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An Israeli Tech Tree in World of Tanks

Israeli Israel Merkava Magach Tiran Sherman Centurion

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WulfeHound #281 Posted Oct 01 2015 - 21:01

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View PostJAGDPANTHER_1945, on Oct 01 2015 - 14:37, said:

 

don't use that as an insult.  Both trees have the same amount of rights to be implemented into the game.  Israeli is no organic tree but current Italy tree isn't necessarily a fresh carrot either.

 

 

 


 

Now back to subject, is it possible that for Israeli tree to have enough tanks to create a full either TD or Arty branch?

 

Considering nearly a third of the vehicles in the Italian tree cannot be added since they're half-tracks/wheeled vehicles, yes it is completely appropriate to use what I said. There's two full lines at best, that can be added.

_Captain_Haddock_ #282 Posted Oct 07 2015 - 03:28

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In all honesty, I would put italians as a branch in the european tree. It doesnt make much sense to put it as its own tree. Kinda like the japanese heaves (which i dont like). Japanese heavies have a HUGE jump from tier 4 to 5, and i dont like it. From what i read on volks thread, same with italians. True, the israeli tree has the three shermans, but it really isnt a huge change in playstyle.

 

Also, that guys suggestion to put the merkava as an american premium makes absouloutly no sense whatsoever. Its like putting the leopard 1 as a French premium just because they happened to be good allies at the time. I dont actually believe France ever used the leopard, and i know for a fact that the merkava was never in american service.

 

Again, I really do like your tree. It is very well researched, and i feel that the vast majoraty of players, regardless of their opinion on an italian tree, do support an israeli tech tree. Good luck ;)


Edited by Marl3y00, Oct 07 2015 - 03:30.


Life_In_Black #283 Posted Oct 07 2015 - 04:05

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View PostMarl3y00, on Oct 06 2015 - 22:28, said:

In all honesty, I would put italians as a branch in the european tree. It doesnt make much sense to put it as its own tree. Kinda like the japanese heaves (which i dont like). Japanese heavies have a HUGE jump from tier 4 to 5, and i dont like it. From what i read on volks thread, same with italians. True, the israeli tree has the three shermans, but it really isnt a huge change in playstyle.

 

Also, that guys suggestion to put the merkava as an american premium makes absouloutly no sense whatsoever. Its like putting the leopard 1 as a French premium just because they happened to be good allies at the time. I dont actually believe France ever used the leopard, and i know for a fact that the merkava was never in american service.

 

Again, I really do like your tree. It is very well researched, and i feel that the vast majoraty of players, regardless of their opinion on an italian tree, do support an israeli tech tree. Good luck ;)

 

Thing is, I don't mind Italy getting their own tech tree. I just hate the double standard and extremely faulty logic most people use when it comes to Israel, yet feel these same issues are perfectly acceptable for Italy. Some people have a very hard time accepting that nations like Israel and Yugoslavia, can make a tech tree far easier than Italy can,.

CK16 #284 Posted Oct 21 2015 - 23:53

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Did Israel replace the cupolas of thier M60's and M60A1's as well? I know for the M48 they did.

Life_In_Black #285 Posted Oct 22 2015 - 00:01

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View PostCK16, on Oct 21 2015 - 18:53, said:

Did Israel replace the cupolas of thier M60's and M60A1's as well? I know for the M48 they did.

 

Eventually, yes. Much like the M48s retained the original cupola during the Six Days War of 1967, most, if not all of the M60s/M60A1s acquired before/during the 1973 Yom Kippur War retained the original cupola too. It's possible some M60s/M60A1s had their cupolas replaced with the Urdan cupola before the Yom Kippur War, much like a handful of M48s had been given the 105mm L7 before the Six Days War, but it would have been a very small handful of them only.

sp15 #286 Posted Oct 27 2015 - 17:28

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"- The M50 and M51 Israeli designations are fake: the Super Sherman is M4A1E8 and the M50 + M51 are made up by some non-Israeli historian"

is this right?



CK16 #287 Posted Oct 28 2015 - 06:06

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If I recall right, the person who answers this latest Q&A doesn't know sh...quat about Israeli tanks and is quite in the wrong! 

WulfeHound #288 Posted Oct 28 2015 - 06:19

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View Postsp15, on Oct 27 2015 - 11:28, said:

"- The M50 and M51 Israeli designations are fake: the Super Sherman is M4A1E8 and the M50 + M51 are made up by some non-Israeli historian"

is this right?

 

Nope. Completely incorrect. 

Life_In_Black #289 Posted Oct 28 2015 - 10:25

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View Postsp15, on Oct 27 2015 - 12:28, said:

"- The M50 and M51 Israeli designations are fake: the Super Sherman is M4A1E8 and the M50 + M51 are made up by some non-Israeli historian"

is this right?

 

No, not in the slightest. The name "Super Sherman" is a fabrication from a historian or modeling company. The names M-50 and M-51 are completely historical, and were in use by 1968 already, as evidenced by this official IDF Armored Corps memory book on armor in the Six Days War:

 

This is about as pure of a source as you can get given it pre-dates all of the books and supposed "sources" that use names like "Super Sherman" and "Isherman", thus it doesn't fall into the trap of repeating the same tired and incorrect information like so many other books do.



Life_In_Black #290 Posted Oct 28 2015 - 17:14

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This is from The Armored Patrol, so take it with a grain of salt:

 

Block Quote

In Israel they would of laughed at the M50 and M51 being called Super Sherman. Super Sherman – is the M4A1E8. Calling the M50 and M51 Super Sherman was made up by some over seas historian.

 

This is a vastly different translation than what ended up on Status Report. I'm curious how such wildly different translations could occur?



Life_In_Black #291 Posted Nov 01 2015 - 02:15

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Figured I'd post this here:

 

This is a South Lebanon Army M-50, with probably the coolest camouflage scheme I've ever seen on an armored vehicle. Given Israel currently lacks a proper winter camouflage scheme other than the standard whitewash that every nation gets, I'm going to suggest this become a winter scheme for Israel. The SLA was allied with Israel, which is where they got both their M-50s and Tirans, so this isn't far fetched at all. Plus it fits winter quite well I think.

 

Also, I've been thinking about scrapping the TD line as such, and using the M-72s instead to shore up the artillery line instead. This would allow for an Arab TD line to be included, should Wargaming be so inclined.



yUPPatriots #292 Posted Nov 09 2015 - 12:34

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I just saw this post from a link in another thread. 

 

Great work op, comprehensive, analytical and nice photos also. 

 

Thank you.



Life_In_Black #293 Posted Nov 09 2015 - 13:30

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Thank you! I hope to have another revised tech tree up sometime this week. I plan on scrapping the TD line and using the M-72 to flesh out the artillery line as the M107 and M110 are problematic given their top speeds.

Golgrin #294 Posted Nov 11 2015 - 23:45

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Why not have the Magach 6 as the tier X instead of Magach 3? You'd have better hull protection and the better sloping on the turret cheeks.

Life_In_Black #295 Posted Nov 12 2015 - 00:07

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View PostGolgrin, on Nov 11 2015 - 18:45, said:

Why not have the Magach 6 as the tier X instead of Magach 3? You'd have better hull protection and the better sloping on the turret cheeks.

 

The US tech tree deserves an M60A1 more than the Israeli tech tree needs it. Plus, the fact that Israel planned at one point on arming their Magach 3s with British 110mm rifled cannons as an alternative to the Merkava project, means that the Magach 3 could be a very competitive tier 10.

Life_In_Black #296 Posted Nov 12 2015 - 16:06

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Got some very interesting information including another SPG for Israel.

 

First, in 1942 the Finnish developed their own anti-tank gun, the 57/76 Pst, which was a 76mm shell necked down to 57mm and a 24kg projectile with a muzzle velocity of 1000m/s. In 1943 this cannon was modified to 75mm after Finnish experience with the 75 K/40 (7.5cm PaK 40), but it suffered from many problems related to its weight and difficulty towing. Weapon production stopped after the Continuation War ended in 1944, but Tampella kept working on it and in 1946, the cannon was modified and its problems corrected, upon which it was sent to Soltam Ltd. in Haifa, Israel for testing in 1954, and was never seen again.

 

Second, the Finnish 120 Krh/62A-H mortar formed the basis for Israel's Soltam K6, which the US later adopted as the 120mm M120/121. Tampella never received any royalties for this. Also, apparently there was some cooperation between the Israelis and Tampella with Ghana of all places, as in 1962 a 160 Krh/58C mortar was test fired in Ghana. I believe this is the same mortar that the Israelis would adopt as the M-66.

 

Third, the Soltam 155mm M-68 is a copy of the Finnish 155KAN68, which in turn was based on the Finnish 122K/60 cannon. (more on that in a bit)

 

Fourth, Tampella's subsidiary, Salgad S.A. of Luxembourg formed a new company with Solel Bonef Ltd. of Haifa, in the Spring of 1950, with the final contract creating Soltam Ltd. (Solel Tampella) being signed on June 23rd, 1950. Tampella's ties with Soltam were apparently cut in 1974.

 

Fifth, the 122K60 had started development back in the 1950s after it was realized the Soviet 122mm and 152mm cannons wouldn't meet the Finnish Army's needs. Drawings were complete for this new cannon in 1955, with the first prototype being fired in 1956. It would go through several iterations before culminating in the 122K60. Here's where it gets interesting though. In 1966, a 122K60 prototype was shipped to Israel for testing, where it was mounted onto an M4A3E8 chassis for firing tests. It underwent testing in Israel from 1966 until 1970 before being returned to Tampella, and the gun was scrapped in the '90s after the Finnish Artillery Museum refused to accept it. (Picture to come later)

 

And lastly, Tampella was involved both with mounting the 155mm M-68 cannons onto the Sherman chassis (the L-33 Ro'em), but was also involved with the turreted version mounted on the Centurion, what we know as the Soltam M-72. Tampella's experience with the M-72 would lead them to develop a turreted 130mm for coastal artillery. This explains the name being M-72, and helps put a much more acceptable date on the SPG for Wargaming to accept.

 

All of this comes from the book, Tampellasta Patriaan: 70 vuotta suomalaista raskata aseenvalmistusta.



Life_In_Black #297 Posted Nov 12 2015 - 16:33

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And here's that picture:



AnAlbumCover #298 Posted Nov 12 2015 - 18:13

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this is amazing, thankyou for your time and the info provided. id love to see these implemented into the game

 



Golgrin #299 Posted Nov 12 2015 - 21:05

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Nov 11 2015 - 17:07, said:

 

The US tech tree deserves an M60A1 more than the Israeli tech tree needs it. Plus, the fact that Israel planned at one point on arming their Magach 3s with British 110mm rifled cannons as an alternative to the Merkava project, means that the Magach 3 could be a very competitive tier 10.

 

The M48 hull front is a lot easier to pen than the M60, and the cheeks of the M48's turret are much, much easier to pen then the M60A1's. That's why the M60A1 exists as it was an attempt to supersede the  vulnerabilities of the M48 design, hull first then turret.

 

The Magach 6 would be more technologically on par with the better tier X medium's in the game.

 

The M48A1 in the game already, should be a tier 9. It's not on par with the tier X mediums that the other nations get.


Edited by Golgrin, Nov 13 2015 - 02:01.


Life_In_Black #300 Posted Nov 13 2015 - 03:38

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View PostGolgrin, on Nov 12 2015 - 16:05, said:

 

The M48 hull front is a lot easier to pen than the M60, and the cheeks of the M48's turret are much, much easier to pen then the M60A1's. That's why the M60A1 exists as it was an attempt to supersede the  vulnerabilities of the M48 design, hull first then turret.

 

The Magach 6 would be more technologically on par with the better tier X medium's in the game.

 

The M48A1 in the game already, should be a tier 9. It's not on par with the tier X mediums that the other nations get.

 

I'm aware it's not up to par. But like I said, the Magach 3 with the 110mm would be better than the current M48A1. And I don't think it's fair for Israel to get the M60A1 before the US, which quite frankly, deserves the M60A1.





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