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Truth or Non-Truth..The M18 Hellcat was one of the most successful tank destroyers of World War 2.

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4thTaterBattalion #1 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 16:47

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Just read this story.  True or not?

60 miles per hour (100KPH) under good conditions.  If so, I want one for my WoT. :izmena:

http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=250


 


 


 



Cognitive_Dissonance #2 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 16:58

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JagdPanther gets that distinction from a number of military analyst or informal polls by Military historians.

 

But as far as WoT, it may not hold true.



Meplat #3 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 16:58

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View PostMSgtTater, on Aug 19 2015 - 08:47, said:

Just read this story.  True or not?

60 miles per hour (100KPH) under good conditions.  If so, I want one for my WoT. :izmena:

http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=250


 


 


 

 

Much above ~35-40 MPH it's a pretty terrifying ride, even on smooth roads.  You're -at best- making suggestions to the steering brakes.

M_A_G_N_A_V_O_X #4 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 17:10

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About the JP, are those mostly Historians who are featured on the history channel? As for the hellcat, I though the slugger (yes I still call it that) was the most powerful America fielded since it mounted the 90mm

Cognitive_Dissonance #5 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 17:13

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View Posteat3reat3r, on Aug 19 2015 - 10:10, said:

About the JP, are those mostly Historians who are featured on the history channel? As for the hellcat, I though the slugger (yes I still call it that) was the most powerful America fielded since it mounted the 90mm

 

No. Don't be Jelly. the JP was way ahead of it's time, only 383 (approx) were fielded due to bombing of factories, and it came late to the War. Not even Herr Speer (despite his prodigious efforts to the contrary) could keep his armaments factories going at full speed near the end of the war.

 

If you would like, I can provide multiple links? Or authors and books?



TLWiz #6 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 17:13

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View Posteat3reat3r, on Aug 19 2015 - 11:10, said:

About the JP, are those mostly Historians who are featured on the history channel? 

 

Yeah, the same ones who are on Ancient Aliens, Ice Road Truckers, and Swamp People and the other peer reviewed historical shows fecal matter on the History Channel.

 

One of the best TDs of WWII?  Certainly the Hellcat and JPanther are both deserving of that accolade.  The JPanther was optimized for defensive engagements while the Hellcat was built for the offense.


Edited by TLWiz, Aug 19 2015 - 17:19.


Cognitive_Dissonance #7 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 17:18

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Seems like every time someone poops on American Armor, the anti-Wheraboo's bring up the History Channel. Sorry girls, my opinion is backed up by historical data outside of the realm of the History Channel . . . nice try.

Daigensui #8 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 17:21

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View PostMSgtTater, on Aug 19 2015 - 08:47, said:

60 miles per hour (100KPH) under good conditions.  

 

As in "we'll have to make sure to change components after this stupidly abusive run" good conditions



Cognitive_Dissonance #9 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 17:26

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View PostTLWiz, on Aug 19 2015 - 10:13, said:

 

Yeah, the same ones who are on Ancient Aliens, Ice Road Truckers, and Swamp People and the other peer reviewed historical shows fecal matter on the History Channel.

 

One of the best TDs of WWII?  Certainly the Hellcat and JPanther are both deserving of that accolade.  The JPanther was optimized for defensive engagements while the Hellcat was built for the offense.

 

Thank you for making that distinction between defensive and offensive. The JagdPanther was well suited to it's role as a defense ambush TD.

TLWiz #10 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 17:27

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View PostSmirkingGerbil, on Aug 19 2015 - 11:18, said:

Seems like every time someone poops on American Armor, the anti-Wheraboo's bring up the History Channel. Sorry girls, my opinion is backed up by historical data outside of the realm of the History Channel . . . nice try.

 

You do realize that "one of the most successful tank destroyers of WW II" is not the same as "The singular absolute best TD of WW II, right?"  The JPanther was amazing in its role.  Making fun of the "History Channel" is a separate fun activity. I doubt I qualify as an anti-wehraboo though.  :)  The JPanther had the much more rugged powertrain meant for the Panther II, not the fragile power train that hamstrung the Panther. Luckily for the allies, German advances came too late to translate into numbers on the battlefield.

Edited by TLWiz, Aug 19 2015 - 17:30.


Mechanize #11 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 17:28

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View PostSmirkingGerbil, on Aug 19 2015 - 08:58, said:

JagdPanther gets that distinction from a number of military analyst or informal polls by Military historians.

 

But as far as WoT, it may not hold true.

 

Yeah, that TD that had nearly zero impact in the war (arguably a detriment to the German war effort) was clearly the gold standard of successful design.

 

It was also years ahead of it's time which is why no one tried to copy the concept behind it at all and featured such wonderful innovations such as:



Mamas_Calvin #12 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 17:34

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I would put my vote with the Su100. Over 2000 were built and were operated long after WW2. The 100mm gun could deal with any German armor. It was simple and cost effective. 

Meplat #13 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 17:38

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View PostDaigensui, on Aug 19 2015 - 09:21, said:

 

As in "we'll have to make sure to change components after this stupidly abusive run" good conditions

 

More like change the driver/AD's skivvies, hose the vomit out and check the vehicle.  Other than the roadwheel tires potentially separating, it's not that abusive.

Cognitive_Dissonance #14 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 17:39

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View PostTLWiz, on Aug 19 2015 - 10:27, said:

 

You do realize that "one of the most successful tank destroyers of WW II" is not the same as "The singular absolute best TD of WW II, right?"  The JPanther was amazing in its role.  Making fun of the "History Channel" is a separate fun activity. I doubt I qualify as an anti-wehraboo though.  :)  The JPanther had the much more rugged powertrain meant for the Panther II, not the fragile power train that hamstrung the Panther. Luckily for the allies, German advances came too late to translate into numbers on the battlefield.

 

We are on the same page. Thanks for the clarifications. At least your realize it used a different power-train, and articulate the distinction between casemate vs. turreted TDs. I guess I should say, for it's class it was the best of the best of the best. Quote MIB.

CedricMacLaren #15 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 17:53

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While I might agree the JP was the BEST TD produced during the war, I wouldn't say it was the most successful. Had it not arrived so late and in such few numbers, likely so. It was used by several countries for a time after the war. I would say the StuG III and IV were the most successful except they were made in numbers greater than any other TD during the war and Germany still lost.  As for the Hellcat, it was no doubt successful. I believe I read the other day some are still in use today. The USSR put it through testing though and found it lacking. So......my vote is a tie between M10/Achilles and SU-85/100. 

HermanBix #16 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 17:59

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Concerning the M18 Hellcat, New Vanguard M18 Hellcat Tank Destroyer 1943-97 is an excellent read. Provides an interesting assessment on page 36.

 

"In retrospect, the M18 76mm GMC was a bitter disappointment. Tank engineering involves compromises between firepower, speed, and protection. This was especially the case with US tank destroyers since the weight constraints placed on the designs forced even greater compromises in terms of firepower or protection. The primary role of a tank destroyer was its ability to knock out enemy tanks in 1944, the M18 did not have enough firepower to effectively carry out this mission without exposing its crew to extreme risk. General Bruce's obsession with speed distorted the design and resulted in a poorly balanced tank destroyer. By focusing on a fanciful doctrine and ignoring the likely evolution of the enemy threat, Bruce and the Tank Destroyer Command concentrated on the wrong balance."


 

It goes on a quite a bit longer, but that is the general gist.


Edited by HermanBix, Aug 19 2015 - 18:00.


WulfeHound #17 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 18:04

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I wouldn't consider the Jagdpanther to be the best. It's quite large and heavy for the gun it has and despite the strengthened final drives, it was not that reliable as it could have been (being based on the Panther). The SU-100 had a lower profile and similar armor while also keeping decent mobility and an all-around better gun

Cognitive_Dissonance #18 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 18:08

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View PostWulfeHound, on Aug 19 2015 - 11:04, said:

I wouldn't consider the Jagdpanther to be the best. It's quite large and heavy for the gun it has and despite the strengthened final drives, it was not that reliable as it could have been (being based on the Panther). The SU-100 had a lower profile and similar armor while also keeping decent mobility and an all-around better gun

 

I would appreciate an education on the differences between the PAK (version on the Jagd) vs. the SU-100's, as I know nothing about it. 

 

Thanks!



WulfeHound #19 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 18:35

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View PostSmirkingGerbil, on Aug 19 2015 - 12:08, said:

 

I would appreciate an education on the differences between the PAK (version on the Jagd) vs. the SU-100's, as I know nothing about it. 

 

Thanks!

 

D-10 was more compact of a gun and had better penetration and HE shell compared to the PaK 43/3 (3.61lbs of TNT compared to 2.25lbs Amatol 60/40)

EnsignExpendable #20 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 19:03

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View PostSmirkingGerbil, on Aug 19 2015 - 11:18, said:

Seems like every time someone poops on American Armor, the anti-Wheraboo's bring up the History Channel. Sorry girls, my opinion is backed up by historical data outside of the realm of the History Channel . . . nice try.

 

You could, I don't know, post some? You're appealing to authority without making any mention of what that authority is.





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