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Truth or Non-Truth..The M18 Hellcat was one of the most successful tank destroyers of World War 2.

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WulfeHound #221 Posted Sep 03 2015 - 20:17

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Your self awareness is still less than 0, I see. I have said time and time again that if they did carry jamming pods, they were not used unless the aircraft absolutely needed them. (Such as self-defense, etc.) You have not understood this, in fact you've continually stuck your fingers in your ears and shouted "LALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALA". Any attempt to show proof results in you saying "your wrong!" and then repeating what you already said. 

One last time, the primary mission of WW aircraft was to hard kill SAM sites and enemy radar, not to jam it. Yes, they had jammers installed, but those were not used offensively. That was the purpose of the Shrike and Standard missiles in addition to the Mk. 82 bombs. Jamming pods were used as a defensive last ditch measure to ensure the survival of the aircraft and its crew. 



stalkervision #222 Posted Sep 03 2015 - 20:19

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View PostWulfeHound, on Sep 03 2015 - 14:02, said:

 

Except the PRIMARY mission of the EA-6A and EA-6B was electronic reconnaissance and jamming, NOT Wild Weasel missions. Yes they could be pressed into that role if needed to, but that was not the primary mission of the Prowler. Jamming =/= SAM destruction. During a jamming mission, the radar still works and will continue to exist after the jamming aircraft has flown away. SAM/radar destruction is exactly what it says on the tin, hard killing the guiding radar and missiles with bombs/rockets/guided missiles. The jamming pods carried by Wild Weasels (if they were carried at all) were used for self-defense ONLY.

 

Gee but they carried Shrike missiles !  Wonder of wonders...Moving the goal posts AGAIN...

 

WHAT radar "still works" ?   That is what Jammers are for !  To STOP it from working !  :)

 

 

 The e6a shows that radar jammers were not JUST used for self defense.


 

 Your even clueless on the single pod jammers.


 

 The PRIMARY way WW avoided sams was TO DODGE THEM !


 

 LOOK it UP


Edited by stalkervision, Sep 03 2015 - 20:23.


WulfeHound #223 Posted Sep 03 2015 - 20:32

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First point: Yes the Prowler could carry Shrike missiles, but you fail to understand that those were not the primary load out. 

Second point: Radar still transmits while being jammed, ergo it is still working. Jammers do not magically stop a radar unit from transmitting, they clutter up the screen.

Third point: EA-6's were specifically designed with the jamming mission in mind. Hence, the large and powerful jamming pods. 

Fourth point: look in a mirror. You think that a relatively weak pod (weak compared to the units on the Prowler and Raven) would be sufficient to jam multiple radar sites

Fifth point: That is if the launch was seen and could be tracked, allowing the aircraft to get to safety and allow it to hard kill the radar and SAM site. If it wasn't, then the jamming pod as well as other countermeasures such as chaff could be used. 



Cognitive_Dissonance #224 Posted Sep 03 2015 - 20:59

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View PostEnsignExpendable, on Sep 03 2015 - 12:48, said:

 

Why do you keep ignoring what I'm saying? No Soviet armour saw action that day. None. Stargard, Gertzlow, anywhere. They were either sitting in a forest or marching elsewhere. Stop picking at tiny inconsequential statements. You want to check Bix's actions? I checked them. They didn't happen. Go find another Jagdpanther ace that actually destroyed tanks as opposed to taking credit for them driving away.

 

I haven't ignored anything.

 

I have Russian sources saying it didn't happen, and a single German source saying it did (at this time). So in my mind, more work to be done, especially since Bix's account is oft quoted and used in history books, which really makes it important to research in my mind. You still have not equated Getzlow to any Polish city I have cited, and you have not commented on the area I circled in relation to that.

 

So in your mind, over, only Russian's can speak to this. In my mind, I have one record saying it occurred, one that says it didn't, so I am still looking for further references and will keep digging.

 

 



stalkervision #225 Posted Sep 03 2015 - 21:28

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View PostWulfeHound, on Sep 03 2015 - 14:32, said:

First point: Yes the Prowler could carry Shrike missiles, but you fail to understand that those were not the primary load out.

Second point: Radar still transmits while being jammed, ergo it is still working. Jammers do not magically stop a radar unit from transmitting, they clutter up the screen.

Third point: EA-6's were specifically designed with the jamming mission in mind. Hence, the large and powerful jamming pods.

Fourth point: look in a mirror. You think that a relatively weak pod (weak compared to the units on the Prowler and Raven) would be sufficient to jam multiple radar sites

Fifth point: That is if the launch was seen and could be tracked, allowing the aircraft to get to safety and allow it to hard kill the radar and SAM site. If it wasn't, then the jamming pod as well as other countermeasures such as chaff could be used.

 

  What you fail to understand is the prowler was a WW aircraft. I guess you have a problem with this obvious fact. That's why you resort to more silly "primary load" nonsense.

 Not every attack "up north" had WW participation.  It was NOT "normal operation procedure"  Only some did and mighty few at that depending on the importance of the mission and the sam and triple a threat.


 

 

 Radar being jammed "works" but does it really ? Technically it "works" but in actuality it really does not when being jammed.

 

Often sam operators would just turn off the radar altogether and ripple fire sams in the direction of the strike packages. What is the use in operating a now useless radar?  It just invites a anti-radiation missile attack with no benefits whatsoever.

 

 

 WW used their jamming pods in conjunction with the rest of the strike package that also had them. They were used in both of offensive and defensive modes.

 

 

 Most jammers are used this way .

 They would go in ahead of the strike package "jammers off" and hope to get a launch from sam 2's to use their shrike missiles which they would then DODGE if they didn't find any or didn't get sam radar emissions they would attempt to jam any enemy radar operating ahead of the strike package which could include NV airforce early warning radars and triple A

 

Your contention is that they were JUST use defensively is sheer nonsense.


Edited by stalkervision, Sep 03 2015 - 21:35.


WulfeHound #226 Posted Sep 03 2015 - 21:35

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The Prowler wasn't a WW aircraft. It was an EW aircraft, which led to completely different loadouts. Again yes it could be pressed into a WW role of nothing else was available, but that was not the primary mission of the Prowler. 

 

All EW aircraft are part of the SEAD mission umbrella, but not all SEAD aircraft are EW birds (see Wild Weasels compared to electronic recon aircraft such as the EB-57 or EB-66)

 

And yes, jammed radar is still working. As long as it is transmitting and receiving the radar is still considered to be functioning. The received data that's being displayed may just be a cloud of interference but the radar is still definitely working. 



stalkervision #227 Posted Sep 03 2015 - 21:37

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View PostWulfeHound, on Sep 03 2015 - 15:35, said:

The Prowler wasn't a WW aircraft. It was an EW aircraft, which led to completely different loadouts. Again yes it could be pressed into a WW role of nothing else was available, but that was not the primary mission of the Prowler.

 

All EW aircraft are part of the SEAD mission umbrella, but not all SEAD aircraft are EW birds (see Wild Weasels compared to electronic recon aircraft such as the EB-57 or EB-66)

 

And yes, jammed radar is still working. As long as it is transmitting and receiving the radar is still considered to be functioning. The received data that's being displayed may just be a cloud of interference but the radar is still definitely working.

 

Dude the marines had a version specifically labeled as WW and it was equipped with ant-radiation missiles or were those hung on the jet just for decoration? :)

 

and you being anal about your definition of "working"  As I told you these radars were often switched right off and visually sighted in the face of intense jamming. In fact later versions were EQUIPED with OPTICAL SIGHTING EQUIPTMENT !


Edited by stalkervision, Sep 03 2015 - 21:40.


stalkervision #228 Posted Sep 03 2015 - 21:45

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Here is a bit of interesting stuff you may like to read. It doesn't tell about optical sighting though..

Countermeasures and counter-countermeasures

Between 1965 and 1966, the US delivered a number of solutions to the S-75 problem. The Navy soon had the AGM-45 Shrike in service and mounted their first offensive strike on a site in October 1965. The Air Force responded by fitting B-66 bombers with powerful jammers (that blinded the early warning radars) and by developing smaller jamming pods for fighters (that denied range information to the radars). Later developments included the Wild Weasel aircraft, which were fitted with anti-radiation air-to-surface missile systems made to home in on the radar from the threat. This freed them to shoot the sites with Shrikes of their own.

The Soviets and Vietnamese, however, were able to adapt to some of these tactics. The USSR upgraded the radar several times to improve ECM (Electronic CounterMeasures) resistance. They also introduced a passive guidance mode, whereby the tracking radar could lock on the jamming signal itself and guide missiles directly towards the jamming source. This also meant the SAM site's tracking radar could be turned off, which prevented Shrikes from homing in on it. Moreover, some new tactics were developed to combat the Shrike. One of them was to point the radar to the side and then turn it off briefly. Since the Shrike was a relatively primitive anti-radiation missile, it would follow the beam away from the radar and then simply crash when it lost the signal (after the radar was turned off). SAM crews could briefly illuminate a hostile aircraft to see if the target was equipped with a Shrike. If the aircraft fired one, the Shrike could be neutralized with the side-pointing technique without sacrificing any S-75s. Another tactic was a "false launch" in which missile guidance signals were transmitted without a missile actually being launched. This could distract enemy pilots, or even occasionally cause them to drop ordnance prematurely to lighten their aircraft enough to dodge the nonexistent missile.



stalkervision #229 Posted Sep 03 2015 - 22:07

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It is pretty funny about this topic. Your are so worried about what the WW did that your don't realize that their part in the air was actually pretty small but they had a darn good press agent.  Offensive jamming by our aircraft was much more important in attacks up North until the Vietnamese found out how to get around it.

WulfeHound #230 Posted Sep 03 2015 - 22:10

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View Poststalkervision, on Sep 03 2015 - 15:37, said:

 

Dude the marines had a version specifically labeled as WW and it was equipped with ant-radiation missiles or were those hung on the jet just for decoration? :)

 

and you being anal about your definition of "working"  As I told you these radars were often switched right off and visually sighted in the face of intense jamming. In fact later versions were EQUIPED with OPTICAL SIGHTING EQUIPTMENT !

Please point out where the EA-6A was designated Wild Weasel. The primary mission of the EA-6A and EA-6B was aerial radar jamming, not hard killing radar. 







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