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An Israeli Tech Tree in World of Tanks

Israeli Israel Merkava Magach Tiran Sherman Centurion

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SoukouDragon #41 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 11:08

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STB-1 is also an MBT.

Life_In_Black #42 Posted Mar 10 2015 - 15:06

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View PostNutrientibusMeaGallus, on Mar 10 2015 - 02:17, said:

  Very well thought out. I think the problems with an Israeli tech tree is a lot of these tanks are already in other trees (granted not with the modifications a lot of these have), and the early merkava still runs (i think) a smooth bore, which wg said is a no no. Personally, I'd like to see an Israeli tree. I don't think it will happen because a lot of the tanks would be repeats of other trees, even with the differences, dunno if they'd see it as enough differences to justify it...

 

  And the Priest with a corrugated roof.... In the desert.... I wonder how much they hated that tank? It's like a microwave designed to cook tankers... If I was commander of that and one of my guys welded that on... I know who'd be walking home from maneuvers... The original canvas tops for them would breathe better, and be able to be removed and put back on more easily... I'm kind of willing to bet that was something done by locals to use the thing as a shed or something where it was sitting..

 

Actually, the Merkava didn't get a smoothbore until the Mk. 3 version with its 120mm. The Mk. 1 and 2 both still used the 105mm L7. As for the M7 Priest with the roof, I don't think that was anything other than a local conversion, which was very common in the early days due to the fact a lot of the equipment was picked up as basically scrap.

Trophy_Wench #43 Posted Mar 12 2015 - 04:18

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Not trying to derail the thread or anything Life, but having done some theorycrafting of hypothetical Israeli and Arab TT's in the past I'm curious, what would you have earmarked as an "Arab" tier 10? For the life of me, I couldn't think of or find anything from the era that would make sense in WoT contexts.

Life_In_Black #44 Posted Mar 12 2015 - 04:49

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Finding an Israeli Insignia for World of Tanks

 

Finding a symbol/emblem/insignia to use for Israeli armored vehicles hasn't been easy. Unlike most nations, Israel doesn't seem to have any emblems or such on their armored vehicles, at least not in the sense of some of the other nations currently in-game. The barrel rings and chevrons are used (to my knowledge) to determine the battalion and company of the tank in question, thus the chevron will change direction depending on the company. This presents us with an issue that isn't easily solved, as while a chevron could be used, it would have to be a static direction. So I went looking for another symbol that could be used in World of Tanks to identify Israeli tanks. One thing I kept coming across was the Magen David, or Star of David, a symbol used heavily on all Israeli aircraft. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any use of this on ground vehicles with the soul exception of IDF ambulances, which use a similar, red Star of David. At least, I couldn't find any use on ground vehicles until very recently:

 

The first picture is from 1948 and shows the 7th Armored Brigade (the other symbol is the 7th Armored Brigade's insignia), while the second is an unknown unit from around 1950, both of which are using Jeeps, and the third shows a Humber armored car (complete with MG-34), I believe sometime in the early 1960s. More importantly, these pictures show the Magen David in use on ground vehicles which gives us the justification we need for using the symbol in World of Tanks. Of course Wargaming is free to use the chevron anyway since it is more iconic on ground vehicles, but this shows that there is a more historical option available. In any event, this gives us a national insignia for tanks, as well as the aforementioned barrel rings for Marks of Excellence, so all that's missing now are inscriptions and camouflage options, which will come later.

 

EDIT: Since there isn't a whole lot of information out there on potential inscriptions, I figured I would add what is known about inscriptions to this post. Anyway, as far as I can tell, several early Shermans in 1948 or so were given names such as Meir, Tamar, Rut II, and Ada. There's also this picture I posted on page 1 which says, "Negba, death to the invader", so that's another inscription that can be used. So while there aren't a lot of options right now, there are enough to start with.



Life_In_Black #45 Posted Mar 12 2015 - 04:58

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View PostTrophy_Wench, on Mar 11 2015 - 23:18, said:

Not trying to derail the thread or anything Life, but having done some theorycrafting of hypothetical Israeli and Arab TT's in the past I'm curious, what would you have earmarked as an "Arab" tier 10? For the life of me, I couldn't think of or find anything from the era that would make sense in WoT contexts.

 

 

It's a 130mm M-46/Type 59 mounted on a T-55/Type 59 chassis. Tier 9 would be this:

 

Which is a 122mm D-30 mounted on a T-55 chassis. Tier 8 would probably be the Egyptian T-34/100, like I have it here for Israel.



Harkonen_siegetank #46 Posted Mar 12 2015 - 10:10

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I rather see a euro or czech tech tree first. TBH IMI tech tree are all copy of other nation tanks (before you say chinese, more than half of the tanks are locally produced), it's just people want to see the merkava.

 

The merkava mk1 enters service in 1979, that is too far out in the timeline. 



Life_In_Black #47 Posted Mar 12 2015 - 10:32

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View PostHarkonen_siegetank, on Mar 12 2015 - 05:10, said:

I rather see a euro or czech tech tree first. TBH IMI tech tree are all copy of other nation tanks (before you say chinese, more than half of the tanks are locally produced), it's just people want to see the merkava.

 

The merkava mk1 enters service in 1979, that is too far out in the timeline. 

 

According to the Congressional Research Service: U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel by Jeremy M. Sharp, first Merkava prototype was completed in 1975, which is the same year the Type 64 was built, which is already in-game. So it's not too new for the game, and technology wise, it fits well into the World of Tanks, being sort of like a combination between the upcoming Chieftain, and the fictional FV215b (120). As to the Chinese tree, I see no difference between a captured/bought tank and a licensed produced one in terms of which one gets to be in-game and which one doesn't, especially when these Israeli versions are different from the originals in some way. Besides, where did I say this would happen instead of a Czech tree? The Czech tree is still rumored to come either late this year or possibly early next year, with the Swedish following after that. This would come after that if Wargaming's interested.

Harkonen_siegetank #48 Posted Mar 12 2015 - 12:50

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Mar 12 2015 - 09:32, said:

 

According to the Congressional Research Service: U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel by Jeremy M. Sharp, first Merkava prototype was completed in 1975, which is the same year the Type 64 was built, which is already in-game. So it's not too new for the game, and technology wise, it fits well into the World of Tanks, being sort of like a combination between the upcoming Chieftain, and the fictional FV215b (120). As to the Chinese tree, I see no difference between a captured/bought tank and a licensed produced one in terms of which one gets to be in-game and which one doesn't, especially when these Israeli versions are different from the originals in some way. Besides, where did I say this would happen instead of a Czech tree? The Czech tree is still rumored to come either late this year or possibly early next year, with the Swedish following after that. This would come after that if Wargaming's interested.

I said "I rather see czech or euro TT first" not "you said IDF TT comes first".

 

But you mentioned Merkava MK1 not prototype, which means 1979.



Life_In_Black #49 Posted Mar 12 2015 - 13:02

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View PostHarkonen_siegetank, on Mar 12 2015 - 07:50, said:

I said "I rather see czech or euro TT first" not "you said IDF TT comes first".

 

But you mentioned Merkava MK1 not prototype, which means 1979.

 

Dates are arbitrary here as it's technology that matters. And there's nothing revolutionary or state-of-the-art about the Merkava Mk. 1 which puts it off-limits for inclusion in WoT. I direct you to the very first post, where it was mentioned that Wargaming might not include it because they didn't have a branch for it, not because of its age or technology.

Marcus_Mucus #50 Posted Mar 12 2015 - 17:26

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Wow, a lot of research!!  Well done!  I would love to see it happen and the Arab tree would be cool as well

joleob7 #51 Posted Mar 12 2015 - 22:41

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Dude totally get them to do that it would be awesome!!

 



Trophy_Wench #52 Posted Mar 14 2015 - 00:28

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Those look like high tier TD candidates to me, still cool though. Anyway, back to Israel. Do you think that the M-51 could really be competitve at tier 8? Every time I've looked at it, I felt that it's good tier 7 material but any higher and it just would not be able to stand up to high tier gameplay. Yes, the 105mm helps but without any sort of AP shell, its asking a lot from such an old, slow, tall and not very well armored tank.

Edited by Trophy_Wench, Mar 14 2015 - 00:31.


Life_In_Black #53 Posted Mar 14 2015 - 01:48

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View PostTrophy_Wench, on Mar 13 2015 - 19:28, said:

Those look like high tier TD candidates to me, still cool though. Anyway, back to Israel. Do you think that the M-51 could really be competitve at tier 8? Every time I've looked at it, I felt that it's good tier 7 material but any higher and it just would not be able to stand up to high tier gameplay. Yes, the 105mm helps but without any sort of AP shell, its asking a lot from such an old, slow, tall and not very well armored tank.

 

Yeah, I think it could work. Wargaming could always give it a fake AP shell with +200mm of penetration, like they did on the Bat.-Chat. 25t, IIRC. In any event, it would definitely play more like a TD than a medium though given the chassis being at such a high tier.

Strv74 #54 Posted Mar 14 2015 - 03:58

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Mar 14 2015 - 01:48, said:

 

Yeah, I think it could work. Wargaming could always give it a fake AP shell with +200mm of penetration, like they did on the Bat.-Chat. 25t, IIRC. In any event, it would definitely play more like a TD than a medium though given the chassis being at such a high tier.

 

The interesting news is that although no one knows the gun depression, Repotenciados appear to have -8. 

Life_In_Black #55 Posted Mar 14 2015 - 04:01

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View PostStrv74, on Mar 13 2015 - 22:58, said:

 

The interesting news is that although no one knows the gun depression, Repotenciados appear to have -8. 

 

Interesting. 8 degrees of gun depression would definitely make it a viable tier 8 with that cannon.

IndygoEEI #56 Posted Mar 14 2015 - 10:20

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OP, I actually started work on the Israeli Tech Tree over a year and a half ago...   The thread is here...

 

http://forum.worldof..._st__60#topmost

 

And here is the pic that came with it since it's deleted....

 

 

Admittedly I did take some creative liberties.  Such is the case with Locust Little John adapter.  The real Locust that

Isreal had captured was not equipped with this adapter.  But I also included something special for the Arab Tier 10

and that is the T55 Enigma.  Go ahead and read about it in the thread...

 

As for my thread, it did get noticed and got sent up the chain of command.  Also, I didn't add the Merkerva because

I wasn't sure about it's gun.  Now that we know Mk 1/2 had a 105 rifled cannon, I think it's good idea to try again.



Life_In_Black #57 Posted Mar 14 2015 - 11:07

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View PostIndygoEEI, on Mar 14 2015 - 05:20, said:

OP, I actually started work on the Israeli Tech Tree over a year and a half ago...   The thread is here...

 

 

And here is the pic that came with it since it's deleted....

 

 

Admittedly I did take some creative liberties.  Such is the case with Locust Little John adapter.  The real Locust that

Isreal had captured was not equipped with this adapter.  But I also included something special for the Arab Tier 10

and that is the T55 Enigma.  Go ahead and read about it in the thread...

 

As for my thread, it did get noticed and got sent up the chain of command.  Also, I didn't add the Merkerva because

I wasn't sure about it's gun.  Now that we know Mk 1/2 had a 105 rifled cannon, I think it's good idea to try again.

 

No offense, but I've got quite a few issues with that tree.

 

Universal Carrier/Bren carrier is too weak to be a tier 1, and wouldn't have a turret. Thus it would have to be a TD.

Renault R35 at tier 2 and yet the Hotchkiss H39 at tier 3, even though the R35 had a working 2pdr and the H39 had a dummy gun fixed right to the turret.

Vickers Light Mk. VIB as a tier 2 TD even though the heaviest thing you might be able to get away with is a 15mm Besa.

M.13/40 as a tier 3 TD despite only being armed with what appears to be a 37mm M6 or possibly a 2pdr.

M4 Sherman 105mm as a tier 4 TD, which would be thoroughly broken and totally overpowered. It also wouldn't be any different to an M4 or Sherman III at tier 5 with the 105mm.

Loyd Carrier Bofors, something I've never seen any proof of

Achilles wasn't modified by Israel, as they abandoned the TD concept quite quickly.

AMX-13 75, 90, and 105 at tiers 8, 9, and 10 TDs, which completely screws over the AMX 13 75 and 90 as tier 7 and 8 French light tanks as TDs get normal matchmaker.

Egyptian T-100 is on a T-34/85 chassis and uses a [edited]-3, which is roughly equivalent to the 100mm D-10, and thus is totally unsuited for being a tier 10 TD.

BTR-50 is way too weak for a tier 5 light tank considering it had no real WoT suitable armament. The Iraqi Cascavel turreted one uses a smoothbore, thus it's excluded.

M113s use aluminum armor and thus are excluded from the game.

PT-76 is amphibious and has already been rejected by Wargaming for that reason.

Makmat 160 uses a mortar, and there are no mortars in the game.

Tiran 4 is either as good or better than the Type 59 currently, and thus unsuited for tier 8.

Ti-67 is a made up designation for Tirans in Israeli service, and is thus no different from the Tiran 5 you have at tier 9.

Iraqi T-55 S60 is only armed with a 57mm AA cannon, not sure how that's tier 9 medium material

T-55 Enigma has rubber as part of its armor, and such composite materials are excluded from WoT

Magach 1 is a relatively unmodified M48 Patton, while the US only gets the M26 at that tier.

Magach 5 is an M48A5, and not even the US get the M48A5 as their tier 10.

Ben Gurion is another name for the Sho't, and would be no different from the current tier 8 Centurion.

Sho't refers to a Centurion with the L7 105mm but the original engine, and thus is equivalent to a stock Centurion 7/1

Sho't Kal has a worse engine than the Centurion 7/1 while using the same cannon, and is thus unsuited for tier 10.

M-51 uses a 105mm cannon roughly equivalent to the cannon on the Bat.-Chat. 25t, and is thus overpowered for tier 7.

The Iraqi T-55s and Centurions are listed as heavies.

 

Also, while I understand and appreciate you started work on a potential Israeli tech tree, that doesn't mean you're the only one who's allowed to create a potential tech tree. If this isn't how you intended to come across, then I apologize. As for passing this along to Wargaming, I have already done so, what they do with it is up to them.



Strv74 #58 Posted Mar 14 2015 - 16:29

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Mar 14 2015 - 11:07, said:

 

No offense, but I've got quite a few issues with that tree.

Achilles wasn't modified by Israel, as they abandoned the TD concept quite quickly.

Makmat 160 uses a mortar, and there are no mortars in the game.

 

 

Sorry for being a nitpicker, but you were fully right except for these two things.

 

75mm CN-50s like on the M50 Super Sherman were tried on the M10. 

 

SU-5 uses a 152mm mortar. 

 

View PostLife_In_Black, on Mar 14 2015 - 04:01, said:

 

Interesting. 8 degrees of gun depression would definitely make it a viable tier 8 with that cannon.

 

Agreed. Would you then put the Chilean-used 60mm as the top gun, or leave that to a SA line? 

Life_In_Black #59 Posted Mar 14 2015 - 22:17

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View PostStrv74, on Mar 14 2015 - 11:29, said:

 

Sorry for being a nitpicker, but you were fully right except for these two things.

 

75mm CN-50s like on the M50 Super Sherman were tried on the M10. 

 

SU-5 uses a 152mm mortar. 

 

 

Agreed. Would you then put the Chilean-used 60mm as the top gun, or leave that to a SA line? 

 

While the 75mm CN-50 75 was trialled on an M10 for Israel, that never left France, and thus could be a French or Israeli premium TD Like I've said before, the Israeli TD line is the shakiest due to needing two captured vehicles, one that only has a single picture of its existence, and an artillery piece. Besides, I've seen the person's thread, and this is what he's referring to as a modified Achilles:

 

Which is actually the rear of an M10, not any sort of modification. Here's the front of that exact same vehicle sitting at Batey Ha-Osef museum in Tel Aviv:

 

So I would rather keep the Achilles as a premium for Israel in case the TD line is accepted by Wargaming, or used as a premium for France in case the Israeli TD line gets scrapped. As for the mortar, I'm fairly certain it was called a mortar due to its barrel being extremely short, and that it was actually rifled. As to the 60mm, much like that aforementioned M10 with 75mm CN-50 75, Israel themselves never used it, so I'm ok with it being used in a potential South American tech tree instead. The M-50 and M-51 should be fine without it, and it helps keep things unique between trees.



IndygoEEI #60 Posted Mar 14 2015 - 23:26

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Mar 14 2015 - 02:07, said:

 

No offense, but I've got quite a few issues with that tree.

 

Universal Carrier/Bren carrier is too weak to be a tier 1, and wouldn't have a turret. Thus it would have to be a TD.

Renault R35 at tier 2 and yet the Hotchkiss H39 at tier 3, even though the R35 had a working 2pdr and the H39 had a dummy gun fixed right to the turret.

Vickers Light Mk. VIB as a tier 2 TD even though the heaviest thing you might be able to get away with is a 15mm Besa.

M.13/40 as a tier 3 TD despite only being armed with what appears to be a 37mm M6 or possibly a 2pdr.

M4 Sherman 105mm as a tier 4 TD, which would be thoroughly broken and totally overpowered. It also wouldn't be any different to an M4 or Sherman III at tier 5 with the 105mm.

Loyd Carrier Bofors, something I've never seen any proof of

Achilles wasn't modified by Israel, as they abandoned the TD concept quite quickly.

AMX-13 75, 90, and 105 at tiers 8, 9, and 10 TDs, which completely screws over the AMX 13 75 and 90 as tier 7 and 8 French light tanks as TDs get normal matchmaker.

Egyptian T-100 is on a T-34/85 chassis and uses a [edited]-3, which is roughly equivalent to the 100mm D-10, and thus is totally unsuited for being a tier 10 TD.

BTR-50 is way too weak for a tier 5 light tank considering it had no real WoT suitable armament. The Iraqi Cascavel turreted one uses a smoothbore, thus it's excluded.

M113s use aluminum armor and thus are excluded from the game.

PT-76 is amphibious and has already been rejected by Wargaming for that reason.

Makmat 160 uses a mortar, and there are no mortars in the game.

Tiran 4 is either as good or better than the Type 59 currently, and thus unsuited for tier 8.

Ti-67 is a made up designation for Tirans in Israeli service, and is thus no different from the Tiran 5 you have at tier 9.

Iraqi T-55 S60 is only armed with a 57mm AA cannon, not sure how that's tier 9 medium material

T-55 Enigma has rubber as part of its armor, and such composite materials are excluded from WoT

Magach 1 is a relatively unmodified M48 Patton, while the US only gets the M26 at that tier.

Magach 5 is an M48A5, and not even the US get the M48A5 as their tier 10.

Ben Gurion is another name for the Sho't, and would be no different from the current tier 8 Centurion.

Sho't refers to a Centurion with the L7 105mm but the original engine, and thus is equivalent to a stock Centurion 7/1

Sho't Kal has a worse engine than the Centurion 7/1 while using the same cannon, and is thus unsuited for tier 10.

M-51 uses a 105mm cannon roughly equivalent to the cannon on the Bat.-Chat. 25t, and is thus overpowered for tier 7.

The Iraqi T-55s and Centurions are listed as heavies.

 

Also, while I understand and appreciate you started work on a potential Israeli tech tree, that doesn't mean you're the only one who's allowed to create a potential tech tree. If this isn't how you intended to come across, then I apologize. As for passing this along to Wargaming, I have already done so, what they do with it is up to them.

 

You took this too much as an affront, but I can live that.

 

The Iraqi T55 Enigma only used steel plates.  No composite Armor was used.

 

http://gurth.home.xs...pdfs/enigma.pdf

 

As for the 113s, the M56 Scorpion which will be added to the game has no armor and is only

aluminum platting. 

 

As for the Loyld Bofors, it turns out I was wrong and it didn't exist as I thought it did.  The Bofors

was carried on a trailer, something I didn't realize until later research.

 

All in all, you have a better tree.







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