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An Israeli Tech Tree in World of Tanks

Israeli Israel Merkava Magach Tiran Sherman Centurion

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Damiler #241 Posted Sep 23 2015 - 01:10

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View Postrivit, on Sep 20 2015 - 14:07, said:

^*sign*

I guess I have to repeat this here.

I was given the word roughly two weeks ago that Italy has a full tree. To expect me to know exactly what the game devs intend for tier placement is asking a bit much. These guys lock themselves into a closet sized office with a Ouija board and a crystal ball and decide the destiny of this game. My initial statements remain the same; Italy has a full tech tree. Some people on this forum can't stand to hear it from me but that's their problem. It's not my fault that I was ordained to spread this information. And who better to spread this word than an incorrigible Italian tank fan like me?                

 

Full? Full of copies.

Life_In_Black #242 Posted Sep 23 2015 - 01:30

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View PostK00Ldude98, on Sep 22 2015 - 20:04, said:

Another thing if you want to look into it, is looking to replace your tiers 2-5. I Think the R35 would be better suited down at tier 2 where the h39 is at since it would not be in my opinion, on par with other tier 3 tanks. I also think the locust would be suited to the tier 4 spot since it is basically the premium locust but one tier higher. It doesn't make much sense to me. Lastly, Your tier 5 Sherman would be fine in my book, if there weren't 2 almost identical tier 5 Sherman's in the game already. I think if you can, you should try to find something different in those tiers. I know there might not be much but I think if you could try to replace and rearrange it would make the tech tree more appealing to WG and the player base.

 

Well, there are several problems with finding replacements. First, The R-35 was fitted with a 2-pdr and saw service that way with at least Lebanon and possibly Syria, so for tier 3, it would work fine. At tier 2 with a 2-pdr, it would outclass the French version which is something we don't want. The H-39 on the other hand, only had a dummy gun that appears to be a 2-pdr grafted onto the turret, so it's more suited for tier 2. The only issue that arises from that is that it's essentially no different from the German premium Pz.Kpfw. 38H 735(f). Then again, that thing has been powercreeped into being kind of normal compared to the French H35 and R35, so that may not be an issue. As for the M-22 Locust, as it is now at tier 3, it's speed, armor, and armament are all pretty close to that of the tier 4 scout M5 Stuart, so I think it could work quite nicely as a tier 4 light with normal matchmaking, think something like a Ke-Ho. Plus the Israelis did plan on servicing and upgrading them in 1949, but nothing ever came of it. So there is some potential.

 

Which brings me to the only other tier 4 candidate, another Sherman. The Israelis rearmed several M4 Shermans with the 105mm M4 howitzer as the howitzers had all been demilled by having holes drilled through the barrels. So several 105mm Howitzer armed Shermans were rearmed with 75mm M3 guns, which were rearmed in time to see combat in 1948, while others were rearmed with 75mm Krupp Model 1911 howitzers acquired from Switzerland of all places. So under Israeli naming convention, the tier 4 Sherman would be called M-4, denoting the parent tank's armament, but it wouldn't actually be armed with the 105mm M4 howitzer as that would be brutally overpowered at tier 4 on a turreted tank with reasonable armor. I can imagine that causing some butthurt among players who actually realize why it's named M-4, but if the vehicle isn't used as a tier 4 medium, it makes a decent tier 4 premium candidate.

 

As for replacing the tier 5 Sherman, the only other candidate to replace it is a Syrian Pz.Kpfw. IV, which isn't ideal both because it wasn't operated by Israel (it would only have been tested briefly by the Israeli Ordnance folks), and because at best you're looking at 12hp/ton power to weight ratio with the historical 300hp HL-120 engine. So it would be slow, not very maneuverable, and wouldn't do very will with hills and slopes. No regular T-34s saw service in the Middle East, only T-34/85s, and there are no other tier 5 mediums candidates, save for maybe the Cromwell, which isn't an option thanks to the Cromwell Berlin being in the game. And I shudder to think how badly T-34/85 would have to be nerfed to work at tier 5.



A_Crusty_Body_Pillow #243 Posted Sep 23 2015 - 02:03

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Sep 22 2015 - 16:30, said:

 

Well, there are several problems with finding replacements. First, The R-35 was fitted with a 2-pdr and saw service that way with at least Lebanon and possibly Syria, so for tier 3, it would work fine. At tier 2 with a 2-pdr, it would outclass the French version which is something we don't want. The H-39 on the other hand, only had a dummy gun that appears to be a 2-pdr grafted onto the turret, so it's more suited for tier 2. The only issue that arises from that is that it's essentially no different from the German premium Pz.Kpfw. 38H 735(f). Then again, that thing has been powercreeped into being kind of normal compared to the French H35 and R35, so that may not be an issue. As for the M-22 Locust, as it is now at tier 3, it's speed, armor, and armament are all pretty close to that of the tier 4 scout M5 Stuart, so I think it could work quite nicely as a tier 4 light with normal matchmaking, think something like a Ke-Ho. Plus the Israelis did plan on servicing and upgrading them in 1949, but nothing ever came of it. So there is some potential.

 

Which brings me to the only other tier 4 candidate, another Sherman. The Israelis rearmed several M4 Shermans with the 105mm M4 howitzer as the howitzers had all been demilled by having holes drilled through the barrels. So several 105mm Howitzer armed Shermans were rearmed with 75mm M3 guns, which were rearmed in time to see combat in 1948, while others were rearmed with 75mm Krupp Model 1911 howitzers acquired from Switzerland of all places. So under Israeli naming convention, the tier 4 Sherman would be called M-4, denoting the parent tank's armament, but it wouldn't actually be armed with the 105mm M4 howitzer as that would be brutally overpowered at tier 4 on a turreted tank with reasonable armor. I can imagine that causing some butthurt among players who actually realize why it's named M-4, but if the vehicle isn't used as a tier 4 medium, it makes a decent tier 4 premium candidate.

 

As for replacing the tier 5 Sherman, the only other candidate to replace it is a Syrian Pz.Kpfw. IV, which isn't ideal both because it wasn't operated by Israel (it would only have been tested briefly by the Israeli Ordnance folks), and because at best you're looking at 12hp/ton power to weight ratio with the historical 300hp HL-120 engine. So it would be slow, not very maneuverable, and wouldn't do very will with hills and slopes. No regular T-34s saw service in the Middle East, only T-34/85s, and there are no other tier 5 mediums candidates, save for maybe the Cromwell, which isn't an option thanks to the Cromwell Berlin being in the game. And I shudder to think how badly T-34/85 would have to be nerfed to work at tier 5.

I see. Although I'm still not sure about tier 3, the locust could work at tier 4 if it got some upgrades like you said. Question is. What were the proposed upgrades?



Life_In_Black #244 Posted Sep 23 2015 - 02:11

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View PostK00Ldude98, on Sep 22 2015 - 21:03, said:

I see. Although I'm still not sure about tier 3, the locust could work at tier 4 if it got some upgrades like you said. Question is. What were the proposed upgrades?

 

Israel didn't have anything in mind, just that the M-22s were slated to be serviced and upgraded (the original 37mm M6 guns had all been demilled, so the Egyptians and Israelis were only using the machine guns on them), so presumably the 37mm M6 would either be repaired, or if that wasn't possible, replaced. Possible candidates would probably be the 2-pdr and the 6-pdr, maybe even a German 5cm PaK 38. Much like for the Vickers Light Mk. VIB, I'll try and make a list of possible cannons that could have been fitted to the M-22. Possibly look into a bigger engine too maybe. While unhistorical in one sense in that such things were never mounted, it would be historical for the time given the chaotic nature of the scavenging for arms in the Middle East at the time.

Legiondude #245 Posted Sep 24 2015 - 14:57

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Block Quote

 An Israeli tank tree is possible in theory (similar to China with lots of clones), top – Merkava 1 or its prototype.

This is probably going to be the closest you'll get to acknowledgement for a good long while

 



Life_In_Black #246 Posted Sep 24 2015 - 15:01

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View PostLegiondude, on Sep 24 2015 - 09:57, said:

This is probably going to be the closest you'll get to acknowledgement for a good long while

 

 

I completely missed that. I know an Israeli tech tree has been considered for almost as long as the game has been around at this point, so we'll just have to see. I need to start working on creating some historical tank battles from 1967 and 1973 that Wargaming could use to revamp the historical battles mode. At the very least though, Israeli vehicles are iconic and saw combat, which gives them a leg up over other clones that could appear in the game.



A_Crusty_Body_Pillow #247 Posted Sep 24 2015 - 23:29

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Sep 24 2015 - 06:01, said:

 

I completely missed that. I know an Israeli tech tree has been considered for almost as long as the game has been around at this point, so we'll just have to see. I need to start working on creating some historical tank battles from 1967 and 1973 that Wargaming could use to revamp the historical battles mode. At the very least though, Israeli vehicles are iconic and saw combat, which gives them a leg up over other clones that could appear in the game.

 

Do you know if you are going to make a tier 1-10 tech tree mock up image? And also when you get the modules hammered down could you make a post listing all the tanks in or order with complete modules and stats? Just wondering because although you listed all of the tanks I don't know whats where at the higher tiers and such. I think having something like that, that people can look at when they click your post can give people a better understating of what your trying to do.

Life_In_Black #248 Posted Sep 24 2015 - 23:36

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View PostK00Ldude98, on Sep 24 2015 - 18:29, said:

 

Do you know if you are going to make a tier 1-10 tech tree mock up image? And also when you get the modules hammered down could you make a post listing all the tanks in or order with complete modules and stats? Just wondering because although you listed all of the tanks I don't know whats where at the higher tiers and such. I think having something like that, that people can look at when they click your post can give people a better understating of what your trying to do.

 

I can do that then. Right now, I've been working on the module list slowly as classes are taking up a decent enough chunk of my time and I spend way too much time lurking around here. But yeah, some sort of visual representation would be nice for people to see.

Life_In_Black #249 Posted Sep 27 2015 - 21:12

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Alright, figured I'd post some potential tech tree scenarios. The first two are only different in the choice of tier 10 medium for the Tiran line, and are revised versions of the original tech tree. Here's the first one with the Samovar as the tier 10:

 

And here's same tree, with the Tiran 6 Sharir (T-62 with the 105mm L7) instead of the Samovar:

 

Now we get to some of the more interesting scenarios. It's possible to better flesh out the "Soviet" medium line while keeping the TD line, as well as adding another medium branch:

 

And including the Samovar like the Object 140 is currently, branching off of existing tier 9s:

 

Some notes. First, the M-72 was developed as a cost effective alternative to the M109 back during the mid 1970s when it looked likely that the US wouldn't sell M109s to Israel. As such, it was basically a 155mm cannon in a turret meant to be used on existing MBT chassis, and was tested on a modified Centurion chassis. So stretching it out is entirely possible, and using the Centurion (Sho't) variant at tier 8 can be handled similar to how the FV4005 Stage II is, with the weaker engine and 35km/h speed limit. Even if it's the Sho't Kal that's used, it would have a better power to weight ratio but the 35km/h speed limit could be kept. Which would make it akin to the Rhm.-Borsig WT, only bigger, larger, and not as overpowered if the soft stats are handled right.

 

Second, the Magach 110 and Sho't 120 are both fully historical, with the Magach 110 being an alternative plan to the Merkava back when Britain screwed over Israel on licensed Chieftain production. The 110mm is an experimental British cannon that was an evolution of the 105mm L7 that later evolved into the 120mm L30, and was designed to fit into existing 105mm L7 mounts. The Sho't 120 was a plan back in the mid 1960s to mount the 120mm L11 in the Israeli Centurions, something the British found was feasible. However the 105mm L7 had already been proven and was half the cost, so that's what Israel went with.

 

Third, the Samovar and Tiran 6 Sharir. The Samovar is a modified T-55 featuring a new American engine (an uprated version of the engine on the M107/M110/M109), adjusted suspension, a modified turret with the communications equipment moved to an armored box added to the rear, etc. Basically a better T-55 in every way and much easier to balance as a tier 10. This also allows for combining the Tiran 4 and Tiran 5 into a single tank at tier 9. The Tiran 6 Sharir is a Tiran 6 (T-62) rearmed with the Sharir, which is what the IDF's ordnance chaps call the 105mm L7 cannon. While the Tiran 6s were never rearmed, it was considered in 1973 after the Yom Kippur War due to a lack of 115mm ammunition. I don't believe the Tiran 6s were in service for too long, so that might be why they were never rearmed.

 

Fourth, the Mule and Testbed are names I came up with to differentiate between the Merkava prototypes without resorting to calling them long names. The Mule is the Centurion prototype for the Merkava with the reversed Centurion chassis and a rear mounted Centurion turret. It's often referred to as a mule, so that's the name I went with. The Testbed is the name for the Merkava prototype using an M48 turret on a Merkava chassis.

 

Fifth, the Romach and Kardom are the Israeli names for the M107 and M110 respectively.

 

I'll go and edit into the OP either the first or second scenario as it's much more accurate than the old one at this point.



Golgrin #250 Posted Sep 28 2015 - 00:00

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View PostLife_In_Black, on May 16 2015 - 22:02, said:

 

Some photos of an Israel M10 with the 75mm CN-75 50:

 

Sources:

Wild Broncos: The Development and the Changes of the IDF Armour - 1949-1956 - Amiad Brezner

https://picasaweb.go...voed/IDFTracked

 

I want this M10 variant ingame so bad! Ever since I read about it in Lion & Lioness Vol. 1. Very nice to finally see actual pictures of it too. I want it as a techtree TD, so they don't downtune it to make it inferior to non-premium techtree tanks.

 

I wonder if any of them took part in the 1956 crisis.



Life_In_Black #251 Posted Sep 28 2015 - 00:12

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View PostGolgrin, on Sep 27 2015 - 19:00, said:

 

I want this M10 variant ingame so bad! Ever since I read about it in Lion & Lioness Vol. 1. Very nice to finally see actual pictures of it too. I want it as a techtree TD, so they don't downtune it to make it inferior to non-premium techtree tanks.

 

I wonder if any of them took part in the 1956 crisis.

 

As far as I know, none of them took part and were probably modified afterwards, as the engines from the captured Egyptian M4A4/A2 hybrids were mounted in the M10s, which were all withdrawn from service by 1966. I need to write an updated version of that article on the M10 I wrote and get it up on Status Report. As it stands, it makes for a great tier 7 TD given the French 75mm is woefully under performing in-game.

KaiserMartens #252 Posted Sep 28 2015 - 17:18

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Honestly guys, the chinese tree experience was bad enough as is with all those copies. Wouldn't it honestly be better to include the few actual Israeli tanks as American tree premiums?

Life_In_Black #253 Posted Sep 28 2015 - 18:09

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View PostKaiserMartens, on Sep 28 2015 - 12:18, said:

Honestly guys, the chinese tree experience was bad enough as is with all those copies. Wouldn't it honestly be better to include the few actual Israeli tanks as American tree premiums?

 

No, it wouldn't. Unlike the Chinese tree, the Israeli tree would be much more iconic, and would have seen actual combat.

_Captain_Haddock_ #254 Posted Sep 29 2015 - 05:25

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I read the whole forum and I really like this tree. You even got the support of a pro player! The merkava seems difficult to play, but unique and overall, a pretty enjoyable experience. I really hope it comes to be withen three years or less, and I do think it would attract a lot of popularity. For one, dispite a few copies, many of the tanks are very original, and again, unique. My only fear is that WG tends to focus on countries with larger populations (china etc.) because those players are more likely to play their own country. Israel, by comparisson, has a population smaller than new jersey. Nether the less, chechslovakia doesnt have a huge playerbase and I dont suppose sweden does either. I really do hope WG notices that about 90 percent of the people on this forum appreciate your tree and add it to the game. I cant wait to play it. ;)


Edited by Marl3y00, Sep 29 2015 - 06:33.


Life_In_Black #255 Posted Sep 29 2015 - 11:15

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View PostMarl3y00, on Sep 29 2015 - 00:25, said:

I read the whole forum and I really like this tree. You even got the support of a pro player! The merkava seems difficult to play, but unique and overall, a pretty enjoyable experience. I really hope it comes to be withen three years or less, and I do think it would attract a lot of popularity. For one, dispite a few copies, many of the tanks are very original, and again, unique. My only fear is that WG tends to focus on countries with larger populations (china etc.) because those players are more likely to play their own country. Israel, by comparisson, has a population smaller than new jersey. Nether the less, chechslovakia doesnt have a huge playerbase and I dont suppose sweden does either. I really do hope WG notices that about 90 percent of the people on this forum appreciate your tree and add it to the game. I cant wait to play it. ;)

 

Czechoslovakian has either the second or third largest playerbase in Europe (not counting Russia, who are obviously the largest playerbase) behind Germany and/or Poland. So that's why Czechoslovakia is getting their own tech tree. Sweden doesn't have a large playerbase, so they're getting a techctree because of the fact they can make multiple full branches and have the Iconic S-tank. Israel probably has an even smaller player base than Sweden, but they do have iconic vehicles that are uniquely modified and have seen combat, so I think there's a good chance of Israel getting their own tech tree at some point, although probably not until 2017 at this point given that next year is supposedly the Swedish tech tree and the second French heavy line.

ToNa3rd #256 Posted Sep 29 2015 - 17:47

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in fact, wg said to make one tank developer took a time :|:trollface:

_Captain_Haddock_ #257 Posted Sep 30 2015 - 06:41

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When I saw this, I almost shat bricks (in a good way :D). I didnt think it would happen, but hey, check out the bottom of the interview. The last question. Anyways, This is really amazing, and I wouldnt be suprised if it was because of your research.

Anyways, best of luck, and I cannot discribe my excitement right now.

 

http://forum.worldof...-qa-with-storm/

 



Life_In_Black #258 Posted Sep 30 2015 - 14:28

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View PostMarl3y00, on Sep 30 2015 - 01:41, said:

When I saw this, I almost shat bricks (in a good way :D). I didnt think it would happen, but hey, check out the bottom of the interview. The last question. Anyways, This is really amazing, and I wouldnt be suprised if it was because of your research.

Anyways, best of luck, and I cannot discribe my excitement right now.

 

http://forum.worldof...-qa-with-storm/

 

 

Thank you for the support! I've known for quite some time now that Wargaming has been considering an Israeli tree, but it's always nice to see them still considering it.

JAGDPANTHER_1945 #259 Posted Oct 01 2015 - 01:45

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this wouldn't be like the Chinese branch very much at all.  Most of these tanks where used in combat and from this tree^ has some very serious contenders and modifications to existing tanks in game.  This tree would make you learn tactics for each tank instead of each branch.  Each tank would have a different playstyle players would have to adapt too. Plus china tree is basically a "Russian Sandbox" While from what I seen Israeli has a mix of other nation tanks and modifications

rivit #260 Posted Oct 01 2015 - 15:42

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View PostKaiserMartens, on Sep 28 2015 - 11:18, said:

Honestly guys, the chinese tree experience was bad enough as is with all those copies. Wouldn't it honestly be better to include the few actual Israeli tanks as American tree premiums?

 

 ^I agree with this. The Merkava prototype and the SUPER SHERMAN as premiums and then call it a day. I see no reason to make players grind endless tiers of rehashed tanks.





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