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Projekt101 #8141 Posted Aug 11 2017 - 16:39

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View PostDunfalach, on Aug 11 2017 - 03:08, said:

I would guess that I carry at least 4 rounds of premium ammo on every tank that has that capability, with the exception of autoloaders where I carry 1-2 clips depending on overall capacity. However, certain tanks require a higher APCR loadout. IS-6 being the worst offender, I carry 2/3 APCR, make it my default round, and only switch to AP if I know there's nothing but 6s and 7s ahead of me. As a rule, when I carry a lot of APCR, it's based not just on the gun's pen but on whether the tank normally fights enemies frontally. IS-6 and T-34-3 have the same weak AP rounds, but T-34-3 gets to fire at sides much more often so I carry much less premium in it (also its premium round is HEAT so less reliable against the amount of spaced armor in its tier).

 

I probably carry on average less premium in the French than any other nation in general, because they:

a) are frequently autoloader in higher tiers

b) tend to have absurdly high pen for their tier that can actually go through tanks 1-2 tiers above them reliably

 

The IS-6 is really the only tank I have that I would say RELIES on premium ammo, but there are others I don't have. T69 tends to rely on it heavily, as does the T-54, because both have weirdly weak AP rounds and weirdly strong premium rounds. Usually I try to keep it to no more than 5-10 rounds unless a tank is just absurdly dependent on it due to fighting frontally against enemies it can't pen with its AP round as a standard role. Tanks with really low damage per shot and high ammo capacity might carry numerically more premium rounds to serve the same general effectiveness, but usually a lower proportion of their overall ammo capacity.

 

Thanks for the input, Dunfalach. Let me pester you with a few more questions.

 

For a tank you have just unlocked, do you bother buying any premium rounds before you have the top gun researched or just suffer through it?

 

Do you follow the same thought process with derp guns that don't fire AP/APCR or would you ignore premium ammo in those tanks?

 

What about HE in addition to AP & APCR? I've read some arguments in the past couple of months about the old policy of always carrying a few HE for cap resets not being valid any longer but the theorycrafting is over my head.



Dunfalach #8142 Posted Aug 12 2017 - 01:01

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View PostProjekt101, on Aug 11 2017 - 10:39, said:

 

Thanks for the input, Dunfalach. Let me pester you with a few more questions.

 

For a tank you have just unlocked, do you bother buying any premium rounds before you have the top gun researched or just suffer through it?

 

Do you follow the same thought process with derp guns that don't fire AP/APCR or would you ignore premium ammo in those tanks?

 

What about HE in addition to AP & APCR? I've read some arguments in the past couple of months about the old policy of always carrying a few HE for cap resets not being valid any longer but the theorycrafting is over my head.

 

I do still carry premium rounds on guns before the top gun, most of the time. Not as many perhaps, if I expect to get out of that gun pretty soon. Of course, it does waste some credits that way, but on the other hand many of the stock guns are actually top guns for previous tanks, so if you're keeping the lower tank than the rounds are shared anyway. And if you truly will never use the gun again, you can recoup half your credits by selling the ammo later from your depot. Don't sell it unless you're sure you'll never use it though!

 

Derp guns, it depends.

  • For the mid-tier 105s, I tend to carry about half and half HE and HEAT if it has a HEAT round, because a lot of your real damage potential will be relying on the ability of HEAT to go through enemies that have the hit points to need your full damage potential. The 105s really don't do very much damage if they don't pen, and their reliable pen is mostly the thinly armored lower tiers so there's a lot of situations where HEAT is good to have for punching higher tiers with enough damage to worry them.
  • For the 152s, on the other hand, their raw explosive power at that caliber can do damage even exploding outside the armor, and they have a bit more reliable base pen on the standard HE round, so I carry mostly straight HE. I do carry a handful of AP rounds on the Soviet 152s because they actually have enough pen to go through the side of some higher tier tanks and enough raw damage that exploding inside the tank can seriously hurt them. But I very rarely actually use them, because there's only occasional times where you know you're going to be in a good situation for them 20+ seconds ahead of time to be worth switching ammo from HE.

 

I still carry about 5 rounds of HE in most of my tanks, just in case, unless the tank has too low an ammo pool to allow it. Exception is autoloaders, since they usually have only a few clips so I'm not going to waste one on HE usually. I very rarely actually fire one in the standard tank guns, but I carry 3-5 rounds just in case unless there's too few shells to spare.


Edited by Dunfalach, Aug 12 2017 - 01:03.


Dunfalach #8143 Posted Aug 12 2017 - 01:08

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This was a frustrating defeat last night, because it was a long down to the wire match that we lost mostly because of lack of vision. I had the armor to do a lot but not the vision to see all the hidden enemies to be able to utilize my armor better. 3.8k blocked by armor, 2.7k damage dealt, and 1.1k assist. But just not enough. There were simply too many tanks that couldn't be seen that gradually picked our tanks off.

 

http://wotreplays.com/site/3758022#fiery_salient-dunfalach-st-i

 

If I had realized how close we were to the end of game time at the end, I'd have played that finale a bit differently, turning around and diving into the valley to stay alive a bit longer rather than backing up looking for a shot at him.

 


Edited by Dunfalach, Aug 12 2017 - 01:21.


Projekt101 #8144 Posted Aug 12 2017 - 01:40

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View PostDunfalach, on Aug 12 2017 - 01:01, said:

 

I do still carry premium rounds on guns before the top gun, most of the time. Not as many perhaps, if I expect to get out of that gun pretty soon. Of course, it does waste some credits that way, but on the other hand many of the stock guns are actually top guns for previous tanks, so if you're keeping the lower tank than the rounds are shared anyway. And if you truly will never use the gun again, you can recoup half your credits by selling the ammo later from your depot. Don't sell it unless you're sure you'll never use it though!

 

Derp guns, it depends.

  • For the mid-tier 105s, I tend to carry about half and half HE and HEAT if it has a HEAT round, because a lot of your real damage potential will be relying on the ability of HEAT to go through enemies that have the hit points to need your full damage potential. The 105s really don't do very much damage if they don't pen, and their reliable pen is mostly the thinly armored lower tiers so there's a lot of situations where HEAT is good to have for punching higher tiers with enough damage to worry them.
  • For the 152s, on the other hand, their raw explosive power at that caliber can do damage even exploding outside the armor, and they have a bit more reliable base pen on the standard HE round, so I carry mostly straight HE. I do carry a handful of AP rounds on the Soviet 152s because they actually have enough pen to go through the side of some higher tier tanks and enough raw damage that exploding inside the tank can seriously hurt them. But I very rarely actually use them, because there's only occasional times where you know you're going to be in a good situation for them 20+ seconds ahead of time to be worth switching ammo from HE.

 

I still carry about 5 rounds of HE in most of my tanks, just in case, unless the tank has too low an ammo pool to allow it. Exception is autoloaders, since they usually have only a few clips so I'm not going to waste one on HE usually. I very rarely actually fire one in the standard tank guns, but I carry 3-5 rounds just in case unless there's too few shells to spare.

 

Good point about the stock guns being the top gun from a previous tier! I'll have to make sure to unload any premium before I move up so I can use any left-over ammo.

 

Thanks for the advice about the derp guns, it's good to have a preview of the things coming my way.



Projekt101 #8145 Posted Aug 12 2017 - 01:57

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View PostDunfalach, on Aug 12 2017 - 01:08, said:

This was a frustrating defeat last night, because it was a long down to the wire match that we lost mostly because of lack of vision. I had the armor to do a lot but not the vision to see all the hidden enemies to be able to utilize my armor better. 3.8k blocked by armor, 2.7k damage dealt, and 1.1k assist. But just not enough. There were simply too many tanks that couldn't be seen that gradually picked our tanks off.

 

http://wotreplays.com/site/3758022#fiery_salient-dunfalach-st-i

 

If I had realized how close we were to the end of game time at the end, I'd have played that finale a bit differently, turning around and diving into the valley to stay alive a bit longer rather than backing up looking for a shot at him.

 

 

Oh, man, I hate that feeling. They're out there and they're shooting you and you can't do a thing about it because you're blind. Vision control is something a lot of players seemingly never get a hold on in this game.

 

On a different topic: I'm not sure if it was another of your replays or someone else, but I've seen at least 2 from that map where a top tier heavy goes to that exact spot. It seems to me like a good place to get shot from several angles, but I'm just a noob. What is it about that spot that made you go there and (maybe more importantly) stay there as the battle progressed?



GAJohnnie #8146 Posted Aug 12 2017 - 05:58

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View PostProjekt101, on Aug 11 2017 - 19:57, said:

 

Oh, man, I hate that feeling. They're out there and they're shooting you and you can't do a thing about it because you're blind. Vision control is something a lot of players seemingly never get a hold on in this game.

 

 

But it is fun to be on the other side. I just played this game tonight. I knew we were not going to be able to brawl at heavy rock with our team comp vrs theirs. So I set up where I could exploit better vision. It worked really well since the heavies focused on me allowing the td to pretty much kill with impunity. Had a nasty surprise with the T-67 but all is well that ends well. Had a long string of bad games before this one so I was pretty timid in this game. If I been a bit more aggressive I might of done better then a 1st class badge. Oh and being able to make the guys trash talking in chat have to burn their x5 win on how little they did in this game was icing on the cake

 

http://wotreplays.co...nnie-vk_30_01_h
 

 

 

 

 

 



TheHQ #8147 Posted Aug 12 2017 - 10:09

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im in the middle of a 3 week vacation in china right now so i cant play. Then after i get back, its gonna be a week of rest then off to university. Guess i wont be playing much this year.

 

Oh on the note of HE, i find that tank guns with long reloads (11sec or more) takes too long to reload from AP to HE (this is more for tier 7 and up) when a lightly armored tank pops up. Chances are by the time youve managed to load HE, they will have moved or camoed up, making it better not to dab the 3 key at all. I tend to load less HE for tanks like the IS/IS2 (122mm gun 11 sec reload) than compared to say the SU-152 with the 122mm gun (5sec reload).

 

also, the changes to the french TDs have made my FCM36pak40 finally have some relevancy. idk what my crew is even tho: bia and skills thats make the gun more accurate on the move. seems to be the right skills tho



Projekt101 #8148 Posted Aug 12 2017 - 12:42

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View PostGAJohnnie, on Aug 12 2017 - 05:58, said:

But it is fun to be on the other side. I just played this game tonight. I knew we were not going to be able to brawl at heavy rock with our team comp vrs theirs. So I set up where I could exploit better vision. It worked really well since the heavies focused on me allowing the td to pretty much kill with impunity. Had a nasty surprise with the T-67 but all is well that ends well. Had a long string of bad games before this one so I was pretty timid in this game. If I been a bit more aggressive I might of done better then a 1st class badge. Oh and being able to make the guys trash talking in chat have to burn their x5 win on how little they did in this game was icing on the cake

 

Nice game there, GA.

 

If I have a bad streak of games, I tend to push harder instead of trying to slow down, so I probably would have been dead up at the rock in that one. That 'Calculated Aggression' thing biting me in the can again.



Projekt101 #8149 Posted Aug 12 2017 - 12:43

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View PostTheHQ, on Aug 12 2017 - 10:09, said:

Oh on the note of HE, i find that tank guns with long reloads (11sec or more) takes too long to reload from AP to HE (this is more for tier 7 and up) when a lightly armored tank pops up. Chances are by the time youve managed to load HE, they will have moved or camoed up, making it better not to dab the 3 key at all. I tend to load less HE for tanks like the IS/IS2 (122mm gun 11 sec reload) than compared to say the SU-152 with the 122mm gun (5sec reload).

 

Good point, HQ. Thanks!

SolidHex #8150 Posted Aug 12 2017 - 13:52

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One step (tank) closer to the Pz IV H.  Any tips on the Pz IV D (all kitted up but no crew yet)?

 

On vision control I also hate not having it when in a blind tank or be the one who could provide it but my map awareness isn't good enough to always exploit it (not to mention the lack of 6th sense).



TheHQ #8151 Posted Aug 12 2017 - 14:51

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View PostSolidHex, on Aug 12 2017 - 05:52, said:

One step (tank) closer to the Pz IV H.  Any tips on the Pz IV D (all kitted up but no crew yet)?

 

On vision control I also hate not having it when in a blind tank or be the one who could provide it but my map awareness isn't good enough to always exploit it (not to mention the lack of 6th sense).

 

so it seems the Pz 4 D is a poorly armored, decently mobile, with a high penetration 75mm gun that has poor gun handling when compared to the high penetration 47 and 57 mm guns found at the same teir.

 

Therefore the playstyle should be 2nd line peekaboom support tank. the APCR rounds should be able to penetrate all tier 6 tanks with heavy armor frontally given knowledge of weakspots save for the OI.

 

1.7k dpm is average but the pz 4 d should have the alpha avantage for most tanks of equal tier and lower.



GAJohnnie #8152 Posted Aug 12 2017 - 17:13

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View PostProjekt101, on Aug 12 2017 - 06:42, said:

 

Nice game there, GA.

 

If I have a bad streak of games, I tend to push harder instead of trying to slow down, so I probably would have been dead up at the rock in that one. That 'Calculated Aggression' thing biting me in the can again.

 

Yeah I dropped my W8 4 points trying to play through a bad streak last week. It like I play worse the harder I try to push thur a losing streak.

SolidHex #8153 Posted Aug 12 2017 - 17:59

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View PostTheHQ, on Aug 12 2017 - 08:51, said:

 

so it seems the Pz 4 D is a poorly armored, decently mobile, with a high penetration 75mm gun that has poor gun handling when compared to the high penetration 47 and 57 mm guns found at the same teir.

 

Therefore the playstyle should be 2nd line peekaboom support tank. the APCR rounds should be able to penetrate all tier 6 tanks with heavy armor frontally given knowledge of weakspots save for the OI.

 

1.7k dpm is average but the pz 4 d should have the alpha avantage for most tanks of equal tier and lower.

 

That seems to be what I've found out by research so far.  It's only T4 after all so it's said.

Dunfalach #8154 Posted Aug 13 2017 - 06:16

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View PostProjekt101, on Aug 11 2017 - 19:57, said:

 

Oh, man, I hate that feeling. They're out there and they're shooting you and you can't do a thing about it because you're blind. Vision control is something a lot of players seemingly never get a hold on in this game.

 

On a different topic: I'm not sure if it was another of your replays or someone else, but I've seen at least 2 from that map where a top tier heavy goes to that exact spot. It seems to me like a good place to get shot from several angles, but I'm just a noob. What is it about that spot that made you go there and (maybe more importantly) stay there as the battle progressed?

 

If I'm in myT-34-3 at tier 8/9, I'll frequently go play vision control in the usual light tank zone just because so often your light tanks die early and my crew actually gives my T-34-3 decent view range. Won't beat a dedicated light but it does tend to distract and annoy the enemy when I do it right.

 

As for taking my heavy to that particular spot, there's pros and cons to the position. The ST-I is not a hull armor heavy, so it can't really do much of anything on the 1 line. Once spotted, it's not that hard to kill in the open. Similarly, the very tall profile, poor gun depression, and weak maneuverability mean it's not very good for pushing the hill from the side I spawned on. I do sometimes take it hill when I spawn on the other side. But generally, that leaves very few places that the ST-I can actually function on that map because of the lack of cover. In the spot where I was, you have side protection from the rail line as long as you don't drive too far forward, and you're in low ground which means you're only really exposed to 1 line guns when you drive all the way up to the ridgeline. It's only when you actually push up that you get exposed from multiple possible angles, which is where you really have to manage your vision. I did okay at times and not okay at times on managing vision in that one.

 

The positive of that position is that it's the only place that can effectively flank the enemy hill force when you're on that side, because it offers firing points at their sides when they push up. You really have to pay attention to what the enemy is doing in front of you, though, or you're just giving them easy shots at your turret side. The ST-I has a strong turret, which gives it a little more leeway to risk that, but lacks gun depression which hurts it engaging frontally. If you have better vision than I did, you can also compromise the position of enemy tanks trying to snipe from the top of the rail line when you push up. I just didn't have the vision and gun depression to do it effectively or their Skorpion would have died much earlier in the match because his camo is what kept him alive in an exposed position. Lack of gun depression does make the ST-I not ideal for that spot, because the ground slope is pretty heavy, but the tall armored turret lets you compensate a little. An American tank with good gun depression and turret armor would be able to get away with more there.

 

It's also a spot that if you don't keep the enemy from pushing over the ridge, they can dominate your field force and compromise your 1 line if they've got decent vision, and do so from the visual cover of the trees that line the little valley there. So there's a measure of simply denying it to the enemy because it's actually a good position for the other team to come across once the hill isn't a threat to them.



Projekt101 #8155 Posted Aug 13 2017 - 15:42

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View PostDunfalach, on Aug 13 2017 - 06:16, said:

 

If I'm in myT-34-3 at tier 8/9, I'll frequently go play vision control in the usual light tank zone just because so often your light tanks die early and my crew actually gives my T-34-3 decent view range. Won't beat a dedicated light but it does tend to distract and annoy the enemy when I do it right.

 

As for taking my heavy to that particular spot, there's pros and cons to the position. The ST-I is not a hull armor heavy, so it can't really do much of anything on the 1 line. Once spotted, it's not that hard to kill in the open. Similarly, the very tall profile, poor gun depression, and weak maneuverability mean it's not very good for pushing the hill from the side I spawned on. I do sometimes take it hill when I spawn on the other side. But generally, that leaves very few places that the ST-I can actually function on that map because of the lack of cover. In the spot where I was, you have side protection from the rail line as long as you don't drive too far forward, and you're in low ground which means you're only really exposed to 1 line guns when you drive all the way up to the ridgeline. It's only when you actually push up that you get exposed from multiple possible angles, which is where you really have to manage your vision. I did okay at times and not okay at times on managing vision in that one.

 

The positive of that position is that it's the only place that can effectively flank the enemy hill force when you're on that side, because it offers firing points at their sides when they push up. You really have to pay attention to what the enemy is doing in front of you, though, or you're just giving them easy shots at your turret side. The ST-I has a strong turret, which gives it a little more leeway to risk that, but lacks gun depression which hurts it engaging frontally. If you have better vision than I did, you can also compromise the position of enemy tanks trying to snipe from the top of the rail line when you push up. I just didn't have the vision and gun depression to do it effectively or their Skorpion would have died much earlier in the match because his camo is what kept him alive in an exposed position. Lack of gun depression does make the ST-I not ideal for that spot, because the ground slope is pretty heavy, but the tall armored turret lets you compensate a little. An American tank with good gun depression and turret armor would be able to get away with more there.

 

It's also a spot that if you don't keep the enemy from pushing over the ridge, they can dominate your field force and compromise your 1 line if they've got decent vision, and do so from the visual cover of the trees that line the little valley there. So there's a measure of simply denying it to the enemy because it's actually a good position for the other team to come across once the hill isn't a threat to them.

 

Thank you for the excellent tactical overview, Dun!

 

It really helps to have an experienced player describe what they did and why it works rather than the usual "Go here because I said so" that so many people give as "advice".

 

Now I just have to get to work figuring out how to counter it in a medium when I see someone holding that position :)


Edited by Projekt101, Aug 13 2017 - 15:44.


GAJohnnie #8156 Posted Aug 13 2017 - 20:01

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Well saw BT in game last night and chatted with her breifly. Working 2 jobs so not in game much otherwise things are well.

mongoosejake #8157 Posted Aug 15 2017 - 03:16

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View PostSolidHex, on Aug 12 2017 - 07:52, said:

One step (tank) closer to the Pz IV H.  Any tips on the Pz IV D (all kitted up but no crew yet)?

 

On vision control I also hate not having it when in a blind tank or be the one who could provide it but my map awareness isn't good enough to always exploit it (not to mention the lack of 6th sense).

 

Been away from the forums for a bit, but if it's a German medium tank in question, I almost have to respond...

 

On the Pz IV D:

 

-The 75mm is the best gun on a tier 4 medium in my opinion, with the T-28's 57mm being a very close second. I rate the Pz's 75 just ahead of it based on the pen & alpha combination.

-The armor isn't great, but the tank has the ability to play vision decently well based on fair viewrange and good mobility (not real fast, but no slouch either), so you can flex around and be a real pain in even higher tier tank's sides. 

 

Set the IVd up for being a mobile sniper with gun rammer, vents, and binocs. The crew should have some viewrange, gun handling, and camo skills. So, recon for commander, snap shot for gunner, and camo for everyone else. Once you complete that 1st set, swap the commander to 6th sense, and restart recon. Keep the gunner on snap shot, and start camo. Switch the driver to smooth ride, and then restart camo. Switch the RO to Situational Awareness and then restart camo. Swap the loader to safe stowage and then restart camo. 

 

That's what I'm doing with mine, and I'm definently putting it into the "must keep" category of tanks. It's one of the absolute best tier 4's for regular battles.



Dunfalach #8158 Posted Aug 15 2017 - 04:07

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View PostProjekt101, on Aug 13 2017 - 09:42, said:

 

Thank you for the excellent tactical overview, Dun!

 

It really helps to have an experienced player describe what they did and why it works rather than the usual "Go here because I said so" that so many people give as "advice".

 

Now I just have to get to work figuring out how to counter it in a medium when I see someone holding that position :)

 

I will also say that is one of the most team composition dependent maps in the game because there are so many long firing lanes with no hard cover, which makes it easy to die if you make a mistake because it's hard to hide once you're lit if you over-extend even slightly. It's almost always a game of attrition. There are a dozen paths of one sort or another on the map, and at any given time probably 2/3 of them are a bad idea to move along, but which 2/3 changes constantly as tanks move and as tanks die. And most of the players on either team don't have the knowledge to stay alive forever.

TheHQ #8159 Posted Aug 15 2017 - 08:04

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yeah if your scouts are trash on firey salient, youve basically lost the game unless theres a med that can scout

GAJohnnie #8160 Posted Aug 15 2017 - 14:09

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I Mastered the PZIV on my 1st game. Of course, I cheat. I don't play stock, I use my premiums to grind enough free exp to upgrade a tank before playing.

 

I don't know if it becasue I know the game better now but the German teir 4s feel like much superior tanks to the other nations teir 4. I love my British Matilda, but the German teir 4s are better tanks then either the Matilda or the US/Russian offerings.






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