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Common Myths debunked.


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Priory_of_Sion #621 Posted Oct 23 2015 - 00:12

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Wake up sheeple. Do you really believe NASA? NEWSFLASH: the Earth is flat and NASA tells you it is round! How STUPID! 

stalkervision #622 Posted Oct 23 2015 - 01:19

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W/H complains I derailed this original thread I reboot it and the moon hoax topic is back once again. Why don't you guys start this craziness over in the OT section? :) 

 

 



WulfeHound #623 Posted Oct 23 2015 - 01:24

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You obviously need to get your sarcasm detector rebooted

Laceylace #624 Posted Oct 23 2015 - 03:18

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When is this thread going to get deleted? It's gone horribly arwy.

CK16 #625 Posted Oct 23 2015 - 03:27

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View PostLaceylace, on Oct 22 2015 - 20:18, said:

When is this thread going to get deleted? It's gone horribly arwy.

 

For once I might have to agree with Lacy here.....This needs to be closed and atleast cleaned up and if it goes back to this banns handed out to the ones who spew trash and derail it. 

Laceylace #626 Posted Oct 23 2015 - 03:28

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View PostCK16, on Oct 23 2015 - 02:27, said:

 

For once I might have to agree with Lacy here.....This needs to be closed and atleast cleaned up and if it goes back to this banns handed out to the ones who spew trash and derail it. 

 

at least we can get along when it comes to closing threads

Tanks_from_Mars #627 Posted Oct 23 2015 - 16:48

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It's called "Constructed Derailment."

 

Certain parties or individuals do things to sabotage threads in order to frustrate posters into giving up, on topics, points, opinions, facts, ideas, etc.  And by bringing down moderation micromanagement to threads that if any unrest is caused to certain points to the contrary you will either submit to one set of views or ideas, or else suffer retaliatory measures behind the scenes actions, or by thread locks, or other back door measures.  It's just another day on the forum.

 

Вы прадставіць нашых ідэй, або рашучыя меры рукі будуць прынятыя.

 

 


Edited by Tanks_from_Mars, Oct 23 2015 - 16:49.


Necrophore #628 Posted Oct 23 2015 - 19:12

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View Poststalkervision, on Oct 22 2015 - 16:19, said:

W/H complains I derailed this original thread I reboot it and the moon hoax topic is back once again. Why don't you guys start this craziness over in the OT section? :) 

 

We'd try, but all they want to talk about over there is tanks. :hiding:

stalkervision #629 Posted Oct 23 2015 - 19:35

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View PostNecrophore, on Oct 23 2015 - 13:12, said:

 

We'd try, but all they want to talk about over there is tanks. :hiding:

 

LOL ! Bring up the topic of cute girls and alcohol and that will soon change ! :) 

Chepicoro #630 Posted Oct 24 2015 - 02:27

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View PostTanks_from_Mars, on Oct 23 2015 - 16:48, said:

It's called "Constructed Derailment."

 

Certain parties or individuals do things to sabotage threads in order to frustrate posters into giving up, on topics, points, opinions, facts, ideas, etc.  And by bringing down moderation micromanagement to threads that if any unrest is caused to certain points to the contrary you will either submit to one set of views or ideas, or else suffer retaliatory measures behind the scenes actions, or by thread locks, or other back door measures.  It's just another day on the forum.

 

Вы прадставіць нашых ідэй, або рашучыя меры рукі будуць прынятыя.

 

 

 

 

 

But it is a shame to allow that behavior in a forum that could be funny and constructive.



blurr91 #631 Posted Oct 28 2015 - 01:55

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View PostCK16, on Oct 21 2015 - 12:40, said:

Normandy was the episode I think.

 

32:00 Mark it starts....This is exactly what you were describing...Its a memoir and not all memoir's are fact's...

 

History Channel, where truth is history.

blurr91 #632 Posted Oct 28 2015 - 02:03

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Memoir vs. after action reports

 

Anecdotal evidence vs. statistics


 

People win in Vegas too, but somehow the casinos still make money.  How odd...



Shanzival #633 Posted Nov 03 2015 - 21:43

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The casinos use Russian Bias.

FangTheCat #634 Posted Nov 04 2015 - 15:59

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I must admit, in my youth I read as much as I could and came away (in my early teens) with the view that it was Allied Air power that won the war and Germany was only defeated because of mass hordes of Russians, Americans (and in North Africa) ‘English’.

 

I came away with this view because the vast majority of the books (in the 60’s and 70’s) were memoires of airmen and Senior German generals. It’s now only later, with much more material available about the war on the ground and from the experience picked up working in industry for nearly 40 years that you start to see discrepancies and reasons for these discrepancies.

 

Your average Tiffy pilot was not a political animal and if he strafed and rocketed column of armour he would claim what he saw – big explosion? – vehicles driving into ditches – “Jolly good show old chap, pranged the bally Hun a good one there wot?”

 

Except most Pilots were not upper class twits and didn’t speak like that, but he would fly back and claim two tanks that he saw smoke coming from. Of course the other three pilots in the flight would probably have done the same and before long (after a bit bartering) they would probably claim 4 all told and 30 trucks. No harm done there.

 

Pilots generally being a bit brighter (and at this point in time – a longer life expectancy) than the PBI, he might survive the war and write up his memoirs once he’s demobbed and flying a desk in some large insurance firm, and you can bet your last teabag that he’s not going to be listening to any naysaying from the Army types – “4 panzers smoking – I saw it damn you”. In fact one of the more famous paintings that come from this period is “Rocket Firing Typhoons At The Falaise Gap - Normandy 1944”. So the myth of the Allied Jabo infiltrates the public conscious.

 

More damming though, these reports were collated and passed up the line and it’s there the politics really start kicking in and claims of the potency of airpower are inflated – even more so after the war in the interservice fights, Senior Air Force people making sure that their bailiwick is not effected by disarmament after war. Before long it’s the Airforce that won the war – especially when Monty disgraces himself and slags off everybody in his memoirs in 1958 (he was an unsufferable prick was Bernard, not as good as he thought he was, but not as bad as some on this Grate Site say)

 

At the same time those German generals who weren’t in a Gualag or hung by the allies were putting out their version of things – they were not defeated by skill but by overwhelming force, human waves of Ivans with T34’s on both shoulders, Thunderbolts firing M4 tanks at them, it’s all there. Basically some of them look like they are writing their CV’s to get a job in the newly formed NATO.

 

And as for the sitrepss that were published during the war, I can recognize those – did any of you ever have to write a report passing on bad news to a Senior Manager who was a total [edited]and was just  waiting to use your guts for garters? And bear in mind that these German commanders at that point in the war were not just going to get bollocked – or sacked, these lads were looking at firing squads if the Bohemian Corporal didn’t think they had done enough.

 

So no Bradley/Monty/Russian General outthought, outwitted and outfought us, no – it’s always something that they can’t account for – Deux Machinas as the Ancient Greeks would say, but Allied Air Power is always a handy excuse, especially as Goering is no longer the Fuhrers favourite.

 

I’m not defending anybody here, just pointing out that certain perceptions have been out there for a while and unless you do some balanced reading into the subject you won’t know any different. Of course you can lead a horse to water…

 

 

One point for ZInegata – you have stated that there was only Assault Guns at Goodwood – so how did Lieutenant John Gorman ram a Tiger II – I thought that was during Goodwood?

 



Zinegata #635 Posted Nov 09 2015 - 05:08

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Quote

One point for ZInegata – you have stated that there was only Assault Guns at Goodwood – so how did Lieutenant John Gorman ram a Tiger II – I thought that was during Goodwood?

 

I rechecked and the 503rd managed to get one platoon of Tiger IIs working into the fight at Goodwood, one of which ended up rammed by Gorman as famously recounted. That was a very short fight though, with at most five Shermans destroyed (most likely from the intact 88 battery at Cagny, which savaged other British regiments) and the rest of the battalion was basically out of it. In any case the Tiger battalion reported having only one working tank at the end of the day.

 

The two main armored actions was one regiment of British tanks versus assault guns from 21st Panzer, and another British regiment fighting Mk IVs and maybe Panthers from 9th SS Panzer. These accounted for something like 40 of the 100 British tanks destroyed; but basically gutted both German units as well who lost about an equal number of tanks and assault guns.


Edited by Zinegata, Nov 09 2015 - 05:14.


FangTheCat #636 Posted Nov 09 2015 - 11:52

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Cheers Zinegata.

 

The fact that the Tiger II’s had such little effect really underlines the pointlessness of ‘who has the best tank’ discussion. In all probability I bet there are very few people who even knew that Tiger II’s were used in Normandy – doesn’t say much for their impact on the battle does it. A unit of their heaviest Uber tanks disappears into the cauldron of Goodwood and nothing is ever mentioned by the fanboys and yet we still hear about how great Wittman/Tiger I was because he caught napping a bunch of dozy idiots who were stuck out on a limb…

 

 

Quote

These accounted for something like 40 of the 100 British tanks destroyed; but basically gutted both German units as well who lost about an equal number of tanks and assault guns.

 

 

Gutting the Panzer Div’s was what it was all about though. Yeah, they knew they were going to get a caning going for the Bourguébus ridge, as they broke out of the bocage engagement ranges opened up and the German high velocity A/T assets started to come into their own. So a narrow fronted armoured assault across open fields towards higher ground was always going to be painful. And it was -  21st Army Group lost a lot of tanks during Goodwood, but they achieved their aim which was to keep the focus of the panzer divs onto the area around Caen and in doing so attrited (‘write them down’ was the phrase that they used at the time) the panzers strength.

 

I think the whole ‘armoured clash’ element is often overstated, the allies had more tricks in their bag to defeat the Axis than just use tanks, the Germans taught the Allies a painful lesson in France 1940 (and later Tunisia) with their use of combined arms, over the next two years the allies absorbed these lessons amd became masters of it, so if it came to a 1 vs 1 tank situation then somebody somewhere on the Allied side had screwed up. The armour heavy balance of Goodwood was purely down to the Brits running out of infantry and having a surplus of tanks – up to this point they had not lost nearly as many as they had expected. The US 1st Army was going for another breakthrough attempt, so the Brits used whatever they had to hand to fix in place the mobile elements of the Germans, even though it went against the normal rules (and Monty liked his rules).



snoopdad #637 Posted Sep 05 2016 - 14:45

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Each weapon is a tool, and in the hands of the right person/persons...very deadly, or very weak.  Way too many variables and "what if's" for this scenario. 




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