius, or a longer range and less splash damage.

 

Would play similarly to the tier 9 and 10 American artillery.



Trophy_Wench #37 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 05:09

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Not bad Life, not bad at all. Will definitely be watching this space. I am wondering though, do you think it would be worth it to have separate Israeli and some sort of amalgamated pan-Arab TT's or would you rather the unique Arab stuff just stay is Israeli premiums?

Life_In_Black #38 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 05:53

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View PostTrophy_Wench, on Mar 10 2015 - 00:09, said:

Not bad Life, not bad at all. Will definitely be watching this space. I am wondering though, do you think it would be worth it to have separate Israeli and some sort of amalgamated pan-Arab TT's or would you rather the unique Arab stuff just stay is Israeli premiums?

 

I would be fine with giving up the premium captured tanks for a potential Arab League tree, and I'd be ok with the Israeli TD line being scrapped for the same reason. With the sole exception of the IS-3, as Israel did use it in combat and it doesn't quite fit into any potential Arab branch. All things considered, an Arab TD line up to tier 10 is definitely doable and would be fairly unique.



NutrientibusMeaGallus #39 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 07:17

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  Very well thought out. I think the problems with an Israeli tech tree is a lot of these tanks are already in other trees (granted not with the modifications a lot of these have), and the early merkava still runs (i think) a smooth bore, which wg said is a no no. Personally, I'd like to see an Israeli tree. I don't think it will happen because a lot of the tanks would be repeats of other trees, even with the differences, dunno if they'd see it as enough differences to justify it...

 

  And the Priest with a corrugated roof.... In the desert.... I wonder how much they hated that tank? It's like a microwave designed to cook tankers... If I was commander of that and one of my guys welded that on... I know who'd be walking home from maneuvers... The original canvas tops for them would breathe better, and be able to be removed and put back on more easily... I'm kind of willing to bet that was something done by locals to use the thing as a shed or something where it was sitting..



Kharsis #40 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 10:16

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View PostM477145_N1l550n, on Mar 10 2015 - 06:35, said:

Still, people are going to see the "Merkava" name and just assume the worst. You know how players in this game are.

 

It shouldn't be a problem as we are soon going to have two Main battle Tanks in the game - Leopard 1 (already in game), Chieftain (coming soon).  This is in addition to tanks that are borderline MBTs anyway ( eg T54, M60)





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