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Still confused about TDs and sight.


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Crenshinabon #1 Posted Jun 22 2011 - 01:16

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So it seems to me that tank destroyers just about 100% pwn any tanks.... sure people say light tanks can out maneuver them, but at the end of the day the light tank will fail and we all know that. How are tank desotryers fair at all? Do they get penealized in their Tier? Seems like I see them pretty regularly even on my tier 2 light tank. How can you convince me that these vehicles are fair?

Also question about sight. Even in a light tank it always seems like the enemy can see me first. I will be scouting around and BAM I get blown the fk up by something I never saw. Is "camo" just that fkin broken? That a tank destroyer can camo and wait till im literally on top of him and him 1 shot me? What good is scouting if I cant see anything? Is "sight" an ae radius? Or am I jsut seeing what is straight shot in front of me?

Also whats with things just "disappearing"? I am staring right at where I know something is and I cannot see him. I can literally pass right by something in a stupid bush and its literally 100% invisible to me. Is a green thing in a green bush not camo enough? Maybe no red dot would be enough. Invisible is broken. Or is this my computer bugging out?

What am I doing wrong?

DemonicSpoon #2 Posted Jun 22 2011 - 01:25

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At tier 2 you haven't really seen what TDs are, as they scale a bit weirdly in the early tiers. If you check the matchamking chart, tier 2-3 TDs are matched higher than equivalent tier lights/mediums because, as you suggested, they are a bit stronger than tanks of their tier. They used to show up in tier 1-2 battles, like tier 2 light tanks, but that was removed.

They do have notable weaknesses, though. TDs have very low hitpoints, and tier 2-3 TDs are open-topped (except for the AT-1) and thus are more vulnerable than normal to HE shells. Finally, they're pretty much meat for SPGs, which aim quickly at those tiers.

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Also question about sight. Even in a light tank it always seems like the enemy can see me first. I will be scouting around and BAM I get blown the fk up by something I never saw. Is "camo" just that fkin broken? That a tank destroyer can camo and wait till im literally on top of him and him 1 shot me? What good is scouting if I cant see anything? Is "sight" an ae radius? Or am I jsut seeing what is straight shot in front of me?

Firstly, light tanks don't get any sort of bonus to view range. In fact, open-topped vehicles like tier 2-3 TDs have MUCH better view range than an early-tier light tank.


Regardless, you seem to be taking the game's tank classifications too seriously. Many "light tanks" are actually more like medium tanks for their tier; only tier 4 lights are really considered dedicated scouts (and they're bad at it). What you're probably doing wrong is thinking that you can just drive around in the open because you're a light tank. That's not how that works.

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Also whats with things just "disappearing"? I am staring right at where I know something is and I cannot see him. I can literally pass right by something in a stupid bush and its literally 100% invisible to me. Is a green thing in a green bush not camo enough? Maybe no red dot would be enough. Invisible is broken. Or is this my computer bugging out?

If you know exactly where he is, whats' the problem? Just shoot at where he disappeared, and he'll die anyway.

Gaglug #3 Posted Jun 22 2011 - 01:34

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Ok, first things first.  Read this:   http://wiki.worldoft...attle_Mechanics

TDs are balanced fine.  They are actually a little underpowered (the weaknesses are greater than the strengths), but in the right hands with a smart player they are deadly.   If you play into the TD's hands...if you fight the way they want you to fight...they will kill you every time.   So don't fight their fight, change the situation to benefit yourself.

You haven't played past Tier 2, so you will not know the maps yet, you will not fully understand the tactics, and you don't know the correct responses to actions on the battlefield yet.   So TDs will seem scary to you right now.   A TD is meant to hide and ambush you, get the first shot or two off.  This is the only way they survive.   From your complaints it sounds to me like you're leading the charge in your T2 tank and getting lit up by the defending TDs.   This is working as designed, TDs are supposed to be able to kill you if you do that sort of thing.   Read the battle mechanics section of the wiki, it will help show what you're doing wrong.

DemonicSpoon #4 Posted Jun 22 2011 - 01:57

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They are actually a little underpowered (the weaknesses are greater than the strengths),

I don't agree at all - my SU-85 does better than any of my other tier 5s, for example.

Shaviv #5 Posted Jun 22 2011 - 17:42

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View PostCrenshinabon, on Jun 22 2011 - 01:16, said:

sure people say light tanks can out maneuver them, but at the end of the day the light tank will fail and we all know that. How are tank desotryers fair at all? Do they get penealized in their Tier? Seems like I see them pretty regularly even on my tier 2 light tank. How can you convince me that these vehicles are fair?

Also question about sight. Even in a light tank it always seems like the enemy can see me first. I will be scouting around and BAM I get blown the fk up by something I never saw. Is "camo" just that fkin broken? That a tank destroyer can camo and wait till im literally on top of him and him 1 shot me? What good is scouting if I cant see anything? Is "sight" an ae radius? Or am I jsut seeing what is straight shot in front of me?
Okay... for the first point? No, just no. Light tanks are much faster, and most are more agile, than TDs. TDs are slow and they turn worse than a ten-ton truck. Their armor is also fairly thin on the flanks and the rear, and not so strong in front either. If you want to kill a TD, think about how they're used... for sniping and ambush, right? Well, if you can't snipe back (e.g., your gun isn't precise enough, or isn't strong enough), ambush them back. Figure out a way to flank and hit it from the side or from behind. Track your target from the side or the rear and laugh at his bitter, bitter tears - because his gun doesn't traverse more than fifteen degrees off center at most. Then just come up nice and close and blast him at spitting range.

The other thing - one of the biggest factors in showing off your location is MOVEMENT. When you're rushing along, you are visible, and you will only be spotting other players whose tanks are rushing along. However, that doesn't mean your spotting is useless. You just have to do it where there aren't TDs or artillery waiting to ambush or snipe you. In PUGs this can be tricky, as you never really know what people are up to, but... over time I think you'll find that most TD players either block the "obvious" route or take up stationary positions along the flanks.

I drive a TD. When you are scouting ahead, driving along a clear road, I can see you easily at a very long distance, and you can't see me even if I'm not hiding behind bushes - because I'm not moving. So yes, meeting a 50mm shell head on can certainly ruin your day... but then again, it makes me visible, so your allies (especially your artillery) can easily flatten my lightly-armored arse. Seems fair.

I drive tanks and artillery too, fwiw; I'm not just sitting in a TD all day and munching up advance scouts.

CaptCrusader #6 Posted Jun 22 2011 - 18:58

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First off, TDs hide in bushes and shoot you before you see them. Thats what they are supposed to do. Also, a light tank spotting a TD has a more than fair chance to outflank him and hit him from the sides or rear. I do it all the time.

Secondly, you should always move like you were being targeted. Becuase you probably are. The spotting system at times feels wonky but there are many factors to consider and you may not be aware of all these in the middle of a firefight. You should move cover to cover, use the terrain to your advantage and any other tricks you can to move as safely as possible. Sometimes this isnt possible and you just have to do the best you can with what you have.

There are times when you will get blasted to bits and never see the guy shooting you, TD or not. These things happen. Take a moment to reflect on the situation and see what you may be able to do next time to avoid it.

Gaglug #7 Posted Jun 22 2011 - 21:20

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View PostDemonicSpoon, on Jun 22 2011 - 01:57, said:

I don't agree at all - my SU-85 does better than any of my other tier 5s, for example.

The question isn't "can I personally do better in this specific TD than I can in other tanks of the tier".

The question is, are TDs always the top vehicle(overpowered) for their tier.  And the answer to that is no, they are not.  Furthermore, if you compare the performance of all TDs in all tiers, you'll frequently hit seriously underperforming vehicles compared to the competition.

DemonicSpoon #8 Posted Jun 23 2011 - 06:34

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The question isn't "can I personally do better in this specific TD than I can in other tanks of the tier".

The question is, are TDs always the top vehicle(overpowered) for their tier. And the answer to that is no, they are not. Furthermore, if you compare the performance of all TDs in all tiers, you'll frequently hit seriously underperforming vehicles compared to the competition.

Tier 2-3: All of the options here are awesome, and in most cases better than equivalent tanks (That's why they're matched higher).

Tier 4: Hetzer and SU-85b are both awesome, far better than the tier 4 lights, and arguably better than the tier 4 mediums.

Tier 5 - SU-85 and StuG are both easily competitive if not better than tier 5 mediums/heavies.

Tier 6 - SU-100 and Jagdpanzer aren't amazing, but they're not awful either. I'd say somewhat weaker than other tier 6s, but not by much.

Tier 7 - The SU-152 is one of the highest-damage vehicles in the game combined with great camo. The Jagdpanther hits like a bus as well. Both are awesome.

Tier 8 - Not much to say, Ferdy and ISU-152, both really, really good (the latter arguably too good).

Tier 9 - Jagdtiger and Object 704. Enough said.



...No, you don't. TDS are always awesome.

SirBarnick #9 Posted Jun 23 2011 - 16:22

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View PostDemonicSpoon, on Jun 23 2011 - 06:34, said:

...No, you don't. TDS are always awesome.

Always awesome, eh?  We don't even use them in Clan Wars anymore.  Anything they can do can be done better with other tanks.  I know my particular clan (IR) hasn't fielded a TD in 2 or 3 weeks (much to the consternation of our TD drivers).  We don't see very many TDs in CW anymore either so other clans are noticing this also.

TDs have one glaring problem: no turret.  Once the T30 is re-classified as a TD then the Tank Destroyers will get new respect.  But until then they'll only see action when we can't field enough appropriate tanks.

To the OP:

A well camouflaged vehicle (100% crew + 100% camo skill + camo net) can stay completely invisible as close as 45 meters.  However, once it fires its weapon it will become visible as if it weren't hiding at all (meaning it can be seen at about 385 meters by a skilled crew with good visibility*).

There are lots of factors involved between both tanks and terrain.  Light tanks, especially the low tier ones, have terrible vision.  Tank Destroyers have lots of inherent camo ability, as well as crew trained in it plus nets.  This is one reason that TDs are so dangerous in low tier battles.


* This was from a test last night. Panther II with 100% crew + optics could not see a concealed JT when it fired while it was 385 meters away, but could see it when it was 380 meters.

Gaglug #10 Posted Jun 23 2011 - 19:08

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View PostSirBarnick, on Jun 23 2011 - 16:22, said:

Always awesome, eh?  We don't even use them in Clan Wars anymore.  Anything they can do can be done better with other tanks.  I know my particular clan (IR) hasn't fielded a TD in 2 or 3 weeks (much to the consternation of our TD drivers).  We don't see very many TDs in CW anymore either so other clans are noticing this also.

TDs have one glaring problem: no turret.  Once the T30 is re-classified as a TD then the Tank Destroyers will get new respect.  But until then they'll only see action when we can't field enough appropriate tanks.

^^   This.

I only feared TDs when I was first playing beta and first encountering them.  ("zomg the Ferdi is OP I can't kill it").  After playing a few thousand games, I've learned that while TDs can be very effective in the right hands, other tanks are even more effective in equally skilled hands.   TDs have situational strength.  There are circumstances you can set up to make your TD superior to the opposition it is facing.   However, a heavy tank will be effective in far more situations than a given TD because of the flexibility of the tank over the TD.

I realize that Spoon is a TD fanboy and he loves them.  This is fine, everyone can have a favorite vehicle type just like everyone can have a favorite color.   But if TDs were truly superior to the other tanks, you'd see more TDs than anything else being played in random matchups.  And you'd see them dominate clan wars.   But you don't see them being the dominant vehicle type in randoms.  And you rarely find them there in clan wars.  Why is that?   Because overall, players have come to the realization that TDs are in fact a somewhat less than optimal choice if your objective is winning.

DemonicSpoon #11 Posted Jun 23 2011 - 19:26

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Always awesome, eh? We don't even use them in Clan Wars anymore. Anything they can do can be done better with other tanks. I know my particular clan (IR) hasn't fielded a TD in 2 or 3 weeks (much to the consternation of our TD drivers). We don't see very many TDs in CW anymore either so other clans are noticing this also.

Good for clan wars. I don't particularly care. If "useful in clan wars" is the metric for whether something is good or not, then all but 6 or so tanks are useless.


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I realize that Spoon is a TD fanboy and he loves them.


You're dumb. Check my profile and see how many TDs I play (hint, it's exactly one: the SU-85.. And I played the SU-152 in beta).

Fodder #12 Posted Jun 23 2011 - 19:33

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TDs are the 2nd only to SPGs as the most dangerous vehicles on the battlefield, I will always target them first over normal tanks.  Left to their devices, they will decimate your ranks.

I used to fear them, but I've learned how to better handle them.  If you don't get 1 shot first without seeing them, that is.  Simply saddle up RIGHT next to them, and shoot them while preventing them from traversing towards you.  Gotta be frustrating for them.

Gaglug #13 Posted Jun 23 2011 - 20:41

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View PostDemonicSpoon, on Jun 23 2011 - 19:26, said:

Good for clan wars. I don't particularly care. If "useful in clan wars" is the metric for whether something is good or not, then all but 6 or so tanks are useless.

So you didn't address random play.

What's the most common vehicle type in randoms?   Heavies(once you've gotten to the tiers that heavies exist).   Why is this?  Because people want to play vehicles they think give them the best chance of winning, and the community has determined that heavies deliver this.

Homework:  Go play 10 games tonight.  Over all those fights, look at the total number of TDs played compared to standard tanks.  Then come back here and try to fanboy some more on TDs and say how they dominate every tier.

DemonicSpoon #14 Posted Jun 23 2011 - 20:44

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What's the most common vehicle type in randoms? Heavies(once you've gotten to the tiers that heavies exist). Why is this? Because people want to play vehicles they think give them the best chance of winning, and the community has determined that heavies deliver this.

Yeah, because heavies are very easy to drive and don't have obvious weaknesses, they are more common. They still have glaring weaknesses though - The recent renewed whining about SPGs can probably be attributed to the heavy population.

People aren't going to play tanks they think will give them the best chance of winning all the time, they play the tanks they want to play.

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Homework: Go play 10 games tonight. Over all those fights, look at the total number of TDs played compared to standard tanks. Then come back here and try to fanboy some more on TDs and say how they dominate every tier.
I didn't say they dominate every tier, I said they were good at every tier.




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